Moscow round 2

[Misha]

Or maybe I have a different perspective and value system than you do.. or maybe I was there and understand that complexity of the contradictions in a way that i am not able to express in hastily typed postings..

I will tell you what I have already told you many times. Marriage is hard. Two people must work together to achieve a good relationship. The fact that you want her to change, means that you are not entirely satisfied and she does not fit your value system. Again, my question is as follows: why do you want to settle for a woman? Yes, she may be a young hottie, but you are still settling.

[Sculpto]

I will tell you what I have already told you many times. Marriage is hard. Two people must work together to achieve a good relationship. The fact that you want her to change, means that you are not entirely satisfied and she does not fit your value system. Again, my question is as follows: why do you want to settle for a woman? Yes, she may be a young hottie, but you are still settling.

I want her to develop her creative talents in an environment free from censorship or the risk of bodily harm that she faces now.  Currently she is a fighter in every respect.. she is the most hardcore of all her friends.. they look up to her.. I love that about her.. and I want to see her evolve that... the things I in your words want to change are things that are going to change whether I want them to or not!  If I can create a positive environment, one that she can not even comprehend at this point, what is the harm in that? 

People change Misha.. if they dont I feel bad for them.  Illuminating a positive path for change is a positive in every possible way and since both of us have made a decision to be involved in an age gap relationship it is also pretty natural for things to be this way. 

She wants me to change too in some ways.  She wants me to lose more weight.. I dropped 30 lbs between visits.. she wants me to drop another 20 or so.. I do not always like how she states it.. but.. I know she is demonstrating that she cares about my health when she talks about it.  She wants me to be more active in helping her clean up.. nothing wrong with that either.

She knows which things in her I want to see her work on and develop.  Specifically to be more open minded about the world outside Russia and to temper her warrior spirit with wisdom and repsect for others.  She doesn't need to be a bulldozer to get her message across and I say that from experience.  The night we argued and she left she got to see me in bulldozer mode.. she didn't like it and I later reminded her that I mirrored how she had been treating me.  She blushed, apologized for the fifteenth time and we moved on.

It seems to me that we ARE in fact dealing with all kinds of obstacles and difficulties and so far are managing to get through them. 

[Mishenka]

Eric, seems to me you are doing just fine. Let love take its journey and settle into the place it is designed to be. Above all, give her your utmost love and support and watch her grow into the woman she is meant to be. Don't hold anything back.  She will see your heart and respond to what you give the best way she knows how. Don't worry about it, all will be fine.

mishenka

[Sculpto]

Eric, seems to me you are doing just fine. Let love take its journey and settle into the place it is designed to be. Above all, give her your utmost love and support and watch her grow into the woman she is meant to be. Don't hold anything back.  She will see your heart and respond to what you give the best way she knows how. Don't worry about it, all will be fine.

mishenka

thanks Mishenka.. I am trying.  One thing I know about myself is no matter what woman I am involved with I am going to question everything and have a long list of doubts.. when I was younger I could care less and was a lot more selfish about my needs.  That led me to a lot of heartache in the end and I think and hope I have evolved into a better person.

A wise person once said.. don't look for the right person.. be the right person.

I am trying to do that. 

[Wienerin]

Get it in your head please.. it was a coincidence she had my passport.  There was no conspiracy or manipulation beyond her "bad mood" performance.  What she did not calculate was that I would be ready to end the relationship.  I decided to give her another chance based on her explanation and promise never to do it again.  

SCULPTO, for some reason you reject anything that I tell you - which is based on knowing Russia and Russian life and mores for almost 50 years, which you must concede is a little bit better that any of the guys and gals who advised you here. And almost to the one they agree to some of the things I've said to you.

I didn't say - in the post to which you replied - anything about the passport episode, and I do not even give much weight to this (and I'm almost scared to say that I'm again not with you in your explanation. Russian-born simply doesn't forget such a thing as passport, one's own or someone else's - and if rushing away with it in one's purse will go to the greatest lengths to return it immediately... even a Russian internal passport, let alone American passport).

Despite the criticisms, many of which are legit and reasonable from a certain perspective.. what no one here is recognizing is that this girl and I have already managed to get through some very difficult situations...

Here is a little list..
her fathers illness
the attack in tomsk (still don't know what really happened)
15 months of correspondence before meeting IRL
and most recently a very non romantic and volatile visit.  

The operative words are "certain perspective". It seems to me that it's you who has this certain perspective, because almost anyone here has roughly the same. Knowing Russia, not knowing or not well, doubting same things that I do, or only judging her behavior from a general point of view - it's the same, something doesn't jibe. There are red flags amounting to the 1st of May demonstartion in the Soviet times.

In the last weeks - beginning with your awful experience with her, then reconciliation and explanations, and piling on of new details, etc. - I didn't tell you about more and more inconsistencies and strangeness in what you've written. There are more, however, and more again. But let's leave this alone for now. Or I could tell you in private, what didn't go down with me.

I'm very very sorry for your girl, and still more4 sorry for you. There's a Russian (and maybe not only Russian) old saying, though, that everything that happens happens to the best...

BTW, you layoff doesn't matter in terms of K1 visa - you have to submit the lighter version of Affidavit of Support for this - I-134, with less documentary load, and they would be concerned only with your bank account and the latest tax returns - i.e. when you were still employed.

I am also understanding today that no matter how she treated me, good or bad, her coming to Moscow to meet with me, when she knew the condition of her Father was close to the end, is a demonstration of a big positive.  She had a lot on her mind.. not a lot of money in her pocket, rode 3 and half days on the train all the time knowing her Father could die at any minute.  How about we give her a little credit for spending the time with me under very difficult circumstances.  I didn't pay for her travel.. I didn't pay for every single expense in Moscow.. she bought my metro card.. she paid for the Lada taxis every day.. sometimes she paid for the food, sometimes I did.. she brought a beautiful ring she paid for with her money and put it on my finger.

All of this comes as QUITE a lot of money - much more than a freelance junior reporter in a provincial newspaper would be able to earn and save. And living as a tourist in Moscow? Forget it...

My daughter-in-law earns - as a clinical psychologist with a university degree - roughly $700, my son as a certified Volvo mechanic in a dealership-bodyshop - 500-700|mos. They are able to make ends meet only because they have a tenant for my son's apartment, and with my help with clothes, shoes and emergencies like a blown up computer or the baby's insurance. This is in St.Petersburg, where they've lived all tgheir lives, and where life is much less expensive than in Moscow.

My brother visited with them last summer - that is he didn't have to rent an apartment, and certainly didn't go around in cabs. Aside from the plane tickets he's spent around 1500 - food, cafes, museums, trips to Moscow and Pskov, etc. Altogether his 3 weeks trip cost him 1 mos unversity professor's salary. Not Russian professor, here, in Chicago.

Lets give her a little credit ok?

Sorry, but I'll take the Fifth on this. And the big question is again - all this sacrifice, etc. would've been totally unnecessary if you went to meet her in Tomsk. And you'd learn much more about your girl in her natural environment than as two tourists meeting in Moscow. But you were told this before...

Again, sorry...

[Diplomacy]

Sorry to hear about her father passing, and the loss of your job. 

[Sculpto]

Wienerin,
You have said multiple times that you will not respond to my posts, yet, you continue to do so.  So, should I listen to you or not?  Should i consider you as changable and unpredictable?

You have one perspective on things.  You are entitled to your opinion.  But, you are not in the middle of this relationship, I am.

You make big generalized statements about how Russians are, yet, you do not take into account the exceptions to the rule.  You judge my scenario and that of my GF from only one perspective.  The best example is doubting how she manages to have money.  

Since her Father got sick she has been obsessed about making money to provide support to him.  When I was in Moscow and she was working she sent money to Tomsk three times and still managed to have enough left over to spend on me as she did.  I do not know exactly how she does it all, but, that is her business.  She didn't ask me how I make my money except to know that I work and I worked a lot of extra hours to afford the trip.  I know she was working 12-15 hour days for weeks before we met up in Moscow.  Her friend "M" also told me that "A" is just like that.. she will work three or four days without rest and then collapse in exhaustion.. that is exactly what I saw both before I went to Moscow and when I was there.

She works a lot.  She gets writing assignments from a variety of sources.  She gets lump payments and is not an employee of any newspaper or magazine.  She has also indicated she has borrowed money from friends to help support her fathers situation as well as travelling to meet me.  She sold all her excess gold two days before she got on the train to meet me.  Get it?  She borrowed money from her friends instead of taking travel money from me.  I have given her some money in the past, but its like pulling a tooth to get her to take it.  Today she took some.. I had promised her a plane ticket back to Tomsk if her Dad died when she was in Moscow.. and even at that she would not let me pay for the whole ticket.  300 dollar ticket.. she took $60..

The passport thing still obviously bugs you.  I didnt realize she had it until she was already long gone that night.  It was late at night and the metro was already finished.  No big deal.  She brought it back when she came over to talk the next day.  She also brought the ring she got for me and insisted I take it as a sign of her committment to me, even though I did not give her the ring I brought for her.  BTW.. in the flurry of postings I never did mention that I gave her her ring the morning before I left.  She cried.  

I am not about to say this girl is simple and some fantasy of perfect.  She isn't.  She is pretty but not a top model goddess.  Take off her makeup and she is just an average girl.  Its not about her looks for me.. its not about her flaws.. its simply all that she brings that has me bonded to her.  

I hope you all can understand that I AM REALLY DIFFICULT.  I am highly impulsive, could care less about treasure, have what some think are strange opinions, I can be exceptionally redundant (goes with the territory in my work) and I have lived alone most of my life.  I have half the hair I used to and was a solid 50 lbs overweight when I met her.  If she is putting up with me, with my flaws.. with my sometimes emotional rantings about a whole variety of potential topics.. with my desire to live and work in a backwater in Mexico.. etc etc etc.. and this girl is still interested in me?  I have given her LOTS of reasons to not be with me.. same as she has given me a fat handfull also.. yet here we are still together...

Now that her father is passed.. there is no impediment to me going to Tomsk.  I told her if I go to Russia again it will be to go in Tomsk.  She said of course and she will introduce me to everyone, family, friends, etc.  It may be that given my new parameters going to Tomsk could prove to be the best scenario for me as summer approaches anyway.  I know she would be really happy if we got married in Russia instead of here in the US, so, again given the new parameters it is not out of the question.  We will see what happens.

[Sculpto]

Sorry to hear about her father passing, and the loss of your job. 

Thanks Diplomacy.. though I am really sad for her I am pretty sure now that it is over she will be a lot more reasonable.  Now it is all past and not something that could happen at any time. 

As for my job.. I am going to take this as an opportunity and find the silver lining. 

[Wienerin]

You may be correct.. but you will never convince my Mom of anything you just said.  As far as she is concerned.. Borsh. blini. chopped liver. dark bread and prepared meats, pickles, and so on are Jewish food..

In fact.. one the topic of food.. I read an article in "Where" magazine which I picked up in Moscow that discussed what is really "Russian Cuisine".  According to the article there is no such thing as practically everything on the menu.. save caviar.. are foods co-opted from other cultures.  I have no idea of the truth of that.. but...

Oh, I'm sure I won't ever try to convince your Mom otherwise - I've had my own Ma until 4 years ago, - thank you very much for suggestion   And definitely all the4se foods and many more came to the US with the Jews emigrating in late 1800s - early 1900s, so that for America they WOULD be Jewish.

The arguments about what is or isn't some people's national/ethnic cuisine can be endless. First you have to define of what time/period/class you're talking, second - what area, because regional cuisines also differ, and in Russia, say, what they eat in StPetersburg would be very different from Siberia or from the South of Russia (Rostov on Don, etc.)

Also some stuff that is now considered indigenious was brought fromas far as China and the Americas sometimes. But so long ago and in many cases by such tortuous route4s, that nobody rightly remembers. Only a few days ago, when somebody was saying that there's no American cuisine, only borrowed stuff, I had to spend almost 40 minutes enumerating all the things that came from the Americas to the West, and then - to Russia. Like squash, pumpkins, all sorts of beans and peas, potatos, tomatos, corn, sunflower, bell peppers, turkeys and many more.

Tea and rice came from China, of course. Then remember that many national quisines didn't include meat dishes. For the simple reason, that only a very few could afford meat. If you are really interested, there is a good source where to learn about Russian food - try Russian Orthodox sites that carry the menus and recipies for fasts and Lent. The meatless and without any animal products like dairy, etc. recipies are sometimes hundreds years old. In short - cereals, sweetened not with sugar but with honey or jams/preserves, all sorts of pies - with potatos (let's consider it Russian/Ukrainian?Belarus, etc. ), cabbage, carrots, fish (not during Lent), wild mushrooms, berries, lentils, sweet peas, barley, wheat, buckwheat, green onions and eggs (no eggs during Lent) apples, etc., etc., etc. Huge closed ones, open-lattice ones like Danish, rolls, small pies fried in oil... Sweet pastry with nuts and honey. Gingerbreads, made with molasses. Vegetable soups - pickled cucumber soup, sour or fresh cabbage soup - schti, green schti - with sorrel or nettles. Beetroot or beet greens soup - svekolnik or what Manischwitz sell as "borscht", muchroom soup, pea and beans soups, barley and lentil soups... Potatos in all sorts and shapes, boiled, baked, in a stew or fried - with onions, mushrooms, etc. Sour pickles and cabbage, green tomatos and wild mushrooms...Or made into sort of latkes - potato patties.

One doesn't starve much even during Lent, does one? Russians've always loved their food... And then, of course, there would be bliny - which are definitely of Slavonic origin - as representing the Sun God, Yarilo ("Furious" - or something like this) - made with any kind of meal there was.

[Diplomacy]

Sculpto

Wienerin cares about you, I know that it may be hard for you to see.  She has been one example, of what we should all hope to have.  If she told me I was off base about something, I would listen.  She deserves some credit, she was way ahead of her time.  She is a cougar.


She like many women there, worked as many if not more hours than your girl.  She also raised a family at the same time.  I know you are going to do, what you are going to do.  I am fairly certain even Wienerin knows that fact.

You got more Russian blood in you then you want to admit.  You are as stubborn as any of the women there. 

We all have flaws, that is what makes humans interesting.  One thing I can say, you are interesting.  Your girl is interesting. 

I have learned over the years, you marry someone with the expectations that the flaws you see now.  You will see more of in the marriage.  Make sure that those flaws, are not what you find fascinating.  They tend to be points of contention years later, if that is all that attracted you to her.

You wind up in a mess. 

So now we will see what happens, when the scythe ran into a stone.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto

Wienerin cares about you, I know that it may be hard for you to see.  She has been one example, of what we should all hope to have.  If she told me I was off base about something, I would listen.  She deserves some credit, she was way ahead of her time.  She is a cougar.


She like many women there, worked as many if not more hours than your girl.  She also raised a family at the same time.  I know you are going to do, what you are going to do.  I am fairly certain even Wienerin knows that fact.

You got more Russian blood in you then you want to admit.  You are as stubborn as any of the women there. 

We all have flaws, that is what makes humans interesting.  One thing I can say, you are interesting.  Your girl is interesting. 

I have learned over the years, you marry someone with the expectations that the flaws you see now.  You will see more of in the marriage.  Make sure that those flaws, are not what you find fascinating.  They tend to be points of contention years later, if that is all that attracted you to her.

You wind up in a mess. 

Diplomacy.. you are making good points.. and I do understand all that.  I just think people have been really quick to judge.. you included.

My GF is very complex and not in any way one dimensional.  That is how i like it.  I could certainly do with a bit less drama.. but.. there is an opposite side to that.. a kind of passion that I am not going to write about here.. and I do not mean purely sexual..

in some of the postings people have worried that i am trying to control her or tame her or change her or something of the sort.  The reality is it is she who is taming me.  Don't forget who I am and what I do for fun.  Someday if we are ever having a beer ask me about the Mexican Bus... or the Portuguese donuts, or the Oregon Orgy or the many other stories of "conquest".  I promise you will be quite entertained and probably shocked. 

For me to even consider that I have found one female that I could remain loyal and faithfull to for the rest of my life is something that I never even thought would be remotely possible.  I hoped for it.. but i never thought I would find her.  Now that I have found someone that I can honestly look at myself in the mirror and say I can be not only satisfied but thrilled with her till the end of my days I am going to do all I can to be sure it can work, even if that means doing some things you guys do not approve of or what appears as putting up with bad behavior.  She is an extremist and so am I.. even if I didn't like her behavior I do not see it as being anywhere as close to out of line as most of you do. 

One friend of mine who is knoweldgable about all the details of this situation asked me a question a couple of days ago.  I had told him I am happy but frustrated with how the trip went.  Happy because even though she put me through hell for several days.. SHE came out of it feeling more confident about me and more confident to leave Russia to be with me.  But, her actions raised some doubts that I did not have before.. so.. my friend asked.. "if things don't go as you wish on your next meeting or when you finally get her over here will you be able to walk away from it?"  With no hesitation I was able to say yes.  I have lived through forcing myself to stay in a relationship because of some distorted sense of committment, to the point where I ended up broke and depressed.  I will nto do that again.  She is still getting the benefit of the doubt.. but.. her margin of error is a lot smaller than it was three weeks ago.

[Sculpto]

here is a list of real american food...

gumbo and all other cajun variations
boiled crawdads (i think they eatem in Russia too)
corn tortillas with meat on them.. called tacos in Mexico.. not sure what they call them in the Pueblo regions of New Mexico, they might just call them FOOD 
turkey with cranberries
anything with an avacado
chicken fried steak
bisquits and gravy (yum)
anythign with a peanut
chocolate (ok, its from Mexico.. but.. Mexico is America)
Texas Chili
California Burritos (not to be confused with burritas in northern Mexico)
peach cobbler
carolina, KC and texas style BBQ
onion rings
philly cheesesteak
clam chowder

ok cant think of anything else cuz now I am really hungry.. I am outa here.. off to the store  but feel free to add onto my short list..I can hijack my own thread right? 

[SANDRO43]

Sculpto, have a look at this post by Raven (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9248.0), it might inspire you for something more in your area, and it involves Ebay, too .

 

[Sculpto]

now that is free enterprise at its purest..

[Wienerin]

THank you, Diplomacy, you got it! I really care about SCULPTO, - he seems such a nice guy, and he is only a little older in years than my sons - and much less street-wise, especially when it comes to Russia

SCULPTO, I do not generalize, - don't know where've you got it. But when I see something totally inconvincing, then again and again, then something else, and things don't mesh together - what can I do, - it's a bunch of red lights.

But let's us not quarrel any further about things past at that. You try to mend your life in CA, wait for your girl to overcome whatever troubles she has, and look forward to your trip to Tomsk - it's certainly a lovely city with nice friendly people. AND - you'll see your girl in the place where she's at home, comfortable, within her own circle of defences, etc. This will give you much better understanding of her. And of yourself and your motives, OK?

As to who is easy or difficult, who is a fighter and rebel or not, who is overcoming and what, and who is a drifter - it's all very variable (BTW - you don't know anything about me and my life, - when you keep saying how special and unique you and your GF are... given that anyone - and four times so when a couple - is special and unique)

Again, if you want to know what makes my back-hair raise and not to discuss it in public, we can talk via the private messages.

[JR]

Weinerin stated, or rather understated that Russian don't mess around when it comes to passports. Having been to Russia with and without my X and having her mother here at least once a year for ten years, her father once I can state there is a near paranoia when it comes to their passports. But I would extend it to include other important documents also. They simply DON'T loss track of them. There are always exceptions but that is one rule which just might be the exception to the exception.....

[Mishenka]

Exactly right, Galina always carried my wallet and passport in her purse. Another good reason she never left my side, until we got to the airport to board my plane home.
Mishenka

[Misha]

Exactly right, Galina always carried my wallet and passport in her purse. Another good reason she never left my side, until we got to the airport to board my plane home.
Mishenka

Given the ease with which a skilled pickpocket can deftly open a purse and steal wallets and the contents of a purse, keeping anything of value in a purse is not something that I would recommend while visiting the FSU  :evil:

[Mishenka]

For some reason I always felt safe in Tashkent.  They seem to be nice loving family people.  It might also be because Im twice the size of the average man there. They are small people and rather light weight. I mean average guy is  5'2 and 110 pounds. The women look stronger than most the men. The last time Galina was robbed by a guy, she ran him down in the street and beat the crap out of him, then called the police and had him arrested. By the way, she is an Olympic markswoman. She hits the bullzeye on a target every time. I wouldn't mess with her. To bad they took her guns away   I told her when she comes to America she can start shooting again. She was all smiles.

 Mishenka

[Misha]

For some reason I always felt safe in Tashkent.  They seem to be nice loving family people.  It might also be because Im twice the size of the average man there.

Size or marksmanship will do little to help you against a good pickpocket. They will be long gone by the time you notice you were robbed 

[Mishenka]

Apparently this guy didn't run fast enough, she caught the guy and beat him senseless, screamed at him, making a scene. He was so stunned and embarrassed he didn't even try to leave before the militia got there. He had ripped the gold chain from her neck with her cross on it that meant the world to her. She wasn't about to loose it. The woman can take care of herself. I never was concerned about loosing anything or being robbed while with her. Moscow might be different. The crowds are larger,the crime rate is higher etc. I never felt unsafe traveling anywhere that I can remember.

Sculpto has traveld a lot, Ever felt unsafe Sculpto?

Mishenka

[Misha]

Sculpto has traveld a lot, Ever felt unsafe Sculpto?

Well, I have been traveling to Russia for over a decade. Once I watched a woman at a Moscow being robbed in a Moscow train station. She was very emotional trying to buy a ticket. Another walked up to her and stole her wallet, which I was watching her, and I did not see a thing. She calmly walked out and was long gone by the time the woman reached in to her purse and tried to pull out the wallet.... Trust me Mishenka, you don't want to put valuables in a purse in the FSU. It only takes one good pickpocket to make your life miserable if you lose you passport and all your cards and money  :evil:

[Sculpto]

All this talk of pickpockets.. Moscow does not especially feel like the kind of place where such problems are common.. but rather it appears prosperous and civil.  Sure there must be occasions when it happens.. but.. I suspect the incidence of petty robbery on the Metro is surprisingly low.  Just a guess.. no evidence..

Anyway, I am SURE there was nothing fishy about my passport ending up in her purse.  It was late when we got home and had the disagreement.. things happened fast.. I screwed up which is not common when I am in another country... though, jet lag was particularly intense this time.  She didn't hold it hostage.. or try and make it difficult for me to get.. as soon as I saw her next it was immediately returned.. no big deal.

[Wienerin]

All this talk of pickpockets.. Moscow does not especially feel like the kind of place where such problems are common.. but rather it appears prosperous and civil.  Sure there must be occasions when it happens.. but.. I suspect the incidence of petty robbery on the Metro is surprisingly low.  Just a guess.. no evidence..

Sorry to keep contradicting you but you're sooo wrong! The incidence of street crime - theft/robbery/mugging etc. in Moscow (and StPetersburg) is much higher than in NY and Chicago. metro, buses, etc. transportation, supermarkets and shopping malls, any line - even for museum and theater tickets, downtown street crowds and lonely alleys, - you name it. Almost every person I knew and know in StP and Moscow has been robbed at least once, many more than once.

[Misha]

Moscow does not especially feel like the kind of place where such problems are common..

That is why they say ignorance is bliss.