Hello Everyone!

[waterbug]

It's time for me to introduce myself and seek some advice from this esteemed group of FSUW-ophiles.   Please forgive me if I rattle on a bit for an ice-breaker -- I was referred to this site by an excellent interpreter I knew in Zaporozhye, and I have not been disappointed!  I have been lurking here for a while, soaking up wisdom and many interesting tales and perspectives, especially in the "Experienced" section -- myself, I have been to FSU 6 times in the past 6 years -- once to Russia (St. Petersburg) and the rest to Ukraine (many towns!), and I've enjoyed my travels immensely.  Not all my adventures have been trips to the moon on gossamer wings, but I've found them all interesting and fun in various ways ... hopefully I am a bit wiser, and I've definitely not given up!  (Obviously -- I'm here ain't I?   Allow me a little general flattery:  I'm really impressed with the sound perspectives and advice of many here -- especially the veterans with several stars and the wonderful FSU women who sometimes chime in with advice -- thank you all for your generosity of spirit!

So ... I am about to embark on my latest adventure:  I have my round trip tickets to Kiev -- I leave April 3 and return April 10.  This is my boldest yet -- my trip is specifically to meet one woman whom I have corresponded with for all of 2 weeks.  Obviously, I am a "risk-taker", I think we can all agree.   When I say it's my boldest, that's because 4 times I have gone on group tours (never again! and I should have written them off earlier ... oh well), and twice I have returned to visit a specific woman whom I met on a tour.  This will be the first time I've gone to visit one specific woman with whom I've only corresponded.  Feel free to give opinions on this move -- I'm describing it as "bold", but I acknowledge that some might have other terms for it.    At least I'm not one of those "pen pal" guys!    I do respect the RWD 10 Commandments, and some might construe this as contrary to #8, but I would submit that I have no intention of rushing into the *relationship* -- I just felt strongly enough that I wanted to meet this woman, which is (as often mentioned in this forum) the only way to see whether there is chemistry and we are comfortable with each other -- the sine qua non, of course!

And now for the requests for some reality checks. I have a generally good feeling about this trip, but there have been a couple of things that have made me nervous.  IMO, there are no obvious red flags, but I'm hoping some of the experienced guys and some of the nice FSU women will give me their perspectives on this.

In her first reply to my initial contact, T mentioned that three years ago she had gone to the U.S. (Las Vegas) on a fiancee visa, had spent 3 months there, and when "we realized that we could not live together", she returned home to Sumy.  In that letter, she said she would tell me later the reason.  Other than that little jolt, there has been nothing irregular, and our correspondence is going nicely -- we've both written some quite long letters over these two weeks.

A couple of questions she asked recently gave me pause, and I became curious if they arose because of this Las Vegas experience, because to me they are not typical questions in the early stages of a correspondence.  At the end of a fairly long and interesting letter, she asked the following questions:

"How do you imagine your life in five years? What should your wife do in the family? What are your responsibilities as a husband? What things will be forbidden for you and your wife? What would you do, if your wife or children did something, that you did not like? If you punish, how would it look like? What can be the reason of your divorce?"

The first three seem quite normal to me.  All the ones after the first three took me aback, because we had both been quite positive and upbeat otherwise, and these questions seemed to ... I guess "look on the dark side", which it seemed somewhat early to be doing.  (Opinions?)  They immediately made me more curious about what had happened in Las Vegas.  I had originally intended to let her tell me about that in her own time, since she had said she would, but now I felt compelled to ask if these questions had arisen as a result of that experience.

In the letter I received today from T, she described the Las Vegas experience in some detail.  It was not unlike other such stories I've read, in which the man apparently changed character when the woman arrived in America.  In this particular case, the guy showed her a 29-page "marriage contract" (probably a prenup), forbid her to speak to her son in Russian, listen to Russian music or watch Russian movies, restricted her calls to her parents to 5 minutes per week, was rude, punished her child "for little things" (not corporal punishment, though), gave all his love to his own 4 year old son, and a further litany of stuff, which I would call mostly "psychological harrassment".

Aside from not knowing the other half of the "he said/she said", it was clearly a case of undue haste on her part in agreeing to come to America to be with this guy. I can write it off as an honest mistake (though it puzzles me that she stayed the whole 3 months -- I think I would have been outta there, but it might be that she did not know her options very well), and it makes her questions understandable.  Still, I'd love to hear the opinions of the seasoned veterans and the FSU women!  Is this a red, orange, yellow, or yellowish-green flag?  Any aborted fiancee visa experience is not completely "green" ... and of course a lot could depend on the other side of the story.

The good news is that I'm sure I will find out enough from my visit to move on to a deeper relationship or to end it ... but I'm still very curious to hear perspectives from the wise ones here.  And it also might have some impact on how seriously I need to take Commandment #2 in this particular case! 

Thanks to anyone who's had the patience to read this far. I actually have lots more questions to ask on what I'll do over the next month (e.g., talk to her on the phone -- I haven't yet -- etc.).  It might help if I mention that she is 35 years old and her son is now 14, and there is about a 20 year age difference, which in itself is, of course, a risk factor.

Cheers,
Steve

[ScottinCrimea]

Welcome Steve!

My thought is that, based on her prior experience, her questions were not a red flag, just the typical RW directness.  Of course there are two sides to the story, but hers seems plausible and because of her experience I'm sure it will require some time before she is comfortable that the experience won't repeat itself.

My wife is also 35 years old (a 15 year age gap) and her daughter is now 17, so I have a similar situation.  We also have a RW friend here of a similar age with two teenagers who went through a similar bad experience but made the mistake of getting married instead of bailing out.  She chose to stay in the US instead of returning after her divorce.

How is her English?  How is her son's?

[Kuna]

Excellent questions...  I LIKE this woman.

Waterbug,

I would be MUCH more concerned if a woman wasn't direct and forthcoming...  and definitely you SHOULD be running if a woman is evasive.  I take her questions (like Scott) as typically direct.  If the directness makes you nervous you need to avoid RW.

As for an aborted K1 I (again) give her credit for this.  A lesser woman might stay and stick it out long enough to get the green card - or worst claim abuse and stay forever while the man fights charges.

Here were my thoughts when I read her questions:

"How do you imagine your life in five years?

Very reasonable question - AND thinking long term.

What should your wife do in the family?

Wants to know where you see a wife fitting into the family - VERY reasonable question.

What are your responsibilities as a husband?

What sort of man are you?

What things will be forbidden for you and your wife?

She's just searching to see if you've got any whacky ideas...  there ARE men out there with whacky ideas!

What would you do, if your wife or children did something, that you did not like?

Very sad a woman would be worried about treatment.  Only getting to know her and letting her get to know you - FACE TO FACE - will give her the confidence she needs to leave everything behind to be with you, or any man.  This is a GOOD thing.

If you punish, how would it look like?

Sad, very sad.  It's just so sad women (or anyone) needs to ask these questions.

What can be the reason of your divorce?"

This woman seeks security, not slavery...  and that is what we shold be offering.  I'd say her previous K1 scared her quite a bit and you may need to be very patient now.


In closing, welcome to RWD.  Congrats on giving up the tour game,  that stuff won't work for a serious man.  When you go to meet this lady take your time to get to know her and show her who you really are.  I would encourage you and all men to be real, leave no surprises regarding your character, and remember a GOOD UW/RW will leave much behind and she should only do this for a good AM.

Kuna

[waterbug]

Thanks to ScottinKrimea and Kuna for thoughtful replies!  ScottinKrimea's is especially valuable because of the similarity of ages in his relationship.  I feel much better now!  The directness of FSU women is no surprise to me, since as I mentioned I've had some experience with it, and I find it refreshing.  I also agree strongly that the experience she had was no doubt quite traumatic -- as she says, it took her a couple of years to get over it and try again.  I was only questioning my own judgment here, because I have a tendency to be too trusting sometimes. 

ScottinKrimea:  she says her English is "fair" and her son's is good -- of course, he picked it up quickly in the 3 months they were here.  I plan to ask her to talk on the phone asap, so I'll have more data then.  I should also mention that my Russian is "fair" -- I actually studied Russian for 3 years in high school, and in the past few years I have been studying from my textbooks (still have them all!) and the Rosetta Stone Russian courses.  I am also looking for a tutor.  I am quite serious in wanting to polish my Russian language skills -- it makes my trips so much more enjoyable to be able to have conversations with the Ukrainian people I meet (taxi drivers et al.).  It was my Russian teacher, who was a Russian himself and a really nice guy, who kindled my initial interest in Slavic history and cultures, so I had always wanted to go to FSU countries and these trips are really amazing and fulfilling to me for that additional reason.  Of course, like many here, I also find the idea of traveling to a distant country to meet my destiny to be very romantic.  To give you an idea of how romantic I am, my "theme song" for these trips is the theme from the James Bond movie "You Only Live Twice" (Natasha Atlas's version) ... check it out.

Cheers,
Steve

[Diplomacy]

Waterbug:

I agree with what was said so far.  The actions of that man, are textbook controlling husband.  This is a real example of what FSUW, could face when they come here.

[Gator]

Welcome waterbug.

In her first reply to my initial contact, T mentioned that three years ago she had gone to the U.S. (Las Vegas) on a fiancee visa, had spent 3 months there, and when "we realized that we could not live together", she returned home to Sumy. 

Not a problem.  On the positive side, it proves that she is not a GCG.  She will likely wish to proceed slower this time to be sure of your character, and a reasonable man would want to do the same.  

What things will be forbidden for you and your wife? What would you do, if your wife or children did something, that you did not like? If you punish, how would it look like? What can be the reason of your divorce?

Good, thought provoking questions.  Based on her past K-1 failure, she is asking you direct questions early rather than wasting her time.  She deserves an answer.  After you answer them, you should ask her the same questions.

It was not unlike other such stories I've read, in which the man apparently changed character when the woman arrived in America.  In this particular case, the guy showed her a 29-page "marriage contract" (probably a prenup), forbid her to speak to her son in Russian, listen to Russian music or watch Russian movies, restricted her calls to her parents to 5 minutes per week, was rude, punished her child "for little things" (not corporal punishment, though), gave all his love to his own 4 year old son, and a further litany of stuff, which I would call mostly "psychological harrassment".

This man was unrealistic and a control freak, certainly having no empathy for the difficult adjustment a RW must make when coming to America.  Phone calls are cheap and a RW should be allowed to call as much as she wants.  I get a little frustrated when my wife speaks to her children in Russian at the dining table; however, I always ask for a translation and the translation becomes a learning experience for the children.  My wife does not want her children to forget their Russian and I agree.  Punishment of a child is successful only if the mama and stepfather stand as a united front; otherwise, the child learns to play one off the other.

When answering her questions, you may wish to elaborate by contrasting your style with that of her ex-fiancee.

Overall, sounds good so far.  Yes, start talking to her on the phone as much as you can.

I wish you the best.

[waterbug]

Not a problem.  On the positive side, it proves that she is not a GCG.  She will likely wish to proceed slower this time to be sure of your character, and a reasonable man would want to do the same.  

Agreed!

Good, thought provoking questions.  Based on her past K-1 failure, she is asking you direct questions early rather than wasting her time.  She deserves an answer.  After you answer them, you should ask her the same questions.

Exactly what I did:  I answered them in as much detail as I could muster, and said I was most interested in how she would answer them herself -- which she did, very satisfyingly.  As a result, we have a stronger feeling that we are of like mind on these questions, so it was definitely beneficial to our trust in each other.

This man was unrealistic and a control freak...

Absolutely agree with all you say here.

When answering her questions, you may wish to elaborate by contrasting your style with that of her ex-fiancee.

Fortunately, that's not difficult. 

Overall, sounds good so far.  Yes, start talking to her on the phone as much as you can.
I wish you the best.

Thanks, Gator.  Again, I really appreciate the input from seasoned veterans.

Cheers,
Steve

[Faux Pas]

Like everyone else I would she her directness as a green flag. Seize the opportunity to be just as direct back. The only caution flag so far as I see it is 2 weeks communication but I also believe there is no time like the present. Many times early communications can peter out in the first 6-8 weeks.

As for her earlier K-1 it sounds believable but, you will never have his side of the story but, does it matter? I say no. Judge her on her alone. You've got enough experience from your prior trips and the experience from the tours that you learned you don't want that route. Trust your instincts.

Get her on the phone asap and let it flow.

[Tamara]

Steve,

I agree with many of the posts here.  Your lady is being straightforward and direct.  Her asking these questions also means that she is taking the correspondence very seriously and is thinking about relationship now and in future.  It is unfortunate she had bad experience in Las Vegas, but she was able to make a decision to leave! You commented on why it took her 3 months.  She came to the US with all expectations to get married, leaving everything behind and as many Russian women, probably thought she could change something.  Call her as soon as you can and, like Faux Pas said, trust your instincts.

Best of luck!

[waterbug]

Thanks, FauxPas and Tamara!  I especially value the input of an FSU woman, Tamara.    You make a very good point that she had made such a huge commitment just to come here so she wanted to give it a good faith effort -- that makes perfect sense, and I appreciate your perspective.

BTW, Tamara, I think you are in the Russian language teaching business -- do you know of any tutors that you could recommend to me in the Washington, DC area?

Cheers,
Steve

[ambach123]

Let me make you a prediction.

If you go, (and I am not sure you would); you will be back, with $3,000 lighter and no closer in your search. In this economy, you are lucky if you have $3,000 lying around for a "test". Just remember it is your money, not anyone else's.

It appalls me that some posters here consider " other men " as controlling freaks, but certainly not themselves. They forgot to look in the mirror.

Please allow me to quote the Bible, " Why is it that thou can see a sliver in your brothers' eyes, but can't see a beam in thine eyes".

Learn from the other guys experience, he was just one like you, and you would not fare any better.

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach, don't project your character flaws and failures onto others.

[ambach123]

You know how to read English? then read the quote from the Bible, read it again until it gets through to you. Then look in the mirror.

[Diplomacy]

Ambach:

Any fool can spit out the words of wise men.  It is not a matter of reading the bible, and you just do not seem to get it.  It is a persons ability to comprehend and apply the words, that makes one wise.

What is it?  One post the girl is too religious, another you are not religious and could not waste your time going to church, another you are in a Mosque and praying, another it is the time to hunt for your prey due to a bad economy, and now going over there is a waste of precious money.

You are in no position to quote the bible, let alone be demeaning towards others ability to read the Bible.  You are not wise, you are a cruel and heartless soul.  It is not a matter of judging, you feed all the information. 

The actions of a controlling man, are just that.  Do you see a lot of what you would do in those actions?  Are you ever going to look in that mirror, and ask if you would marry you?  If you took away all that precious money, would you marry you?

I assure you Ambach, you are naked.  The whole kingdom can see it, I just hope any woman you pursue can also. 

[ambach123]

Read the word of God, then look in the mirror. You describe yourself.
Some wise guy giving advise, give it to yourself.


Read it till it get through to your head; this man is  wasting his time and money. My advise is for him, it is not for the likes of you. Which part of it does not get through to you? You don' like it move on.

You don't know anything about me, I do very well.

[felix8787]

I have been to FSU 6 times in the past 6 years -- once to Russia (St. Petersburg) and the rest to Ukraine (many towns!), and I've enjoyed my travels immensely. 

So ... I am about to embark on my latest adventure:  I have my round trip tickets to Kiev -- I leave April 3 and return April 10.  This is my boldest yet

Cheers,
Steve

Let me make you a prediction.

If you go, (and I am not sure you would); you will be back, with $3,000 lighter and no closer in your search. In this economy, you are lucky if you have $3,000 lying around for a "test". Just remember it is your money, not anyone else's.

You know how to read English?

Ambach, before you question someone's ability to be able to read English, you need to ask yourself the same question. According to your prediction you make the assumption in your mind that he isn't going, when he clearly stated that he already has his RT tickets and the dates of when he is there and coming back.

So before firing off something so obviously foolish, quoting words from Ice Cube "check yourself, before you wreck yourself!".

[Misha]

Read it till it get through to your head; this man is  wasting his time and money. My advise is for him, it is not for the likes of you. Which part of it does not get through to you? You don' like it move on.

Why are you assuming he will fail? Based on his first post, I consider that he is clearly articulate, balanced, reasonable and level-headed. Much more than I can say for some of the posters. I agree that the odds of things working out with any one woman are a long shot, but as they say in Russia, if you do not take some risks you will never drink the champagne (i.e. be a winner).

[ambach123]

Misha, you are correct, and at least you are civil. Some wiseguys here would not know how to spell civil, talk about personality problems among those who seek mates in FSU.

From what I have been able to determine, and I am no authority, the women who came here once and did not succeed , rarely succeed the second time.

$3,000 is a lot of money for an average guy or any guy; it just does not make sense to blow it on a long shot.

He has other options where he can use the money more judicously.

[Gator]

Waterbug,

Ignore Ambach.  He does not know what he speaks of. 

Based on what Ambach has posted over the past year, his character seems very close to that of your woman's ex-fiance in Las Vegas.  Would you seek advice from the ex-fiance?

While you may be $3,000 poorer when you return, you admit that you are a risk taker.  With a high reward comes some risk.

[Misha]

From what I have been able to determine, and I am no authority, the women who came here once and did not succeed , rarely succeed the second time.

Why? It would be just as easy to say that all those who have been divorced should never marry a second time as they will rarely succeed. Yet, most seek love and a life partner.

$3,000 is a lot of money for an average guy or any guy; it just does not make sense to blow it on a long shot.

Maybe, but if this were the only consideration, no man should ever go to the FSU looking for a wife.

He has other options where he can use the money more judicously.

Remind me again, what was your motivation?

[brucen36]

Waterbug, you seem smart and articulate.  Just go for it.  Just remember, what you yourself pointed out in your post, that you have only half of the story regarding her previous experiences in america.  It would be interesting to hear his perspective, which is not possible of course, but interesting all the same.

[Diplomacy]

Ambach:

It is called equal force.  You want to marry in Nevada, so in your belief you will have an iron clad agreement.  Checked with a Massachusetts lawyer yet?  A woman will give up her life in the FSU.  You offer nothing, if you lose interest or determine that she is not worthy of you.

You say, of course there will be exceptions.  Are there exceptions written into this sinister plan of yours?  You are acting in a manner of using power and money for control.  You are in a warped way, controlled by your own money.

Are you looking in Turkey? Since that is what you say you felt at peace with.  Your time there, your sense of belonging.  Why search for the needle in the haystack, if you have the means to slither into the promised land?

You are quick to say the advice is not meant for anyone, but who you posted towards.  I think it is important for the poster, to gain proper perspective of the adviser.

You have yet to refute, deny or admit to anything.  It is always some other reason why you do not achieve.  You need to hold yourself accountable.  From what you have written, it is plain as day that you are your own worst enemy.

You clearly state, that you do not need to justify anything to people that are not wealthy.  What is the combined assets?  Wealthy is such a relative term.  Millions, tens of millions? Hundreds of Millions?

What good have you done with any of the wealth?  If it is some false sense of entitlement, you can be broke and have that.

It is estimated that half the woman that come here, marry a controlling man.  So her story is not only believable, but most likely true.  She had the strength to leave, and somehow try again. 

She has learned from this, and is asking better questions.  If anything waterbug may have stumbled into a gem.  Is there still risk, yes.  He knows this, and the statistics are not good on a K1 to begin with.

You got an array of reason, and one is the reason she stated.  You have an AM, who seeks to control, and goes to an area of economic stability and coerces he is someone else.

Then keeps her isolated, and in fear of her welfare.  It can be economic, physical, or emotional abuse.  Encouraged by the fact that, the women are fearful of their Native Law Enforcement.  She is often scared to go to American law Enforcement.

That is the profile, you are clearly putting economic abuse into play.  Trying to manipulate your own state laws, and marrying in what you feel is a more conducive state for your gain. 

IMO, for the above state reasons.  You are the pot calling the kettle black, talking of most topics.  The least of which is the actions of a gentleman and civility.

[Faux Pas]

Waterbug,

Ignore Ambach.  He does not know what he speaks of. 

Based on what Ambach has posted over the past year, his character seems very close to that of your woman's ex-fiance in Las Vegas.  Would you seek advice from the ex-fiance?

While you may be $3,000 poorer when you return, you admit that you are a risk taker.  With a high reward comes some risk.

Probably the best advice on this thread thus far. The lady's previous man and his side of the story is insignificant and moot. You judge the lady and as mentioned before go with your instincts. Keep in mind there are just as many men in this pursuit with nefarious intentions as there are women. There are good men and women as well. It is difficult to come to any determination on this lady or you from the limited information provided. However everything you posted points to honesty from the start, a very important requirement in the budding relationship. Jump on in, the water is fine.

You didn't give any indication of your financial situation. Ignore the remarks about the $3K. This pursuit requires much more than $3K. But you are aware of that from your previous trips. If this lady has interested you to this point she is a possible keeper and worth the trip. If it doesn't work out you'll still have some wonderful memories your friends back home will only dream about. Some advice given to me early on was "have a back up plan", I did but didn't need it. I hope you don't either.
 

[ScottinCrimea]

I think ambach lost a ton of money in the economic downturn and is now forced to rely on his personality, common sense and religiousity to impress people.   :evil:

[Makkin]

Ambian,

  Lot's of people have 3000 in extra cash bra' 3000 is not that much like in the old Ambian days.

  I suggest you leave people alone to decide how they wish to do things and don't be such a judge and jury. I'm sure you know a lot but actually many other people know a lot as well.

Makkin