Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

[BC]

Considering the current capitalistic economic turmoil, consider the following:

The cost of designing, constructing and maintaining ONE  ICBM was probably worth thousands or more tractors.  Consider submarines, tanks and a vast, expensive Army... and at the same time being able to support the best education and health structures.

Yes, the capitalists invested the same or more and ended up outspending the USSR, eventually eroding the substance and led to the downfall of the USSR.

Yet, over time we are now facing the downfall of a purely capitalistic system.

I wonder...

Had USSR and USA not needed a tit for tat escalation of military might, where would the world be today.

It seems every trillion dollar woe we see today could either be well managed with funds expended in the past for military might, or even avoided entirely had the world been a 'live and let live' environment.

Today, principles of 'pure capitalism' are crumbling in favor of a more socialistic structure.  We now hear of great programs to improve infrastructure, education and health systems, not to mention the biggie - economic reform and government control, just a year or so after accusing Putin of doing the same in RU.

Considering the rather fond, but not perfect memories of my wife and Babushka about USSR times I wonder if somewhere within there is a 'right' or 'wrong' yet to be defined, or maybe even recognition of valid middle ground appropriate for all.

[Misha]

Considering the rather fond, but not perfect memories of my wife and Babushka about USSR times I wonder if somewhere within there is a 'right' or 'wrong' yet to be defined, or maybe even recognition of valid middle ground appropriate for all.

Nostalgia has a tendency to make people remember the good and forget the bad. To base any analysis on nostalgic remembrances of the past would not be very productive.

[BC]

Nostalgia has a tendency to make people remember the good and forget the bad. To base any analysis on nostalgic remembrances of the past would not be very productive.

Agreed, but taking military expenditures of both sides over many decades, the current economic crisis would be a mosquito on the back of an elephant.

Both systems would have been quite viable if left alone IMHO.

[Gator]

In times like these, 95% of the conversations can be ended with the statement, "One can not invest in retrospect."

And do not forget the technological developments that came from military research and programs.

Today, principles of 'pure capitalism' are crumbling in favor of a more socialistic structure.  We now hear of great programs to improve infrastructure, education and health systems, not to mention the biggie - economic reform and government control, just a year or so after accusing Putin of doing the same in RU.

 

I know Euro types love Obama, yet the "socialism" I see in the Obama plan has me very nervous.  When he was gaining momentum as a candidate, I was against him because of his liberal voting record and the fact that he was promising everything without a plan on how to pay for it.  Upon entering office, my concern turned to hope because 1) his staff were centrists and 2) his success would be good for the country.  Now, I fear the worse.  I am really nervous for the first time in my life.

Yes, the economic downturn was well underway when Obama was elected on November 2; however, since then, it has got remarkably worse, a major reason is his lack of leadership.  America and the world needed something bold from him ("shock and awe" in the words of one guru).  Instead, he gave us a liberal platform in which the the brunt of the stimulus is defferred to later years.   We can not spend ourselves into prosperity.

I doubt that the government will be owning American corporations.  However, the Chinese could very well be the stewards of American companies.

On the positive side,  just another 6900-point drop in the Dow and we will start going back up.

[BC]

In times like these, 95% of the conversations can be ended with the statement, "One can not invest in retrospect."

And do not forget the technological developments that came from military research and programs.

Yeah, gave us microwave ovens.. something about hanging chickens on the radar antennae.. LOL  Anything else I missed?

I know Euro types love Obama, yet the "socialism" I see in the Obama plan has me very nervous.  When he was gaining momentum as a candidate, I was against him because of his liberal voting record and the fact that he was promising everything without a plan on how to pay for it.  Upon entering office, my concern turned to hope because 1) his staff were centrists and 2) his success would be good for the country.  Now, I fear the worse.  I am really nervous for the first time in my life.

Living for decades as a 'Euro type' her in Europe I often wonder how it is that I have somehow fared worse than those living elsewhere..  I think your fears are unfounded.

Yes, the economic downturn was well underway when Obama was elected on November 2; however, since then, it has got remarkably worse, a major reason is his lack of leadership.  America and the world needed something bold from him ("shock and awe" in the words of one guru).  Instead, he gave us a liberal platform in which the the brunt of the stimulus is defferred to later years.   We can not spend ourselves into prosperity.

Yeah, as hard as it sounds, I would tell the banks and AIG to suck it up and burn, but who knows what the effect of that would be.  Short term like a nuke, but long term wise.  Tough choices for sure.  Shit stinks.. and Obama knowingly stepped in a big pail of it.. don't expect his shoes to be shiny.

I doubt that the government will be owning American corporations.  However, the Chinese could very well be the stewards of American companies.

Thank goodness for those Chineese that also don't want to loose their ass..  Like many they are trying to save the value of their surplus USD, nothing more, nothing less.. certainly no favors.

On the positive side,  just another 6900-point drop in the Dow and we will start going back up.

I'm willing to bet a beer that the Dow will reach a low of around 3000... around the level it was when the USSR started fell at the end of 91.

Graph the figures on this page: http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dow.html

Coincidence?

[Misha]

Both systems would have been quite viable if left alone IMHO.

How? The Soviet Union was helped by the rise in oil prices in the 1970s as they started exporting oil and gas for profit, and these monies helped to support the regime. At the heyday of oil prices, they invaded Afghanistan. With the crash in oil prices in the 1980s, the system was crumbling and Gorbachev did his best to carry out reforms, but to no avail. Sound familiar?

[ConnerVT]

I had a related thought about this last night.  My family and I went to a friends house for dinner and drinks.  She is a young woman from Belarus, who works with my wife in a major department store.

They were discussing how many of the people where they work (especially the managers) are now greeting them with "Privet" and "Kak dela".  Even people who self profess never will they speak a language other than English.

So I suggested that for the 40+ years of the Cold War, the Soviet republic went about it all wrong.  Instead of spending all of that money on tanks, missiles, and bombers, what they should of done is enlisted the help of 100,000 or so young RW.  It would of cost much less to buy them all a new outfit, a new pair of boots, and parachute drop them behind enemy lines.

In just a few weeks, we would all be falling over each other, learning how to speak Russian.    

[BC]

How? The Soviet Union was helped by the rise in oil prices in the 1970s as they started exporting oil and gas for profit, and these monies helped to support the regime. At the heyday of oil prices, they invaded Afghanistan. With the crash in oil prices in the 1980s, the system was crumbling and Gorbachev did his best to carry out reforms, but to no avail. Sound familiar?

What would have been the net without the cost of the iron curtain? I think there would have been enough pie to pass around.

So I suggested that for the 40+ years of the Cold War, the Soviet republic went about it all wrong.  Instead of spending all of that money on tanks, missiles, and bombers, what they should of done is enlisted the help of 100,000 or so young RW.  It would of cost much less to buy them all a new outfit, a new pair of boots, and parachute drop them behind enemy lines.

In just a few weeks, we would all be falling over each other, learning how to speak Russian.    

Back in the 70's and 80's SU women were fat, hairy, and reeked. That's what we were taught. We didn't care whether they had bread lines or not..  Had we only known better..  As a GI, it was quite taboo to even go there in the first place.. the best the a few could do is get to East Germany (those without critical jobs, higher security clearances etc). 

[OlgaH]

Gorbachev did his best to carry out reforms, but to no avail.

I remember that time   when sugar disappeared from stores as many other goods  and my granny was arrested by militia because she was trying to sell a bucket of berries from her garden and it was called at that time the nonlabor income control  

[Blues Fairy]

What would have been the net without the cost of the iron curtain? I think there would have been enough pie to pass around.

Perhaps it was an inherent feature of the system that whatever "pie" came in was never "passed around".  You really believe in altruistic dictatorships?

[Misha]

What would have been the net without the cost of the iron curtain? I think there would have been enough pie to pass around.

BC, let us not forget that the goal of Communism was to foster a world revolution. The USSR was no more interested in living in peace than the United States. Also, keep in mind that the iron curtain was most fiercely guarded by the Communist states to ensure that their citizens did not flee to the West.

[GoodOlBoy]

..........Now, I fear the worse.  I am really nervous for the first time in my life............

Gator, IMO, I believe you have a reason for fear.

JMO, But, I am going to throw this out to the forum.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse

I think we may have already seen the "White Horse".

"I beheld, and lo a white horse; and he that sat on him had a bow: and there was given unto him a crown, and he departed as conqueror and to conquest."

Most people (not very many sane ones!) that even remotely agree with what I am about to propose would say I am referring to "Bush Jr." But, actually I am referring to Cheney (VP). I think and most historians in the future will agree, that he was the architect behind Bush Jr's "plans".

Btw... I am a Republican.


GOB

[BC]

BC, let us not forget that the goal of Communism was to foster a world revolution. The USSR was no more interested in living in peace than the United States. Also, keep in mind that the iron curtain was most fiercely guarded by the Communist states to ensure that their citizens did not flee to the West.

Sure, each pushed their own agenda that overlapped in conflict, more a which came first chicken or egg discourse.

The question was: Had USSR and USA not needed a tit for tat escalation of military might, where would the world be today?

Would both have been able to peacefully coexist peacefully with separate economic and political systems?

Your statement though does make me ponder a question:  How many wars were for the purpose of expanding communism, and how many trying to eradicate communism.. hmm..

[Shadow]

To add some oil to the fire (as Euro types like to do.  )
The reaction of MrsShadow to Obama's inaugural speech : This is communism.

All the talk of how everyone had to sacrifice for the greatness of the country, how the country would go back to its glory of the past sounded very familiar to her.

[Misha]

Your statement though does make me ponder a question:  How many wars were for the purpose of expanding communism, and how many trying to eradicate communism.. hmm..

I take it you are trying to retroactively rehabilitate and whitewash the Soviet Union and Communism. Let me list a few. The Soviet Union waged a war with Finland, certainly with the goal of integrating Finland into the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union also signed a pact with Hitler's representative splitting Poland between the two and giving the Baltic states to the Soviet Union and they promptly invaded both Poland and the Baltics following their deal. Following their invasion of Poland in September, 1939 (following the German invasion of Poland as agreed to in the secret Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact), close to 22,000 Poles were shot in the forest of Katyn. I presume these deaths don't count as only the evils of capitalism must be remembered 

[Faux Pas]

To add some oil to the fire (as Euro types like to do.  )
The reaction of MrsShadow to Obama's inaugural speech : This is communism.

All the talk of how everyone had to sacrifice for the greatness of the country, how the country would go back to its glory of the past sounded very familiar to her.

There's quite a few of us over here stating the very same thing. Although communism hasn't been achieved yet, we are clearly socialist. 

[Diplomacy]

I am not sure what we would call what is going on Faux, other than a Royal mess.  I agree with Mrs Shadow, those words ring true.

It is more troublesome that the checks and balances are getting ever closer to the left.  It is going to be a social reform, and a painful one at that.

We just spent and spent, it is time to pay up.  Does not matter now, who did what.  It is time to fix this mess.  It was a great run, but now it is time to turtle up a little. 

[Faux Pas]

I am not sure what we would call what is going on Faux, other than a Royal mess.  I agree with Mrs Shadow, those words ring true.

It is more troublesome that the checks and balances are getting ever closer to the left.  It is going to be a social reform, and a painful one at that.

We just spent and spent, it is time to pay up.  Does not matter now, who did what.  It is time to fix this mess.  It was a great run, but now it is time to turtle up a little. 

Agreed. I was telling some chaps while in a local political discussion last night, I hate to be negative but I honestly see no way out. Spending ourselves into prosperity has just never happened and for good reason. It doesn't work. I see a full throttle to Depression on the horizon. We are in the re-distribution of wealth stage of socialism. The house, senate and the administration just won't take no for an answer

[BC]

I take it you are trying to retroactively rehabilitate and whitewash the Soviet Union and Communism. Let me list a few. The Soviet Union waged a war with Finland, certainly with the goal of integrating Finland into the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union also signed a pact with Hitler's representative splitting Poland between the two and giving the Baltic states to the Soviet Union and they promptly invaded both Poland and the Baltics following their deal. Following their invasion of Poland in September, 1939 (following the German invasion of Poland as agreed to in the secret Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact), close to 22,000 Poles were shot in the forest of Katyn. I presume these deaths don't count as only the evils of capitalism must be remembered 

No, I'm not carrying a bucket of white paint in one hand and a broad brush in the other.  More like someone that has lived long enough to observe and question if stated cause and result matches what I see.

Personally I'm pretty much a 'what goes around, comes around' believer based on much that has happened in my personal life and see similar cycles on broader, worldly scale.  My questions posed in this thread are to find the lessons to be learned.

[Misha]

More like someone that has lived long enough to observe and question if stated cause and result matches what I see.

The thousands of Poles marched off to the forest for their execution did not have the luxury of living long enough to observe much did they. Yes, the Soviet Union did some things right, but that certainly did not excuse their guilt in the murder of thousands, nay millions, of innocent people.Yes, Communism did achieve some things, but at what cost?

[Shadow]

Misha, every nation that has fought to come in existence has to regret a lot of bloodshed.
Think of the French Republic, Germany, the USA, and many other countries, including Holland.
Or more recently, countries like Israel and Iran.
Ask the same question to the formation of those countries.

And just in case you wonder, the USSR did not reach communism, just a high level of socialism.

[2tallbill]

The problem with central planning socialism is that the planners no
matter how hard they try, no matter how clever, or educated or
honest make mistakes. When Central Planning socialists make mistakes
people die

The central planners can never adequately plan for everything. A
flood may cause a bearing factory to be closed. Suddenly you don't
have critical replacement parts for government made harvesters
(which have a bearing problem) and the grain which is absolutely necessary
for bread is left rotting in the fields.

This would never happen in a market economy. If Bills ball bearing factory
was flooded out then Bobs ball bearing factory (Bills competitor) would
supply the needed bearings. But none of this would be an issue since
a half dozen farming equipment supply companies would have the bearing
in stock.

And that wouldn't be a problem since there would be 10 different
brands of harvester all in competition and not just one state harvester. So if
John Deer harvesters had a bearing problem they would fix it, and have replacement
bearings at each of their dealers otherwise they would lose business to
the 9 other harvester companies.

If you multiply this one little problem which was completely unforeseeable
ten thousand times and then add in mismanagement, human errors, rosy
predictions, threats, politics, and, CYA because to be found making such a
mistake could be death anyone can see that Central planning socialism is
bound to fail.
 
Now imagine that state run system loaded with a few dishonest people
who only care about their little fiefdom and are so afraid to be caught
making a mistake that they allow things to happen even when they know
they it will be disastrous but they let it happen any because they were only
following orders.

The orders which might have been given by someone who had no clue about harvesters, bearings, etc, etc multiplied a thousand times in every industry,
service and occupation.

[Ranetka]

This would never happen in a market economy. If Bills ball bearing factory
was flooded out then Bobs ball bearing factory (Bills competitor) would
supply the needed bearings. But none of this would be an issue since
a half dozen farming equipment supply companies would have the bearing
in stock.

And that wouldn't be a problem since there would be 10 different
brands of harvester all in competition and not just one state harvester. So if
John Deer harvesters had a bearing problem they would fix it, and have replacement
bearings at each of their dealers otherwise they would lose business to
the 9 other harvester companies.

And what is happening to people who used to work at Bill's factory? A, yes, they all made redundant, heve is no jobs in flooded area so they can not sell their morgaged houses and finally lost them....

Now imagine that state run system loaded with dishonest people who only
care about their little fiefdom and are so afraid to be caught making a
mistake that they intentionally allow things to happen when they know they
would not be blamed if they were only following orders. The orders which
might have been given by someone who had no clue about harvesters,
bearings, etc, etc.


Is not it what have just happened in capitalists banking system? Ah, right, they knew they were doing wrong they just did not cared as this allowed them to "earn" millions, now they still have their money and taxpayer is footing the bill...

[2tallbill]

Ranetka, sorry I was editing my post apparently while you were trying to
comment on it. I should have edited it before posting it.

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, sorry I was editing my post apparently while you were trying to
comment on it. I should have edited it before posting it.

That's allright. I actually put my comments in but not sure if anyone will be able to find it...Ah, less arguments. I just think your last paragraph describes exactly what have just happened with (capitalists) banking system.