RW v UW

[ambach123]

I was talking to an agency owner who has branches in both Russia and Ukraine. According to him in his years in business since the year 2000, he has noticed more divorces among UW married to Americans than the RW who married AM. His rationale was that the economy in Ukraine is bad, UW had to get out, while RW did not have to, and that made for a better relationship with RW. ( Actually according to him there were very few divorces among his clients married to RW, but that may be just hyperbole)

Thereafter, I talked to the rep of a mega company for a personal tour, which has branches everywhere. His advise was to skip Ukraine and go to a secondary city in Russia such as Tver, Volgograd, and Nizhny Novograd.

Neither of them seem to have any financial incentives of selling packages in one country over another.

I looked up the Visajourney, the number of visas issued to RW was almost double of those issued to UW. Though judging from postings on this board, you would think that Ukraine is the country most go to.

[Gator]

Ambach,

You sure do enjoy being controversial.  It happens so much that I wonder if that is not your intent.

Regarding UW vs. RW, it all depends on the woman.   I do agree that one should shy away from desperate women, and you can find desperation in both groups.

[ambach123]

Gator, what is so controversial? I relayed to you what the two agency owners said without any comments. I have no knowledge of what they are saying is correct or not, nor do I have any opinion about it. But two different persons with considerable knowledge of this pursuit said the same thing.
They are selling personal tours, but in both Russia and Ukraine. Is their profit margins higher in Russia for them to recommend Russia, I don't know but I tend to think not.
The second company asked me to choose one of the three cities in Russia mentioned.

[mendeleyev]

I looked up the Visajourney, the number of visas issued to RW was almost double of those issued to UW. Though judging from postings on this board, you would think that Ukraine is the country most go to.

Ukraine is a normal sized country in Europe, one of many.

Russia blankets 1/6 of the Earth's surface, covers 11 time zones, is the only nation along the whole border of northern Asia, fills 60% of the entire Asian continent and sits on 40% of the European continent.

Ambach, if I understand your question you are wondering that if the number of RW visas is only double that of Ukraine, then does Russia remain uncharted territory? That is a good question.

Ukraine is easier to enter, less hassle while there, has become more Western in outlook (including some of the ladies' attitudes), and is easier to navigate around if you don't know any Russian or Ukrainian. Water flows downhill because its easier (gravity). Salmon swim upstream because they're on a mission. For all the reasons above I recommend Russia.

As for worldview, Russia is most definitely "East" while Ukraine has elements of East and West.

As to the advice you were given about secondary cities, I don't think Tver and Volgograd are the best choices. Tver might as well be a suburb of Moscow relatively speaking and Volgograd is well known and traveled.  There are lots of secondary cities in Russia which make for better prospects.

[ambach123]

The advantage of the three cities mentioned is that they have well known agencies in place, and also many ladies that speak English. Also the personal tour is managed by the companies with English speaking staff.

In the hinterland, I would not know where to start, and without knowing the language organizing on my own would be difficult if not impossible.

The total price of the personal tours is about 3K which includes introductions to about 15 Russian ladies. They cost about the same in Ukraine.

[Misha]

In the hinterland, I would not know where to start, and without knowing the language organizing on my own would be difficult if not impossible.

The total price of the personal tours is about 3K which includes introductions to about 15 Russian ladies. They cost about the same in Ukraine.

I take it things did not work out with the woman you met in Turkey and shared a spiritual connection with in the mosque 

[ambach123]

I have learnt something here on this board. Make no decision in haste. I would rather know many of them before finally deciding.

[topofthekey]

I have learnt something here on this board. Make no decision in haste. I would rather know many of them before finally deciding.

In trying to avoid saying something completely mean (regardless of how true it may or may not be). Most of the posts I've read from you seem to be what I would call off base. Maybe it is just the way you write, but generally I think it is what you write.

What is it with this UW vs RW stuff? I've seen it debated plenty on various boards in the past and it does get some people hot under the collar. So why bring it up? If anything shouldn't you just be focusing on you right now and not trying to start shit? I know I am.

[ScottinCrimea]

I have learnt something here on this board. Make no decision in haste. I would rather know many of them before finally deciding.

You didn't learn it here on this board because you ignored that advice as well as most of the other advice given you here.  Instead you learned it through two failed attempts to try to do it your own misguided way.  I see you are still trying to find the magic formula to guarantee a 100% success rate.  All your research into statistics and timelines doesn't amount to a hill of beans compared to what you could learn here if you would pay attention. Ultimately it comes down to one man and one woman and if either is flawed, no matter how you found each other, it isn't going to work out.

[Misha]

I have learnt something here on this board. Make no decision in haste.

I am not sure what you learned here, but the advice to make no decision in haste is usually given to men to encourage them to know one woman well before making plans to get married.

I would rather know many of them before finally deciding.

Well, that it what I have concluded already, that you are intent on "knowing" many women.

[Daveman]

Well through my travels I can see some subtle differences between RW and UW *in general*...  however, the sampling of ladies met through travels is minuscule compared to the female population of a country with a myriad of possible determining factors of which country of origin may only appear as the most likely uncommon denominator.

The answer to the question of divorce rates (UW/AM vs RW/AM) though, would be extremely speculative and could also be colored by nationality of the tour host.  FSU people have, from what I have witnessed, a rather unusual proclivity to pull statistics out of the air to support some very off the wall ideas about life in general (edit: forgot to add.. especially when MONEY is involved.. i.e. they lie their asses off). This could be another one of those situations.

[tim 360]

Ambach I am not quite sure why you give so much credibility to agency owners who would like to line their pockets with your $$$ and less to advice you have been given here previously.  I am sure there are great women in both Russia and Ukraine and most people are limited by the small sampling they have met and thus their general conclusions are inaccurate or limited.  There are millions of women in each country and generalizations are nonsense at best.

[mendeleyev]

What goes thru my mind when you mention tours: old geezers who will buy a bride, and with any good luck die within a few years so that she has plenty of time left to party, cause God knows she has no intent on changing his diapers nor will she get off while feeding him pureed vegetables over the next decade while he finds ways thru modern technology to dodge death's dark door.

A dating or marriage tour? Okay......

The advantage of the three cities mentioned is that they have well known agencies in place, and also many ladies that speak English. Also the personal tour is managed by the companies with English speaking staff.

In the hinterland, I would not know where to start, and without knowing the language organizing on my own would be difficult if not impossible.

Agencies in place?  Run while you can.


Not on your own? Then you shouldn't go in my opinion. Get prepared, then go. By yourself.

[ambach123]

That is the problem with some wiseguys here, it is always about the messenger, and not about the message, some people don't read or even don't care about the message.

The fact remains, is there a difference?

I believe from the stats posted here, most people found their mates through agencies, then why this holier than thou attitude? Is there a person here who has not used them? Of course there might be some, but not many. Whether they wrote letters through them and then met, or just went there and met, does not matter, it is the same.

I think going there, and meeting the selected ones without a long correspondence is better.

The agency owners have been around a long time, they make their money either way, whether I go to Ukraine or Russia. It would appear that neither of them has an axe to grind; both of these men in business are American born.

If the subject matter has been discussed before, a link would be useful.

If you  have something to contribute about the message, please do, otherwise move on. I would appreciate that courtesy.

[topofthekey]

That is the problem with some wiseguys here, it is always about the messenger, and not about the message, some people don't read or even don't care about the message.

Umm ok back to message. Both are countries with beautiful women where if you do the work you can find the right women for you. Now are you going to ignore us and go search in Iraq?

Seriously man do a search on the various message boards if you want to re-read the arguments. All that can be done is rehashing that anyways. If you want to get people all worked up at least do it on a topic that hasn't been covered to death and would actually be worth the read.

[mendeleyev]

Thanks for calling me wise! Why weren't you around to say that when my daughters were teenagers?!

No, didn't meet my wife via an agency. Met her while living/working there. Can name several others who did likewise on this and other fine forums. But we don't beat a drum about it either cause the bottom line is that it doesn't matter how you meet your other half, what counts is whether or not you are fully prepared.

Your marriage will be healthier if you'll prepare for the journey, learn some language--you don't need to be fluent but when it comes down to finding the love of your life, are you comfortable in needing 24 hour supervision when it comes to language and travel?

[Mir]

Women who want to leave for economic reason exist is both countries. Russia's oil and gas has made little difference to the life of the majority of her people.
Overall Russian women are more inclined to accept the idea of migration, that is MHO.
Certainly within Ukraine women from Eastern part and 10 times more likely to look for a foreign husband then those from the Western part. The economic situation being the same it is more due to the state of mind.

Yes Salmon goes upstream but for what? To lay eggs and die

[Shadow]

In general there will be more things similar between RW and UW as differences.
As you have met at least one specimen of both, what is your opinion about it ?

[ambach123]

John I will answer you, you are one of the nicest guys here. One experience of each does not make a case.

I thought the Russian girl had much broader view of the world than the UW.

One important thing I noted, the RW was very proud of mother Russia and that it is a "strong" country.  The UW was depressed over the condition of her country and often spoke about her country "dying".

Oddly enough the RW had more of a desire to assimilate into American culture, if and when she got here. The UW often spoke of " Other Ukrainians she could meet in Boston," when she got here, and wanted to remain "Ukrainian" even in USA. The RW never asked or cared.

It was my impression that the RW and the UW had very little love for each other as people.

They both want to get married ASAP and that they had found the " right man", the UW admitted that she wants to leave Ukraine. The RW never stated that; only "I want to bee wiz you, for all times".

I have some opinions about differences in sex as well, but those I would keep to myself.

From my experience, finding a loving and sexy beautiful woman is not a problem in either of the places; finding the right one, that is something else.

Again just my experience and does not make a trend.

[GoodOlBoy]

I have some opinions about differences in sex as well, but those I would keep to myself.

Please do.

Spare us all Casanova. 


GOB

[Gator]

That is the problem with some wiseguys here, it is always about the messenger, and not about the message, some people don't read or even don't care about the message.

I read your message.  You suggest that there is a difference, so large as to dictate where you search.  That is BS in my opinion.

The fact remains, is there a difference?

That is not a fact.  It is a question.  And the answer is nothing that holds true for all UW or all RW. 

I look at my two sons:  same womb, same father, same home, same schooling.  They are as different as night and day with regard to financial goals, social patterns, willingness to relocate, relationships with women, work ethic, etc.   

In other words, the individual variability among women is so great that you can find anything, anywhere.

Some men will advise that you avoid Moscow women because they are arrogant.  Some are, yet my born and raised Muscovite is far from it.  And within Moscow you will find many RW who have relocated there from the provinces.  I assert that such women will be 1) more receptive to relocation and 2) more flexible to a new country than those RW who elected to remain in the provinces.

It is obvious that you have not yet met the woman who really speaks to your heart.  You are wise to keep looking.  And the more you look, the more likely you will find her.  As you do this, I trust that you are developing a better understanding of yourself.

[Daveman]

John I will answer you, you are one of the nicest guys here. One experience of each does not make a case.

I thought the Russian girl had much broader view of the world than the UW.

That's interesting. My impression was exactly the opposite. If I look at my very small sampling of interactions, the Russian ladies with whom I've been in contact appeared to have a much more narrow view of the world.

One important thing I noted, the RW was very proud of mother Russia and that it is a "strong" country.  The UW was depressed over the condition of her country and often spoke about her country "dying".

This would coincide with my experience. 

Oddly enough the RW had more of a desire to assimilate into American culture, if and when she got here. The UW often spoke of " Other Ukrainians she could meet in Boston," when she got here, and wanted to remain "Ukrainian" even in USA. The RW never asked or cared.

Well, I don't think women from either nationality want to "become American". At least not at first.   Assimilation would be a rather slow process anyway, occurring over time. There are exceptions of course, but aside from Gator's wife, who completely hit the ground running on all cylinders, and doesn't really care to visit home, I don't know of another lady -- at least none whom I've encountered -- who has "become an American" as one her goals.

It was my impression that the RW and the UW had very little love for each other as people.

Well, this is something I found to be somewhat humorous. That rivalry.  It does exist to some degree.  I have listened to Russian women spout off about how all UW are stupid prostitutes, and the like.  I've heard some derogatory comments from UW about RW, but those usually were centered around what they perceived to be RW arrogance. 

They both want to get married ASAP and that they had found the " right man", the UW admitted that she wants to leave Ukraine. The RW never stated that; only "I want to bee wiz you, for all times".

The bold part seems to have been my downfall thus far.  Wham Bang, Marry me man!   I think a good bit of that has to do with the ages of the ladies in question.. mine have all been  32-33 and childless (edit: oops, not true, one was 28 -- but impatience was a major factor in all), so those biological clocks could have played a big role with the impatience. Or, It's entirely possible that I just wasn't man enough to hold their interest long enough to allow the relationship to grow.  I must keep in mind that the TRUE common factor in all of my relationships was, well, ME.

But of the three UW and one RW, none had "leaving country" as a priority, but Family/Children ASAP, so perhaps I was just a prop in the grand scheme of seed donorship. 

I have some opinions about differences in sex as well, but those I would keep to myself.

That's a good idea.  Though, I may publish a book on the subject in the future.. heh  But any differences there I think would have very little to do with nationality and more to do with experience, adventurous nature, blah blah.. etc etc... They pretty much rock in that category.

From my experience, finding a loving and sexy beautiful woman is not a problem in either of the places; finding the right one, that is something else.

Absolutely agree there.  But I think we also shoot ourselves in the foot chasing the wrong ladies for obvious reasons..  see skimpy/risque outfits thread... http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9172.msg172356#msg172356

Again just my experience and does not make a trend.

Ditto

[Shadow]

Mark, I think that your experiences have a good grasp.

First of all the world view. My experience is that both UW and RW can have a good view on the world, and both can ave a narrow one. It depends on education and personal interests.

As for love of their country, my experiences tell that UW love their country, but not the state it is in, and want to leave as they see little future in their own surroundings. Though the good ones will not leave with the first mule that wants to 'save' them. RW are usually more optimistic about their country and chances, but will leave for the right man.

Assimilation: in my experience both will want to learn the habits and language of the place they will live. However neither will give up their own background.

RW vs UW : In general the RW have mostly experienced Ukrainians as the US experiences 'Mexicans', hence their sometimes negative attitude.  UW will experience Russians mostly as tourists (who do not always behave as model citizens either) or what they experience is the news as 'Big Bothers'. Depending on the area of origin, Ukraine nationalist feelings might add to it.
Although they share history and culture, the people often consider each other as hard to get along with.

This is my experience, and as you see it matches quite well.

[OlgaH]

UW will experience Russians mostly as tourists

Maybe in western Ukraine. 

According to Ukranian data 8 years ago the number of Russian population in Kyiv was 20%, Ukranian population - 70%

In Donetsk region (2004) - 50% Ukranians and 40% Russians

Dnepropetrovsk (2001) 70% Ukrainians and 25% Russians.
Yulia Timoshenko was born in Dnepropetrovsk. Her mother is Russian and her father is Armenian.

Zaparozhye (2001) 60% Ukrainians and 30% Russians

Kharkov region - 60% Ukrainians and 30% Russians

Lugansk region- 50% Ukrainians and 40% Russians

Sevastopol - 74,4 % Russians and 20,6 % Ukrainians

Odessa region - 55%  Ukrainians and about 25% Russians

http://www.ua.all-biz.info/regions/?fuseaction=adm_main.showSectionsList&sc_id=8

 

[Shadow]

Maybe in western Ukraine. 

According to Ukranian data 8 years ago the number of Russian population in Kyiv was 20%, Ukranian population - 70%

In Donetsk region (2004) - 50% Ukranians and 40% Russians

Dnepropetrovsk (2001) 70% Ukrainians and 25% Russians.
Yulia Timoshenko was born in Dnepropetrovsk. Her mother is Russian and her father is Armenian.

Zaparozhye (2001) 60% Ukrainians and 30% Russians

Kharkov region - 60% Ukrainians and 30% Russians

Lugansk region- 50% Ukrainians and 40% Russians

Sevastopol - 74,4 % Russians and 20,6 % Ukrainians

Odessa region - 55%  Ukrainians and about 25% Russians

http://www.ua.all-biz.info/regions/?fuseaction=adm_main.showSectionsList&sc_id=8

 

This is based on passport statistics, which is probably quite different to the way the people actually describe them selves.