Statistical abberation

[facetrock]

  Call it tough love, cluebat or whatever term you want. To be fair KenC never said it was a good idea to marry a woman 25 years younger like he did. I remember him advising against it.
  To become engaged to a woman after one week and to one that you cant communicate with well is not a good idea in my opinion and almost all would agree with that. The same as most would say marrying a woman 25 years younger is not a good idea either.
Markus, would you really advise someone to do things the same way you did?

[Markus]

An afterthought somehow popped in my mind. Five years ago, I was the one discussing what I
was doing, trying to talk about my future.  Now, it's Kenc discussing what he did, trying to talk
about his past. Whether or not anyone cares or not, Kenc is doing some heavy thinking.
And whether or not it changes how he offers his opinions is something we will see.

Mark

[Markus]

Facerock,

I would be so rude to hijack Kencs thread. If your're serious, start a thread. But, consider
what the purpose of your thread is. I haven't seen a blueprint for success in marrying an
FSUW. I pretty much believe I've heard just about every opinion there is about my method.
But, I would probably just sit back and watch. I don't have need to justify anything.

Mark

[facetrock]

    It really makes no difference to me how people meet and marry or what age they are but.... When they come here for advice or post there story or whatever... I will give my opinion, they may not like but you will get the real me.

[Sculpto]

 I don't have need to justify anything.

If that is true why did you speak up?  If you really were taking the high road you would have let the fact that Ken brought up your name slide off of you like so much rain water. 

As an outsider to the whole incident it seems like you are taking pleasure in kicking a guy who is down who you perceive as having offended you in the past. 

[Markus]

Facerock,

I like that. In this process, it's not easy. It's more difficult than finding a lady locally. I
also think its good when other people offer their opinions to help other men.

My purpose though on my recent posts is to bring truth to what Kenc spoke about me.

Mark

[Markus]

Sculpto,

Good point. I used "anything" in that context that one could interpret
to mean anything. Anything had to do with my method. My main posts
are addressing the words that Kenc used as fact.  The anything post
had to do with Facerock asking me a question.

Mark

[ECOCKS]

WOW - no one can let this go or put it behind them. In its own way it's a fascinating case study in human nature. With only a little effort, watch me piss off both groups.

I understood the analogy.

The guy came to work, perhaps not seeking any sympathy, but his previous actions had already set his coworkers' mood to one of sarcasm and antipathy due to their joy at his loss.

Do two wrongs make a right? No.

Is it a normal, understandable  human reaction to treat someone this way when they had ignored advice, paraded an arrogant attitude or generally been a jerk/ass/twit or whatever? Yes.

Any of you who manage people, parent children or deal with customer service know this to be true. Employees react certain ways, irate customers vent their frustration on whoever is dealing with them and children act out while pitching their tantrums about the stupid world.

It's called being human. Don't be surprised when it bites you on the ass when you're down.  

All this is Ken reaping what he sowed and taking his dose from those he apparently upset. The fact that he is "man enough" and "honest" as evidenced by airing his personal issues on the forum changes nothing for many people. Think how many movies and parables you have seen where the arrogant jerks at the top get their comeuppance and have to live among the "little people" who they abused or ignored before. The point of them was that they hopefully gain a bit of humility and become better people after taking their own dose of the same behavior.

So like irate customers, little children or unreasonable employees, you let it play out and get it over with. Like customers, children and employees, the longer you respond to and make it into a conversation, the longer it lasts and the more bitter becomes the invective being bandied about.

Ah, straddling the fence and pointing out the problems with both sides, what a way to make friends and influence people.

Oh, and PS - I personally use the cluebat over half the time to poke fun at myself. Kinda' like slapping my own head and saying duh!

[krimster]

You know I really can't fault KenC and others whose relationships didn't work out.  Love is everything it's supposed to be. That's why people are so cynical about it.  It really is worth fighting for, risking everything for. And the trouble is, if you don't risk everything, you risk even more.

There is an ancient saying, "Where love is, no room is too small."  I would point this out to those who believe their marriage failed due to financial reasons.

I have been married for ten years now, if you asked me in my first year of marriage, did my wife and I love each other, I would have unequivocally said "Yes, of course!"  However, back then I mistook affection, sexuality, and mutual dependence to be love.

Like the Russian wives who followed their Decemberist Husbands into Siberia, love is something more.  When you share it with another person, they will never part with it - never!  Without it, all relationships are just temporary.

Today my wife and I are in fact very much in love.  We give as much as we can to each other, often sacrificing our own individual desires to do so. 

Love is an art based on one principle - the principle of giving.  If you do not know how to give then you do not know how to love.  If you do not know how to love then you in turn will most likely not be loved.

Yes folks, it is indeed time for a story, so here goes:

With gratitude to O. Henry

"James Dillingham Young and his wife Della are a young couple who are very much in love with each other, but can barely afford their one-room apartment due to their very bad economic situation. For Christmas, Della decides to buy Jim a chain which costs twenty-one dollars for his prized pocket watch given to him by his father. To raise the funds, she has her long hair cut off and sold to make a wig. Meanwhile, Jim decides to sell his watch to buy Della a beautiful set of combs made out of tortoise shell for her lovely, knee-length brown hair. Although each is disappointed to find the gift they chose rendered useless, each is pleased with the gift they received, because it represents their love for one another.

The magi, as you know, were wise men--wonderfully wise men--who brought gifts to the Babe in the manger. They invented the art of giving Christmas presents. Being wise, their gifts were no doubt wise ones, possibly bearing the privilege of exchange in case of duplication. And here I have lamely related to you the uneventful chronicle of two foolish children in a flat who most unwisely sacrificed for each other the greatest treasures of their house. But in a last word to the wise of these days let it be said that of all who give gifts these two were the wisest. Of all who give and receive gifts, such as they are wisest. Everywhere they are wisest. They are the magi."

The moral of this story is, make sure you understand what love is, and what it is not. 

Confuse-us reply to the question, "What is love?"

"Modesty and bounty, truth, earnestness, and kindness. Modesty escapes insult,  bounty wins the many, truth gains trust; earnestness brings success', kindness is the key to man's work."

[ECOCKS]

III

[acrzybear]

So Markus

All these terrible things that Ken C did you you happened over 4 years ago? And you're still pissed off?  You need to grow up and let it go, forget about it and move on.  

[KenC]

Marcus,
I don't know what you think you proved with your post accusing me of lies, but here is how I see what you wrote:

Truth vs. lie-

1. Kenc: "I was highly critical of his engagement after he met his wife only a few times and could not communicate with her."

I said you met your wife a few times before the engagement and in fact it was the first time.  So kill me for bing too lazy to look it up.  The fact is that it was nuts to get engaged after a few meetings and worse to do it upon the first meeting.  Forgive me for giving you more credit than you are worthy of.  Maybe you forget my comments on whether your engagement was ploy to get the paperwork going while the two of you really got to know each other or if it was a "true" engagement to marry.  At the time you said it was real.  My reference of a "few" meetings was incorrect, but does not change the meaning of what was said.

2. Kenc: I was hard on him because I thought he was nuts to take his coarse of action and did not want to see him fail.

Your supporting "evidence" that I lied here is not relevant to the above statement.  The thread I started was a valid and an important subject to explore and discuss.

3. The purpose again, was to help him avoid a potential mistake.

Again you comments are unrelated to your claims that I lied or misled.

4. Once he brought his wife to the states, I wished him well and dropped any negativity towards his actions.

Not only do your comments not support your claims of lies or misleading, they actually support what I stated.

5. Of course he has repeatedly thrown his "successful marriage" in my face and as in this thread comes back to attack my strong suggestions from the time past.

Your "supporting" comment is "Ah yes Kenc is correct here." nuff said.

So, Marcus, where are the lies?  I don't see any supporting evidence in what you posted.
KenC
   

[Makkin]

Krimster,

  I think you hit the nail on the head in regards to love.


   Define love....


   I suppose we can fall in love very quickly and also fall out of love over time yes? Is it the sexual content that makes us feel in love? When do we realize what love really is?


   My parents have been married for 55 years and if I get married now I will be 100 plus to reach that goal...lol. Some of the little things I've noticed are really little but they seem like magic to me. They know each other so well that when they do things for each other without thinking (seems to me) and it just seems to flow so easily.

   I cannot define love well for myself but I know when I am "in love" and at the same time I'm not sure if I will have the complete partner who wants love that is made to last since it takes two to evolve to that stage. Maybe I will find love and be in love but my goal is to have a love relationship that I will not be able to explain after many years and much hard worl.

Makkin


   

[krimster]

Thank you Makkin!

My youngest daughter is at the moment agonizing over the delay of her bean seeds sprouting.
I suppose love is like this, it happens on its own and in its own time.  Like my daughter, you can never be sure of the result of the seeds you plant, but nurture it and you might be surprised one day!

[KenC]

Ecocks,

All this is Ken reaping what he sowed and taking his dose from those he apparently upset.

Not exactly as my two most prominent attackers here have used lies, innuendos, projected their own past experiences as mine and now false accusations of me lying.  If they had just said "Ken was a pr!ck to me in the past and now I want to be a pr!ck to him" it would be much closer to the truth.  But let us look at that just a little closer now.  My comments were intended to help members here.  Whether you agree or disagree with my tactics or posting style is irrelevant.  

Maxx was posting about how terrible things were in his divorce and how he got screwed over.  The whole board was wrapped up in his misery.  I started another thread to give an alternative viewpoint of how good things could be.  (Such the pr!ck that I am) I have continued to tell Maxx here and on personal phone calls to let it all go and move on to seek his own happiness. (Again being such a bad guy)

Then comes Marcus, trying to desperately rub my nose in my misfortunes.  Supporting his actions with old debates and finally accusing me of lying about the past without any supporting evidence.  Sorry, but I will think that getting engaged on your first meeting a woman is irrational and will always shout that out to the membership here.  Adding the fact that you cannot even converse with this woman makes it worse.  Still, I am happy that Marcus defied the odds and is in a happy relationship after all these years.  Even a blind squirrel finds a nut or two.

You and others may not like my posting style or how I present my advice here, but that is not the issue here nor do I frankly care as I will not change much.  The bottom line here is that my intentions have always been to help the membership here.  Help them to make wise decisions and avoid mistakes.  I never took any joy in another man's misery, no matter how many times we crossed swords in the past.  That is what is so despicable about their actions here.  To gloat over another mans misfortune tells much of their low character, not mine.
KenC

[krimster]

Ken,
   I want to preface this post with a plea, I don't want to pick a fight, and I have no idea at all regarding the details of the conflict you have with Max/Mark here, so I can not possibly have any idea over who is right and who is wrong or who is truthful and who is not.  I won't pretend to have any knowledge regarding this, and even what I am about to write may be way off base, and I'm sure I could find plenty of issues within their posts as well, so disclaimers aside, let me begin.

You wrote

"Maxx was posting about how terrible things were in his divorce and how he got screwed over.  The whole board was wrapped up in his misery.  I started another thread to give an alternative viewpoint of how good things could be.  (Such the pr!ck that I am) I have continued to tell Maxx here and on personal phone calls to let it all go and move on to seek his own happiness. (Again being such a bad guy)"

Ken, could not your "alternative viewpoint" be interpreted by someone undergoing a seriously traumatic event as being condescending or even insulting to them?  If someone on this board wrote that he was hungry and without food, would it be the best thing for him to hear about the wonderful supermarkets near someone else's house?  If later, the person who proudly told everyone about how glorious his supermarkets were, also found himself hungry and without food, wouldn't it be only natural for the hungry to gloat?

From your standpoint you were trying to be helpful, but from their standpoint you were "putting them down" at a time when they were vulnerable.  Each of you would then consider yourself "right" in your beliefs and actions, and yet each of you could be "wrong" at the same time.  Everything is about how another interprets your words.  Could it be your words have simply been interpreted differently from the way you say they were intended? 

Max/Mark this of course applies to you as well. I can see that each of you REALLY do believe that you have been wronged by Ken.  However, I must tell you that the anger in you likely does not come purely from the result of Ken's words, but the words were merely a catalyst to unleash the bad feelings you already had, in other words, "they touched a raw nerve".  If so, your anger should be tempered, Ken did not cause your misfortune, if your separation was a sliced nerve, at worse Ken's offense was brushing against it.  Since Ken is now undergoing the same experience that caused you so much pain, maybe it is a good time to think the scales are balanced, time to heal old wounds and not let them fester.

I'll have to see your reply tomorrow if there is one, off to slumberland...

[KenC]

krimster,

From your standpoint you were trying to be helpful, but from their standpoint you were "putting them down" at a time when they were vulnerable.  Each of you would then consider yourself "right" in your beliefs and actions, and yet each of you could be "wrong" at the same time.  Everything is about how another interprets your words.  Could it be your words have simply been interpreted differently from the way you say they were intended? 

Valid point, I can understand how they could interpret it that way.  But also consider that it was for the greater good of the forum to present an alternate view.  And also please note, that I started a new thread instead of posting my views in their thread to be less confrontational.  That courtesy has not been returned here.

Maxx' story is important to this community.  It should be mandatory reading for every newbie.  But for a balanced view, so should they read some happy stories. Both sides need to heard.

As for Mark's getting engaged after his first meeting of a woman with whom he could not communicate, I would cluebat any and everyone who thought this was a good idea. Repeatidly, if necessary.  The danger is in having anyone thinking this is a good idea.  I think it is the responsibility of the experienced members here to guide the less experienced members to make decisions that would give them the best chance for success and to warn them against taking foolish risks.  BTW, I have always warned everyone not to do as I had done in marrying a woman so much younger.  I remember my good friend Gator, even making fun of me after such a statement indicating that it worked for me.  I still told him that it is a high risk path to take.
KenC

[Muddy]

I am with Markus on this one man

Grow up and let it go

I advice you to search for ladies closer to your age, 20+ years age gap is way too much bro

Good luck Kenny baby

[krimster]

g'day everyone,

Ken, thanks for your reply, a lot of people here have expressed admiration for your character, and I would like to do so as well (please, no one call me "fan boy, OK?)

you wrote
"Valid point, I can understand how they could interpret it that way.  But also consider that it was for the greater good of the forum to present an alternate view"

Ken, what you say may very well be completely true, but probably Max/Mark feel your comments weren't for THEIR greater good.  I think all of us, including you and me have made some mistakes regarding RW, all of these things are deeply personal and we all have different levels of sensitivity over a subject that is intimately tied to our self-esteem.  Not everyone would have Max/Mark's reaction, but I bet a lot would.

I can completely understand your desire for less confrontation, but others have desires as well, if we awkwardly step on someone's toes we have to understand they may shove us back, this is life...

As far as educating nOObs, (sigh...) Good luck with that!!!

If I were ever in your shoes and displayed just a fraction of the "grace under fire" that you have shown here, I'd be really proud of myself.  Max/Mark, there is something you can learn here...

[groovlstk]

I advice you to search for ladies closer to your age, 20+ years age gap is way too much bro

Good luck Kenny baby

Muddy, you already have one failed K1 under your belt, probably you should be more mindful of the glass in your own home before you throw stones at others.

[Gator]

If I were ever in your shoes and displayed just a fraction of the "grace under fire" that you have shown here, I'd be really proud of myself.  Max/Mark, there is something you can learn here...

I was about to write something, yet Krimster’s words trumped everything.

[Gator]

Gator,,, I seem to remember you from another life.   How's married life treating you?  I'm glad to see you are still around and kickin'. 

JB,

Life is wonderful; thanks for asking.  Sabina and I will celebrate our first anniversary next week. 

Although I question my sanity at times, I can’t think of a better alternative.  Perhaps it is egotistical, yet it seems so far that my adjustment has been more difficult than that of my little Russian tribe.  They still have a way to go.

I'll try to keep our little sidebar on topic by acknowledging that my marriage has a greater age gap than that of KenC's.  If I had the opportunity to revisit my decisions, I still would get married, and to the same woman.  And if I get 10 good years with Sabina as did KenC with Lena, I will leave the world happy.

JB, good to observe that the breadth and quickness of your mind is as exceptional as ever.  Life with Etna obviously keeps all of your cylinders clicking.  It would be splendid if somehow you do find the time and interest to join us periodically.  We miss you.

[Gator]

Muddy, you already have one failed K1 under your belt, probably you should be more mindful of the glass in your own home before you throw stones at others.

Your recall amazes me.   It's remarkable.    Knowing that you are around, maybe people will strive to be more consistent.

[krimster]

Muddy et al,
   You don't know me but I've been in the "game" for about 13 years now.  During this time period I have personally met upwards of 20 RW/AM couples, and have had some other form of contact with about 10 other couples.  I know two couples where the age differences were pretty extreme, in one case 60 and 28, and in another that you'd probably find hard to believe 70 (I'm guessing, based on appearance) and about 20.  Now my wife knew both of these women described here, and related their background to me, these women were abandoned and uncared for as children, grew up in extreme poverty (you have to stretch your mind over what a Ukrainian would call poverty) had a few relationships with Ukrainian "alchogoliki" which included physical abuse.  These "old men" were the first human beings to ever show kindness and offer support (financial and emotional) to these women.  Now, OK, I don't think they were "altruists", no just human like me and you.  Maybe you can find it within your heart to forgive them for defying convention. 

When I was in college, I had a classmate my own age, she and I met after class and we did our homework together in the library, we were "sympatico".  Soon though we were not just together in the library but just "hanging out" together.  We both then became aware that we were attracted to each other, so we started to date, but there was just one problem, she was black and I was white.  Now this was in a very different "less enlightened" time than today (yeah, right), so we got bad reactions from EVERYONE, black and white.  I don't really see a lot of difference between how I defied convention based upon race and how Ken and others did over age.  Sure, convention defying is risky behavior, but in my case our relationship didn't flower not because of us, but because of the people around us.  As I stated previously, the greatest is not taking any risks.  Even though my first inter-racial romance didn't work out, I feel I grew as a person because of it, and for a period of time, if only a brief one, I loved someone and they loved me, and really what could possibly be wrong with that?

PS, thanks Gator!

[KenC]

krimster,
Very good point made here.  The social acceptance of our marriage was always a struggle for Lena and I.  Many of Lena's younger friends could never understand or accept her love for me.  Over the years, a few even tried to lead Lena astray too.  As a tribute to Lena's character, let it be known I was always proud of how she properly dispensed with such attempts.

On the flip side, our older friends were more of a mixed bag.  The men seemed much more supportive of our relationship than the women.  I conjecture that the women felt threatened by Lena in that they feared their man might consider following my path.

Regardless of the reasons, we were never fully accepted into either catagory of friends.  Our relationship just never fit into their perceived acceptable parameters.
KenC