Thoughts from the farside

[SMS60]

I have gathered lots of information and opinions in the last year of reading and participating in this adventure. There are some things that always make me sit back and reflect and think.

So I'm going to write about them.

Please dont take any of the comments personally or in a degrading way. It is just the way I see things.

The women I talk about are very special ladies but in a way most people dont look at.

I'm not coming at this from the point of view of rich WM saving a poor FSUW.

I have read many times on here about items like,  can you afford this women? Can you give her everything she wants? She does not want to live in house trailer, She wants this, she wants that, are you up to all that, and it goes on and on.

When it comes to these type of questions I stop and look at the way things are and from where they are coming. And why they are thinking like this?

I have seen the small flats with paper thin walls, the small run down houses on the outskirts of the cities, the traffic, the lines, small salaries, no infastructure for the people, oppressive goverment, just an all around difficult life compared to what most westerners are used too.

I will use the house trailer ( trailer park ) as the first example. Everyone will jump up and down and say she does not want to be considered trailer trash and she wont be happy, ect, ect. But I have seen where she is living now. I would consider it 100 times worse than living in a trailer park. So why would she not be happy? The men on here would discourage a man from looking if he was to bring a women back to house trailer home. WHY?

Their happiness is not with material items. They are happy "within" not with the material world. But people never talk about this when they discuss how to find a women from the FSU. Its all about lifestyle and materials things.

Next, I always read about jobs and her not being happy with just any job. WHY? I have seen the work from where she comes from. I would consider most jobs here just as fulfilling than what she is used to. I have seen the 2.5 hr commutes one way. The long work days of 9-10 hours, small wages ect,ect. What I'm saying is why do you men think she wont be happy finding a job here? What I see... I would be happy with a job here compared to there, on any level, anytime.

And finally, after reading enough you can get a feel of some of the men who are looking for their life partner. Like there views towards life in general.

These are very strong women. Most of it is due to the atmosphere in which they live. Saying that, most liberal leaning men will have trouble keeping a healthy relationship with these mostly conservative women. Something to think about and not take lightly.

If you are the right man she will be happy with any life here.

SMS60  puts on his bullet proof vest in preparation for the incoming flack. Signing off.

[Misha]

I will use the house trailer ( trailer park ) as the first example. Everyone will jump up and down and say she does not want to be considered trailer trash and she wont be happy, ect, ect.

I have some friends. He spent a year in Russia teaching English. When they moved back, they lived in a trailer for a couple of years while she was doing a master's degree. She seemed happy enough. She got a great job once she graduated. The fact that he spent so much time with her in Russia certainly helped.

[Blues Fairy]

For most Russians, the "oppressive government" you deplore is no more than "caring, protective state" they're used to rely on.   

[Diplomacy]

SMS:

I do not think that you are wrong in a lot of aspects.  I also understand the premise you are making.  I think we can all make the same argument.  There is a lot of different types of men and women out there.

Some of the issue is expectations.  One WM provides a certain lifestyle and say I provide less than that.  There is a genuine issue of envy that can come into play.  It is very much who you chose for a woman.

I think we can all admit, that sometimes you think something is going to be one way.  Then when it happens, it does not live up to the hype.  I mean a movie, achieving a goal, and many other such events.

Imagine dreaming of something, there is just not a realistic way of achieving.  Add into the fact, that you have no real way of knowing that it is not a realistic dream. 

You build it all up in your mind, and then it is just an eventual crash waiting to happen.  I even believe that many women, come here with all the best intentions.  It is the reality that rains on the parade.

Having money, like it or not allows some extra comforts.  With enough comforts, then the dream is closer to the reality.

The one thing I know, is never try to understand why a woman thinks anything.  We are just not thinking the same, and then add different culture.  Oh, yeah we got a lot of relationship building ahead of us.

With money you can remove a lot of stress.  Knowing that you can afford to go see your family at any time is a good example.  In reality, it is the trips there after the culture shock is over.  That is when a lot of self realization is done.  They never saw the world you saw SMS.  It is often after several trips back to their native country, they have had the time and experiences to gain proper perspective.

Such things are not an either or scenario.  The man that is in best position is a good,strong, financially secure, caring, loving, understanding, tolerant, passionate, romantic, good husband, good father.

Some areas are weighted heavier than others, and that is debatable for each woman.  You also have to be a pillar of strength, but also their best friend. 

The more of the attributes that I have listed you posses, the better the chance is in a marriage.  The whole conversation is moot, if there is not a woman appreciative of who you are.  Or if the woman is not as committed as you are.

Like it or not, they want something they can not find there.  There are many catalysts, some genuine while others are selfish.  A lot of what I said can be learned, and you should always reflect on your own character.

Personally, every 6 months I look at an area that I can improve.  I then improve that area, while making sure I do not weaken other parts of my character focusing on one area.

[JR]

Steps in front of SMS60 to take the bullet...but nobody shoots. Damn, another failed opprotunity for heroism 

I find myself in agreement with most of what SMS says and implies in his post. My Ex-wife actually stepped down in social stature to be with me. Her father was in the Duma and high up at "Ruselprom?" He had a bodyguard/driver and a new mercedes. This was back in the early nineties. When we first married we were staying at someone's home. Then we got our own very small apartment and eventually we bought a house. I insisted on bringing her here before we got married to show her my life because I was concerned she might be disappointed. She paid her own way, or rather her father did. I seem to recall I paid them back but it was very difficult to get them to take it. I think it had to happen without her father's knowledge.

The one place where I find disagreement (although I have to say I think my experience is unique in this aspect) is that my Ex wouldn't do anything she felt was beneath her. And just about everything but playing with a symphony orchestra or being on the cover of Vogue was beneath her.

[Shadow]

Where SMS60 is missing the idea is the comparing to others.

If you have your own apartment in the FSU you have a posession that means something. The aparments may look bad to you, but the people living their are considered middle class at least. If you take her to the US and live in a trailer park, no matter how nice the trailer can be, it will be a downgrade of social class. If this is a temporary thing (like with JollyRats) a woman can live with the prospect of things imporving in the near future. But to downgrae permanently is something different.
Similar is with the job. If you are highly trained for a job, would you be happy flipping burgers even for equal money ?

Women want a man that is a good provider, and to show their friends at home they made the right choice.
When their friends see reports about trailer parks an hear she is living in one, they will tell her she shoul have chosen the 'New Russian' instead.

[I/O]

I would consider

Perception is reality and her perception is perhaps something very different? Read BF's post again................

I/O

[Mir]

For most Russians, the "oppressive government" you deplore is no more than "caring, protective state" they're used to rely on.

Maybe this was true of the USSR. At the time of its demise the oppression and caring, protective state both evaporated. Lately Vlad the Blackbelt has reintroduced as much of the oppression as possible without reinstating any care and protection

[docetae]

Maybe this was true of the USSR. At the time of its demise the oppression and caring, protective state both evaporated. Lately Vlad the Blackbelt has reintroduced as much of the oppression as possible without reinstating any care and protection

In Russia/Ukraine/Bielorussia, you have pressure from the government...in North America, we have lawyers... so it is the same.
When someone leave his/her own country, he is not leaving only material things, but a way of living, friends, etc. It can be difficult to understand for someone who has not lived this... Me and my wife have done it, we are two immigrants in Canada.

There are so many things that can be difficult during the first 2 or 3 years, that if you add material problem to them, this is a recipe for failure. The woman who will follow you will trust you. If you lose her trust, everything is finish.

[SMS60]

Where SMS60 is missing the idea is the comparing to others.

If you have your own apartment in the FSU you have a posession that means something. The aparments may look bad to you, but the people living their are considered middle class at least. If you take her to the US and live in a trailer park, no matter how nice the trailer can be, it will be a downgrade of social class. If this is a temporary thing (like with JollyRats) a woman can live with the prospect of things imporving in the near future. But to downgrae permanently is something different.
Similar is with the job. If you are highly trained for a job, would you be happy flipping burgers even for equal money ?

Women want a man that is a good provider, and to show their friends at home they made the right choice.
When their friends see reports about trailer parks an hear she is living in one, they will tell her she shoul have chosen the 'New Russian' instead.

Ok, I can just speak from what I experienced and know it is not a blanket that covers all people.

All the people I met in Russia would be considered middle class (I assume)?. I see their way of life to be below or on par with a nice trailer park. Im talking material wise and the ease of living a life. ( Actually it would be more difficult than a trailer park dwellers life) I think they are more happy ( inside) than the people with the same class in America.

Would not most of the women looking for a WM be in this class? If you are in the higher class your life is good and you dont have the desire to find a mate elsewhere. You can find it at home.

I conclude most of the women looking for a WM are in or below the middle class?  How is a "New Ruusians" life?

I guess what Im trying to say (with caution) is should these women expect twice the life from a man when they are living a much less life now?

[groovlstk]

I have read many times on here about items like,  can you afford this women? Can you give her everything she wants? She does not want to live in house trailer, She wants this, she wants that, are you up to all that, and it goes on and on.

This question has many facets, and most of the comments you see from married guys about $$ begins with this: Does your trailer park guy have enough cash to make multiple trips throughout the course of his search? Or, if he doesn't like flying can he afford to haul up stakes and move to Russia or Ukraine for a few months at a time? The search aspect of all this is extremely expensive, and doing it on the cheap means finding and marrying a girl who is essentially a stranger. There are a scattered few for whom this worked, but the vast majority fail. I consider it a duty and obligation for people here to warn such men that they can screw up their lives royally if they are not careful.

I have seen the small flats with paper thin walls, the small run down houses on the outskirts of the cities, the traffic, the lines, small salaries, no infastructure for the people, oppressive goverment, just an all around difficult life compared to what most westerners are used too.

I will use the house trailer ( trailer park ) as the first example. Everyone will jump up and down and say she does not want to be considered trailer trash and she wont be happy, ect, ect. But I have seen where she is living now. I would consider it 100 times worse than living in a trailer park. So why would she not be happy? The men on here would discourage a man from looking if he was to bring a women back to house trailer home. WHY?

This is certainly not my experience after more than a dozen trips. All of the FSU apartments I visited were in ugly, Soviet style buildings. The lobbies were filthy and elevators scary - yet INSIDE these flats were always quite beautiful, and much more quiet than what most city dwellers in the US can brag about because the walls and floors are constructed of concrete, much better than the wood frame apt. buildings I see going up all over my neighborhood (and in which my wife and I lived in for our first year together).

Their happiness is not with material items. They are happy "within" not with the material world. But people never talk about this when they discuss how to find a women from the FSU. Its all about lifestyle and materials things.

Where did you get this idea? Russian and Ukrainian women, in my experience, are at least as materialistic as other females throughout the world.

I don't agree with guys like Ambach who think $$ is the single most important thing in keeping a woman happy, but I agree with him that if a guy has to go into debt to find a partner, he's laying the groundwork for a lot of future arguments about $$. USCIS fees are a small fortune so the financial strain continues upon her arrival; add to this the unlikelyhood of her working for at least the first six months, and the $$ woes are compounded.

Next, I always read about jobs and her not being happy with just any job. WHY? I have seen the work from where she comes from. I would consider most jobs here just as fulfilling than what she is used to. I have seen the 2.5 hr commutes one way. The long work days of 9-10 hours, small wages ect,ect. What I'm saying is why do you men think she wont be happy finding a job here? What I see... I would be happy with a job here compared to there, on any level, anytime.

People with high educations get a lot more than their basic need for cash from their jobs. IMHO you're approaching this the wrong way. You are assuming most of these women have crappy lives and they should thank their lucky stars for a guy who can put a roof over their heads - even if their home is a trailer and she's the only PhD working as a Walmart clerk. These are very dangerous assumptions.

Saying that, most liberal leaning men will have trouble keeping a healthy relationship with these mostly conservative women. Something to think about and not take lightly.

Ridiculous.

If you are the right man she will be happy with any life here.

One of the problems with taking this all or nothing view is that she may be happy living in a trailer park and working at McDonald's for awhile, but every day she'll see couples who work hard to better themselves and their living situations. She'll meet Russian and American girlfriends here who have much higher living standards.

Every time I see one of these "only love matters" posts I can't help but see some irony. Most guys in this pursuit talk about finding an intelligent, tender, and loving woman to live with happily ever after. Isn't that a pure, noble, and sympathetic desire? Not if you scratch the surface a bit.

There are plenty such women in the US and Western Europe, why are these guys searching in Russia and Ukraine? I'll tell you why: Most are looking for a woman who is much more beautiful than women available to them in their own countries, or much younger, or they simply have zero prospects in their own country. Most will never admit this (which is why I appreciate guys like Thor who are at least honest with themselves about their motives). So these men have standards that reflect directly back on their own vanity.

Why do these same man then get all sanctimonious when they meet RW who have their own standards, in particular the desire for stability and a degree of comfort? Pot, Kettle, etc.

Anyway, good post, SMS60. This is the sort of stuff that needs to be discussed, and a topic that guys who have gone through the entire process can shed a lot of light on.

[ScottinCrimea]

I think Shadow is hitting on the right idea.  It's about a change in status and her perspective of her status in relation to those around her.  In the FSU, if everyone else is living in the same conditions, she has the same status as those around her.  If she comes to the US and moves into a trailer, she will quickly see that her status as compared to those around her is less.

The same goes for work.  If everyone else is doing the same type of crappy jobs, it's acceptable, but to come to the US and have to work at a job with less social status is troubling.  Sure the job here may be better than what she had there in many ways, but she will judge it based on the social status of the job, not the income, work environment, etc.

For example, she may make much more as a house cleaner here than she did as a doctor there and have better job security, but the money really isn't the issue.

[groovlstk]

I think Shadow is hitting on the right idea.  It's about a change in status and her perspective of her status in relation to those around her.  In the FSU, if everyone else is living in the same conditions, she has the same status as those around her.  If she comes to the US and moves into a trailer, she will quickly see that her status as compared to those around her is less.

The same goes for work.  If everyone else is doing the same type of crappy jobs, it's acceptable, but to come to the US and have to work at a job with less social status is troubling.  Sure the job here may be better than what she had there in many ways, but she will judge it based on the social status of the job, not the income, work environment, etc.

For example, she may make much more as a house cleaner here than she did as a doctor there and have better job security, but the money really isn't the issue.

Spot on, Scott.

[Misha]

There are plenty such women in the US and Western Europe, why are these guys searching in Russia and Ukraine? I'll tell you why: Most are looking for a woman who is much more beautiful than women available to them in their own countries, or much younger, or they simply have zero prospects in their own country. Most will never admit this (which is why I appreciate guys like Thor who are at least honest with themselves about their motives). So these men have standards that reflect directly back on their own vanity.

Why do these same man then get all sanctimonious when they meet RW who have their own standards, in particular the desire for stability and a degree of comfort? Pot, Kettle, etc.

Hey, I keep saying that I married that I met and married a beautiful woman from Russia because I had few if any dating options in my small city  :evil: If I could have married a young (25-30 years old) attractive woman in my city, I would never have met my wife and married a RW  

I agree about a woman having standards. However, these standards are not simply material. My wife knew what she was looking for in a man. She wanted him to be extremely intelligent, kind, tall, among others. She did not need a rich man, but didn't want to live in the streets either.

[Shadow]

All the people I met in Russia would be considered middle class (I assume)?. I see their way of life to be below or on par with a nice trailer park. Im talking material wise and the ease of living a life. ( Actually it would be more difficult than a trailer park dwellers life) I think they are more happy ( inside) than the people with the same class in America.

Would not most of the women looking for a WM be in this class? If you are in the higher class your life is good and you dont have the desire to find a mate elsewhere. You can find it at home.

I conclude most of the women looking for a WM are in or below the middle class?  How is a "New Ruusians" life?

I guess what Im trying to say (with caution) is should these women expect twice the life from a man when they are living a much less life now?

You should change the 'times to FSU' if you met people in Russia.
The people I met had a decent standard of life. Apartments have modern kitchens, computers, DVD players, they can afford at least once a year a holiday outside of Russia. Most of them have a (for Russia) decent car.
Yes, the aparments inside look about 25 years back in time to Dutch apartments, and the general maintenance of the buildings leaves a lot to be wished for (even if better as in Ukraine). However you should look at that not as 'poor' or 'backwards', just as that what is modern in Russia differs from other countries.

To give examples of 'New Russians': the Moscow Zoo had a charity project to get rubber toys for the bears and blankets for the monkeys. One guy was on TV telling that he ordered a blanket from a Japanese designer to give to the Orang-Utans as he liked them.
Of course people from a trailer park in the US could do the same....

You are looking elsewhere for a partner. Does that imply you can not afford one local ? If not, why would RW look for foreign partners only to upgrade their life ? Those who do, should be avoided.

[vwrw]

I read about a study conducted by American scientists that is relevant to the issue in hand.

In the study participants were asked whether they would prefer to earn $ 70,000 annually when the majority earns $80,000 or they would prefer to earn $ 60,000 annually when the majority earns $50,000. The cost of living in both scenarios  remains the same.

Well, despite the fact that in the second scenario the participants could afford less, the majority of them preferred the second scenario over the first one.  

[OlgaH]

I would consider it 100 times worse than living in a trailer park. So why would she not be happy? The men on here would discourage a man from looking if he was to bring a women back to house trailer home. WHY?

I think it depends on a trailer park and a trailer home  

People are buying motor homes and creating palaces, some of which sell for $1 million.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/10/fashion/10mobile.html?_r=1

Modern Transportable House
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Modern_Transportable_House.jpg

[JR]

There are plenty such women in the US and Western Europe, why are these guys searching in Russia and Ukraine? I'll tell you why: Most are looking for a woman who is much more beautiful than women available to them in their own countries, or much younger, or they simply have zero prospects in their own country. Most will never admit this (which is why I appreciate guys like Thor who are at least honest with themselves about their motives). So these men have standards that reflect directly back on their own vanity.

Absolutely true..,peel the bannana and that is whats inside.

[remiel6]

I always think its dangerous to throw words around like any and all RW are this way or all AW are that way. I can't speak for anyone else, but I started my search partially because I did meet a Ukrainian girl when I started college years, and years ago and did not take advantage of the situation.  :cluebat:Then I started looking and found someone when i wasn't expecting to. I think the situation can work if the people involved are willing to make it work and be honest. Honest with themselves about what they want in a partner (hot younger girl, whatever) and honest with the partner about their situation. In my case I put it right in my profile and told everyone right up front. I am not rich, I am in Law school, might make good money when I finish, I make okay money now. The girl who is looking for social status and money as her motives for marriage, should be avoided for a whole slew of reasons which have nothing to do with trailer parks. She won't be happy with you if your a millionare, because such people in life are never happy they are always looking for the next rung on the ladder. As for me I have lived in a foreign country thousands of miles from home. So I have some experience and well before she gets here I will be hitting these boards to ask questions so that I am prepared for what kinds of things she will experience when she first gets here. Be prepared, learn, tell the truth, and don't make yourself out to be more then you are, and be patient, those few things remove a lot of fights that might happen. Yes, money helps, there is no doubt about that, but throwing money at a situation will not usually make it any better.(sometimes more fun  ) Thats my two cents anyway

[JR]

It is funny how you can take all the ingredients and derive a mold from it. In the end what do you have? A mold that no one can fit into but everyone finds a bit of themselves in.

Generalties work with the general population. They don't work with individuals. But the general population is made up of individuals...go figure:)

[I/O]

In the study participants were asked whether they would prefer to earn $ 70,000 annually when the majority earns $80,000 or they would prefer to earn $ 60,000 annually when the majority earns $50,000. The cost of living in both scenarios  remains the same.

Well, despite the fact that in the second scenario the participants could afford less, the majority of them preferred the second scenario over the first one.

It's fine being poor providing you are not as poor as the next person. 
I/O