Ukraine vs. Russia, Pros and Cons?

[Aloe]

It would be good.  A reason I joined was to make it better.  I do not write English fast for chat rooms yet.

the forum has built-in spellcheck feature... look when you post there are 3 buttons: "Post", "Preview" and "Spell Check"

[Doll]

OK, then      First of all, you should have some proof reading program installed, that does spell check.   It weeds out the mistakes and also makes you to memories those mistakes (that if you waht to do it  ).   Second, may I ask you how you learn English?    Tapes, DVDs, friends...?

let it go!

[HiTech]

Ooooops: When did you stop beating your children?

And yes 38 - 42 would work,if we would marry instantly, but that would not be the case. So yes 38 would work but older would start become chancy. And once again, why would I wish to go into a relationship knowing ahead of time the need for modern medicine.

35 was my Ideal search age, but there are not many woman who fit all the criteria at that age.


HiTech

[HiTech]

board1:

A mans who want me only for beauty and health is not a mans for marrying to my brain.  But if that is all the mans sees then it is dishonest to say the mans see more than this.

I am sure there are some men who only see this,but I would have a hard time believing if this is a mans only criteria, that they would be in very long term relationships. Because beauty fades quickly.

I believe most men see a lot more than appearance, but also most men also see your appearance. For me there is no way to separate all things, The woman I was searching for MUST have all.

But for me it is not be the BEST at all, I.E. she does not need to be the most beautiful woman, but she had to be very attractive to me.
She does not need to be the worlds smartest person, but she did need to poses a curiosity about life, I.E. a continual desire to learn.
She did not need to be Mother Terasa, but she did need to have a giving side to her, and not a completely selfish person.
She did need a strong argumentative side, but also a self knowledge about this.

There are many more traits I can list, all are very much on a sliding scale.

But finding a woman who is attractive, that is very very simple. It only takes a few seconds to decide. And hence why most men would start with the physical, because it requires very little effort to rule in or out, but all the inner characteristics take a long time to see clearly. And this may be the reason many woman think men are only interested in the physical, because it may be the first thing almost all of us use a divider of possibles or no ways.

HiTech

[GoodOlBoy]

1. I want to meet a woman who wants to have children.
2. I want to meet a woman who does not already have any children.
3. I want to meet a woman who has not been married before.
4. I want to meet a woman who I am attracted to.
5. I want to meet a woman who's primary motivation is not wealth.

6. I want to meet a woman who DOESN'T look like a beached whale.

 


GOB

[Gator]

Again, whatever your reasons are, young and beautiful women are receptive to your advances primarily as a result of economics.

For sure, meeting a young beautiful RW is easy.  The doors to one of the best candy stores in the world are wide open.  

Making a decision to marry one is another matter.  The variables are immeasurably complex:  motivations, accommodations, feelings, etc. - deliberated in the haze of a different language, culture and age.  It's a wonder that anyone succeeds.  

I'm not saying that most women are out for your $$ - As an example, guys like GOB point out that Russian men are often scofflaws and alcoholics - whether you agree w/that or not, their plight is rooted in economics, not bad parenting.

IMO, many of the RW and RM did not receive adequate parenting.  Some did and it shows.  And many RW in this game are divorced from less than stellar RM.

A single RW with a child can easily seduce a man into thinking that a good father is her paramount goal.   Perhaps it is, yet once achieved, will she feel fulfilled or a different emptiness?

[groovlstk]

I started reading about Ukraine, saw MOB sites and thought they were a scam and decided to go to Donetsk because I found an article that spoke about Donetsk being against the Orange Revolution.  You all know I am interested in politics and liberation movements and I was fascinated by the fact that Donetsk is a very big city and there is so little information about it on the web.  Stoked my curiosity and I chose to go there.  While I was there the ladies were obviously gorgeous and unlike the unfriendly shrews in SF when i smiled they smiled back. 

Go on, Sculpto. This is truly amusing watching some of the guys in this thread squirm and sputter about how they were visiting Finland and tripped and fell across the border into Russia, inadvertantly bumping into a beautiful RW who opened their eyes and changed their perspective on gender relations. 

It's just another variation on the "why I'm different" theme. I don't understand why some men are so afraid to admit the obvious - as if there's some sort of stigma in making a decision as a man about what you desire in life and then having the seeds to jump over obstacles most wouldn't even dream of confronting in order to secure that future.

Believe me, whatever your motivation, RWD is at least a place where you can be honest without being judged by hyenas. Once your woman arrives, you can bet your bottom dollar that everyone - neighbors and strangers, even friends and family - will assume the worst. I've said this before, but in NYC I could go to parties led around by a midget with a spiked leash and people would fall all over me in a rush to show approval for my "alternate lifestyle." But marry a younger woman from an impoverished country and you're dirt, regardless.

As a curious side note - my wife made some Russian friends and through them we met many others and now have a group of regulars with whom we celebrate holidays, go bowling, skiing, etc. They are much, much less judgmental than the average American and once they understood how much my wife loves me I was accepted completely.

BTW, in your earlier post you claim to pass for a Russian man remarkably well, then you go on to mention about how the gorgeous women in Ukraine would smile back at you, etc. I have never seen a Russian man smiling at a stranger in public - the woman who smiled back at you pegged you for a foreigner, whether you wish to admit it or not.  :selfharm:

[GoodOlBoy]

As an example, guys like GOB point out that Russian men are often scofflaws and alcoholics - whether you agree w/that or not, their plight is rooted in economics, not bad parenting.

So how does one explain the (bad) behavior of FSU children and adults here in the GoodOl'USA?

I repeat the following story just as one example.

I have MANY more!

My wife and I were sitting on our condo balcony one morning, drinking some tea (chai) waiting for the sun to rise over the beach.

Out of the front door of our condo comes a group of young Russian/Ukrainian boys going to school (speaking Russian). I would guess that there were 9 or 10 of them. As soon as they cleared the front entrance they ALL lit up cigarettes. We are not talking about High School kids here, we are talking about young boys on the way to the bus stop around the corner.

Marina and I looked at each other and without saying a word to her she said to me: "so young with bad habits".

This situation can only be described as "bad parenting".

There is no way this has anything to do with "economics".

_____________________________________________________

I'll give one more example and then stop.

My wife and I like to go out in the evening (just after the sun goes down) and feed the neighborhood stray cats (about 40 of them).

We both carry shopping bags of cat food and table scraps.

There is barely a night that goes by that we don't "bump" into a drunk Russian/Ukrainian Man.

You can spot them immediately, staggering down the sidewalk.

It is a shame to live in such a nice area and yet behave in the same manner as if you were on some FSU street.

At least the RM/UM do not walk down the streets here in SIB with open bottles/cans like they did when I travelled to the FSU.

The SIB police will arrest you for an open bottle/can (even if it is in a brown paper bag).

Again, I don't think this example has anything to do with "economics".


GOB

[Faux Pas]

That is not what I try to say - I try to say that if they are only attracted to my femanine then they should not try to hide that fact by dishonest comment about being attracted to other things to validate that position.

A mans who want me only for beauty and health is not a mans for marrying to my brain.  But if that is all the mans sees then it is dishonest to say the mans see more than this.

It may be that is all I see in the mans also which is not enough to marry him.

I guess for you Bored it's going to be more of the matter of which man you will believe  

[Aloe]

My wife and I were sitting on our condo balcony one morning, drinking some tea (chai) waiting for the sun to rise over the beach.

Out of the front door of our condo comes a group of young Russian/Ukrainian boys going to school (speaking Russian). I would guess that there were 9 or 10 of them. As soon as they cleared the front entrance they ALL lit up cigarettes. We are not talking about High School kids here, we are talking about young boys on the way to the bus stop around the corner.

Marina and I looked at each other and without saying a word to her she said to me: "so young with bad habits".

This situation can only be described as "bad parenting".

There is no way this has anything to do with "economics".

it has A LOT to do with peer pressure, not just parenting.

[GoodOlBoy]

Once your woman arrives, you can bet your bottom dollar that everyone - neighbors and strangers, even friends and family - will assume the worst........... But marry a younger woman from an impoverished country and you're dirt, regardless.

Absolutely Agree!

I have lost almost all of my "old friends" (at least I thought they were my friends) because of this same attitude.

But the good news is, I have a whole new set of "friends" here in SIB. 

Maybe this time, they will really turn out to be "friends" of ours.

I have to admit a certain amount of shame on my part for the way Marina was treated by my "old friends" when she arrived here in the GoodOl'USA.

But at least I took the proper steps to quell the situation (we moved to SIB).



GOB

[Aloe]

What is SIB., is that siberia

[ECOCKS]

Absolutely Agree!

I have lost almost all of my "old friends" (at least I thought they were my friends) because of this same attitude.

But the good news is, I have a whole new set of "friends" here in SIB.  

Maybe this time, they will really turn out to be "friends" of ours.

I have to admit a certain amount of shame on my part for the way Marina was treated by my "old friends" when she arrived here in the GoodOl'USA.

But at least I took the proper steps to quell the situation (we moved to SIB).



GOB

I know a couple of expats who report similar situations when they returned home as well as one guy who was looking for an FSUW because several of his friends had RW or UW wives and wanted another gal for their group (at least that was what I heard from the way he described things in his home city). Among expats who returned home for awhile (visits or attempted repatriation) this story comes up often enough. MY belief is that other guys' GF's and wives play a part in this much of the time as well as resentment and jealousy on the part of your less than golden "friends" who you had trusted to be honest, tolerant and accepting of YOUR life choices. For a couple of guys, this behavior strengthened their decision to remain overseas, visiting only occasionally.

In fairness, remember that they don't have your mindset regarding dealing with the culture clash. I can't say as I have heard of anyone mentioning they were viewed as "dirt" because they married an FSUW but most people will be easily threatened by changes they cannot understand. For that reason, many will judge that you went for a trophy rather than a "soul mate" for life. Some will be irritated if your wife makes them take off their shoes at the door and slip on a pair of house shoes, others may protest (even to your face) about this weird food and deride her questions as ignorant and "stupid" but as Rick mentions, here may also be where you find who your REAL friends are and who was only your buddy because you fulfilled some need within their comfort zone. I don't need fairweather friends, just like with my spouse, I'm always looking for the long-haul solution.

[groovlstk]

MY belief is that other guys' GF's and wives play a part in this much of the time as well as resentment and jealousy on the part of your less than golden "friends" who you had trusted to be honest, tolerant and accepting of YOUR life choices.

In my experience, there is definitely a jealousy factor among GFs and wives of friends, but there are two factors: the first and most obvious is the beauty factor + the fact that my wife tends to dress in a manner that they can't, due to their excesses. Second is the unsettling thought that their husband/BF may like what he sees and get ideas about looking to Ukraine or Russia to trade up. Years ago, I read a piece in The Exile book about how every one of the Western expats the author met who had wives or GFs ended up dumping their women and hooking up with local RW. The writer went on to talk about how impossible it was for the American/Western women working there to find a BF - they would stake out expat bars in Moscow and SPB and try to snag newly arrived Western men before they had much exposure to RW.

Some of my male friends behaved strangely around us. I got the impression that they were resentful of me for not playing the hand of cards I was dealt with. They did things in the conventional way and were fine with it as long as they were around other guys who were resigned to the same fate.

I had no problems cutting these people out of our lives. My wife comes first, my family second, and friends are a bit lower down the list. I'd advise any guy still in the search phase to accept this and come to terms with it before making any big decisions.

What truly hurt was the affect on my wife - she arrived with no preconceived notions and even though I warned her this was a possibility it still came as a shock to her when she found a series of horribly insulting emails I'd received from an American ex-GF after I filed my K1. Since then I've done some housecleaning in the friends dept. and never looked back.

[GoodOlBoy]

What is SIB., is that siberia

Almost..........except for the snow!

Sorry Aloe for not being more precise in my posting.

SIB= Sunny Isles Beach, FL.

SIB is a small Russian/Ukrainian (and some others) community/resort area located in North Miami Beach. 

I had no problems cutting these people out of our lives. My wife comes first......

RW expect and deserve this behavior from their husbands, if you can't put them "first".....BIG problem!!

I'd advise any guy still in the search phase to accept this and come to terms with it before making any big decisions.

These are words that any Newbie seriously involved in this adventure should pay close attention to.


GOB

[Sculpto]

Go on, Sculpto. This is truly amusing watching some of the guys in this thread squirm and sputter about how they were visiting Finland and tripped and fell across the border into Russia, inadvertantly bumping into a beautiful RW who opened their eyes and changed their perspective on gender relations. 

It's just another variation on the "why I'm different" theme. I don't understand why some men are so afraid to admit the obvious - as if there's some sort of stigma in making a decision as a man about what you desire in life and then having the seeds to jump over obstacles most wouldn't even dream of confronting in order to secure that future.

Believe me, whatever your motivation, RWD is at least a place where you can be honest without being judged by hyenas. Once your woman arrives, you can bet your bottom dollar that everyone - neighbors and strangers, even friends and family - will assume the worst. I've said this before, but in NYC I could go to parties led around by a midget with a spiked leash and people would fall all over me in a rush to show approval for my "alternate lifestyle." But marry a younger woman from an impoverished country and you're dirt, regardless.

As a curious side note - my wife made some Russian friends and through them we met many others and now have a group of regulars with whom we celebrate holidays, go bowling, skiing, etc. They are much, much less judgmental than the average American and once they understood how much my wife loves me I was accepted completely.

BTW, in your earlier post you claim to pass for a Russian man remarkably well, then you go on to mention about how the gorgeous women in Ukraine would smile back at you, etc. I have never seen a Russian man smiling at a stranger in public - the woman who smiled back at you pegged you for a foreigner, whether you wish to admit it or not.  :selfharm:

Groove.. why is it so difficult for you to accept what got me to ukraine in the first place?  I am not trying to prove anything.. its just what happened.  When I got off the plane I was vaguely aware of there being something special about FSUWs but to be real honest I still had the old propoganda from the cold war in my head.. that Russian women were built like bears and mean.  The few Russians I knew in the US at the time did nothing to dispell that myth.  What I saw on my first day in Donetsk SHOCKED me.  During my first hour on the street I thought all the women were hookers and by the second hour I knew ALL my preconceptions were wrong. 

As far as people being friendly on the street.. just because YOU never saw something doesn't make it true or not.  What I experienced in Donetsk, repeatedly for over a month, was surprise and curiosity at being foreign, and, a great deal of warmth and hospitality from both men and women.  By the end of one month I had a freakin entourage everywhere I went.  Had I stayed on in Donetsk and had just a little bit of money to throw around I am sure I could have insinuated myself into a very nice lifestyle. 

[groovlstk]

What I experienced in Donetsk, repeatedly for over a month, was surprise and curiosity at being foreign, and, a great deal of warmth and hospitality from both men and women.  By the end of one month I had a freakin entourage everywhere I went.  Had I stayed on in Donetsk and had just a little bit of money to throw around I am sure I could have insinuated myself into a very nice lifestyle. 

Thank you for proving the very point I was making way upthread.

[Sculpto]

Thank you for proving the very point I was making way upthread.

thats selective reading/quoting Groove.. the smiles and approach came before they were aware.. duh.  Later on in the trip when I had gained some confidence and shed the negativity that weighs down most straight men in the Bay Area I didn't wait for them to guess.  I used being foreign to my advantage and it was a blast.  I met some amazingly beautiful women that way.  But, for the first week or so.. sitting on that bench not far from Lenin.. no one knew I wasn't local until I opened my mouth. 

[Misha]

Go on, Sculpto. This is truly amusing watching some of the guys in this thread squirm and sputter about how they were visiting Finland and tripped and fell across the border into Russia, inadvertantly bumping into a beautiful RW who opened their eyes and changed their perspective on gender relations. 

Or on other forums how they are soooooo different because they went to live there and date women  :evil:

BTW, in your earlier post you claim to pass for a Russian man remarkably well, then you go on to mention about how the gorgeous women in Ukraine would smile back at you, etc. I have never seen a Russian man smiling at a stranger in public - the woman who smiled back at you pegged you for a foreigner, whether you wish to admit it or not.  :selfharm:

Astute as always Groov. I can usually spot a foreigner a block away in Russia simply by the way they walk. Throw in the smile and you have a dead giveaway even before they mangle a "pree-vyet" 

[Ooooops]

Ooooops: When did you stop beating your children?

In Russia we say "did you stop drinking cognac in the morning yet?"   

35 was my Ideal search age, but there are not many woman who fit all the criteria at that age.

So now you have to settle for a much younger chick...   I see....   

[HiTech]

Ooops:
I do not appreciate you speaking of my wife as a chick.
I also do not appreciate you referring to her as something I settled for.


HiTech

[Ooooops]

HiTech, sorry, I wasn't referring to your wife.   I didn't even know if you were married (should have looked at your avatar, I guess, idiot me...   )   Sorry again, I also get very defensive when people start talk about my better half.   

[Candy]

My FSU wife is not nearly as physically attractive as the my former wife (AW) from whom I made the difficult decision to part.  Nor is she as attractive as another AW that sought a relationship with me after my divorce.   

[JR]

I hope Candy isn't Ronnies wife

[Ronnie]

I hope Candy isn't Ronnies wife

Egads!  I think it's my ex! :whirling: