Ukraine vs. Russia, Pros and Cons?

[Faux Pas]

See now that is a kind and affectionate term that has no negative connotation.

Faux wants to deride what he calls political correctness.. yet fails to understand that a lot of women were and are offended by the connotation of the term "chick" and therefore rallied against its use.  I would suggest his opposition to the use of appropriate language in reference to women would be an indicator of a larger gender perception issue on his part.

WOW Sculpt! You never cease to amaze me. A battle tested and hardened veteran, nude firelight dancer, kitchen designer with coffee maker expertise and now look, part time online psychologist! Where do you get all these talents? 

[Sculpto]

WOW Sculpt! You never cease to amaze me. A battle tested and hardened veteran, nude firelight dancer, kitchen designer with coffee maker expertise and now look, part time online psychologist! Where do you get all these talents? 

Faux.. while you were out on the golf course or doing whatever it is that you do with yourself when no one is looking.. I have spent my time learning, reading and experiencing.  Like a lot of artists.. I sometimes get obsessed with a particular topic and that obsession doesn't end until I am completely satisfied there is nothing more I can learn on the particular subject without actually abandoning my ultimate goals.

As an example.. on Friday I was delivering a kitchen to a very interesting client.  he happens to be an engineer of materials and as something of an expert in materials myself we started discussing silicon carbide alloys and elastomeric polymers which I have used for certain processes for art.. he was SHOCKED, said wait a minute.. ran into his workshop and came out with a bunch of awesome materials that his company has developed.  Now how often do you think that happens?  A total civilian comes along and can really talk shop with a professional in a totally obscure field?    The conversation then progressed into magnetism which is my current obsession and is going on for over a year. 

Here is what got me started on the magentism obsession.. I am working on something that dwarfs this beautiful and elegant work in scope and scale.. it will be no less than one more year before completion.. most likely two, and getting the exotic materials and very high power electromagnets required to make it work is not going to be inexpensive and require exceptionally careful handling as the materials are powerful and potentially toxic.. but.... since I/O was wondering what other things I wanted to get done.. now you all know.. I will KILL anyone who steals my idea.. hahaha

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So, check yourself Faux.. you really don't know me and instead of being a jerk with me most of the time and showing your narrow and closed mind if you would lighten up you might discover some cool stuff.  there is method to my madness.

[JR]

depends on who you are talking to.. but in my neck of the woods.. using the word chick will offend some and cause a loss of respect from others..

chick = stupid girl (even if she is hot)

That's because the place where Sculpto lives is full FemmeNazis

[Sculpto]

That's because the place where Sculpto lives is full FemmeNazis

lol thats for sure..

[tfcrew]

 I was thinking of going to Odessa or St. Petersburg next summer? Thanks.

Try both
 

there is method to my madness.

Sometimes there is just madness to my method......................

[Boethius]

Boethius..

thanks for the interest.. I suspect the Germans burned the town.. I doubt many Jewish villages survived intact.  Its been four years since I did that research, but I do remember that I was not able to locate the place on any map newer than the revolution.  So, who knows..

As far as Donetsk.. it is exactly its working class, non tourist identity with a large dose of opposition to the Orange that attracted me to it.  I was very surprised how pleasant it was and how laid back.  The center is certainly not the impoverished hell hole I was expecting, though, Makeevka and other outlying areas were a bit of a shock, even for someone like myself who has travelled in some pretty poor parts of Latin America.

There were no "Jewish" villages in Ukraine, though certainly, there were predominantly Jewish villages and towns.  Berdychiv is one, which was predominantly Jewish even after WWII.  Small villages will not appear on most maps of Ukraine.

Donetsk was a fairly prosperous region.  Glad you enjoyed it.  

Some regions in Western Ukraine, and in the Poltava region are fairly impoverished.

[Sculpto]

There were no "Jewish" villages in Ukraine, though certainly, there were predominantly Jewish villages and towns.  Berdychiv is one, which was predominantly Jewish even after WWII.  Small villages will not appear on most maps of Ukraine.

Donetsk was a fairly prosperous region.  Glad you enjoyed it.  

Some regions in Western Ukraine, and in the Poltava region are fairly impoverished.

I have not done a full research on Shtetl life in Ukraine in the 1890s, but, what I have researched indicated that some places were if not 100% Jewish very nearly so.  Regardless.. the actual village wasn't that important to me once I had a basic understanding of where my family came from.  On my Dads side there will never be any way to know.. his grandparents went to England before they came to the USA.. their immigration records show England as their immigration point and Russian was listed as their ethnicity.  I continue to feel a strong attraction to Odessa because I catch myself imagining that my family walked those streets at some point in time.  True or not?  No idea.. but.. I like the image.    I have the same feeing about Lviv, even though I haven't been there yet and it is much more certain they did go to Lviv at some point or another, so, less likely to be fictionalized in my mind. 

 

[Boethius]

Deleted

[Sculpto]

If their ethnicity is Russian, they would have come from the Russian Empire, but that could be anywhere from Volyn' to Moldova.

If you have their surnames, you can track a lot of that information through Jewish genealogical sites.  Again, you can find a lot of this information by asking at the site I posted earler, if you're interested.

Unfortunately the name was changed at Ellis Island, so, there really isn't a way to track them down.  The assumption is they were from some part of what used to be called Galicia based simply on the fact they spoke Russian.  They could have just as easily spoken Polish, or German, but they didn't, just Russian and Yiddish.  My aunt mythologized they actually came from Ireland and was VERY disappointed when I showed her the Ellis Island documents.  My Moms side has been much easier though.. we have all the surnames and have tracked down all the places they came from.  The only gaps are the other family members that never came over.  There is a one in a billion chance there are some relatives still in Ukraine or Russia, but, with the war and other displacements the chances are exceptionally small that anyone would have survived.  At some point in the future I might try to do a search.

[Boethius]

Galicians didn't speak Russian.  They spoke Ukrainian if they were ethnic Ukrainians, and Polish, predominantly, otherwise.  Galician Jews generally spoke Yiddish and Polish.  Jews who lived in villages often spoke Ukrainian, but in towns, not as often.  Anyway, I wish you luck if you choose to look for those roots.

 

[Mir]

Galician Jews generally spoke Yiddish and Polish

And Hebrew.
Galician Jews produced 4 Noble prize winners: Isidor Isaac Rabi (physics), Roald Hoffman (chemistry), Georges Charpak (physics) and Shmuel Agnon (literature).
Agnon wrote in Yiddish and Hebrew but is mostly acclaimed for his Hebrew fiction. He made his acceptance speech in Hebrew.

[Sculpto]

interesting facts.. nevertheless in my family they spoke russian.. who knows if they spoke ukrainian.. no one alive to inform.. I do know they did not speak polish

[Mir]

If your family were Jews from Odessa region they would have spoken Russian mixed with Yiddish and Ukrainian.

[Sculpto]

could well be.. I really dont know.. my Mom speaks a little bit of Yiddish.. but I do remember my great grandmother and she definitely spoke Russian and Yiddish

[Boethius]

And Hebrew.
Galician Jews produced 4 Noble prize winners: Isidor Isaac Rabi (physics), Roald Hoffman (chemistry), Georges Charpak (physics) and Shmuel Agnon (literature).
Agnon wrote in Yiddish and Hebrew but is mostly acclaimed for his Hebrew fiction. He made his acceptance speech in Hebrew.

Hebrew was studied, but it wasn't spoken as the "daily" language.  Yiddish was.  One of the reasons Jews were so easily located in rural Ukraine during Operation Barbarossa was because they were not integrated with the surrounding population.  They dressed differently and didn't speak the vernacular.  

[Sculpto]

Hebrew was studied, but it wasn't spoken as the "daily" language.  Yiddish was.  One of the reasons Jews were so easily located in rural Ukraine during Operation Barbarossa was because they were not integrated with the surrounding population.  They dressed differently and didn't speak the vernacular.  

I am very interested in the pilgrimage to Uman made by the Hassidics.  Not that I have ANYTHING in common with them.. but, its still interesting.  I did notice Hassids in Donetsk and Odessa on the street.. some of them are apparently so conservative they refuse to emigrate to Israel because the messiah has not come.  I guess they might be waiting a long time.    The renewal of Jewish life throughout the FSU is pretty interesting with JCCs sprouting up in pretty much every city.. usually sponsored by some philanthropist in the US.  Just yesterday I was reading a bit about the Russian government recognizing the unique contribution to Russian history and culture of the Jews.  That was right in front of the article documenting the anti semitic attacks and lack of prosecution.  its a bit bizarre. 

[Boethius]

Jewish culture is very intertwined with Ukraine, Belarus (and Poland), more so than Russia, because of the Pale of Settlement.  It was strong in Kyiv until the 1970's, when Jews started to emigrate.  In fact, a huge proportion of Ukraine's communist party was Jewish until the 1960's.

[OlgaH]

Jewish Autonomous Oblast in RF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

Jewish Autonomous Region official government website
http://eao.ru/eng/

[Sculpto]

Jewish culture is very intertwined with Ukraine, Belarus (and Poland), more so than Russia, because of the Pale of Settlement.  It was strong in Kyiv until the 1970's, when Jews started to emigrate.  In fact, a huge proportion of Ukraine's communist party was Jewish until the 1960's.

A very high percentage of the Ukrainians I have come into contact with here are Jews and lived in Kiev, probably 30% and an equally large number from Odessa.  I am still studying the Pale of Settlement via the web.. if you know of any books on the subject please recommend.  

[Sculpto]

Jewish Autonomous Oblast in RF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

Jewish Autonomous Region official government website
http://eao.ru/eng/

I have read those sites Olga.  Really interesting stuff!  99% of Jews in the USA had no idea about it when I brought it up.  If I ever get to do a trans-siberia "expedition" I will certainly go there. 

[Ronnie]

As far as Donetsk.. it is exactly its working class, non tourist identity with a large dose of opposition to the Orange that attracted me to it.  .

The opposition to the Orange?  Do you mean they were in favor of the voter fraud in favor of Kuchma?  Are Ukrainians not entitled to choose who will govern, or is that still better left to Moscow?  Apparently the mostly Russian residents of Donetsk believe so.

I'm puzzled why some folks in this day and age, use language more fitting in 1850's France.  "Working Class," so wouldn't that include anyone who works?  Is a Harvard MBA working at an investment banker for Goldman Sachs a member of the "working class?"  Even if she was raised by a single parent on food stamps?  Who decides a person's class?  In modern society, I don't believe these old cliche's are meaningful at all.  But they are still being used by the far left, anti-capitalists.  As Ronnie Reagan used to say, "It's not that our liberal friends are ignorant, it's just that what they know isn't so."

[Boethius]

A very high percentage of the Ukrainians I have come into contact with here are Jews and lived in Kiev, probably 30% and an equally large number from Odessa.  I am still studying the Pale of Settlement via the web.. if you know of any books on the subject please recommend.  

Not a book, but a good article -

Pipes, Richard. ‘Catherine II and the Jews: The Origins of the Pale of Settlement,’ Soviet Jewish Affairs, 5, no. 2 (1975)

[Boethius]

The opposition to the Orange?  Do you mean they were in favor of the voter fraud in favor of Kuchma?  Are Ukrainians not entitled to choose who will govern, or is that still better left to Moscow?  Apparently the mostly Russian residents of Donetsk believe so.

I'm puzzled why some folks in this day and age, use language more fitting in 1850's France.  "Working Class," so wouldn't that include anyone who works?  Is a Harvard MBA working at an investment banker for Goldman Sachs a member of the "working class?"  Even if she was raised by a single parent on food stamps?  Who decides a person's class?  In modern society, I don't believe these old cliche's are meaningful at all.  But they are still being used by the far left, anti-capitalists.  As Ronnie Reagan used to say, "It's not that our liberal friends are ignorant, it's just that what they know isn't so."

First, Donetsk is predominantly Russian speaking.  However, ethnically, it is pretty much evenly split between Russians and Ukrainians.  Second, perhaps rather than assuming about half of Ukraine wanted their future left to Moscow, one could also argue that half did not want their future decided by the West, and particulary, the U.S. or, the anti Orangista's favourite whipping boy, George Soros.  Third, yes, Donetsk is a working class town,  It is a a monument to the Soviet glorification of the "working class".  This Soviet terminology still applies.  Yeah, there are oligarchs there, but it is very unlike, say, Kyiv, where a good portion of the population comes from villages.

[Sculpto]

The opposition to the Orange?  Do you mean they were in favor of the voter fraud in favor of Kuchma?  Are Ukrainians not entitled to choose who will govern, or is that still better left to Moscow?  Apparently the mostly Russian residents of Donetsk believe so.

Well.. you make a good point Ronnie.. but I just thought it was odd that one region would be opposed to what from the outside looking in seemed like a good thing.. meaning the OR.  The fact that at the time there was almost no information about Donetsk on the web also added to the mystery.  I was able to find a grand total of five photos of the city.  Really amazing given its size.  There were also two or three small sites in English that had a tiny bit of the city's history.  I had the sense that the place might be a throwback to another time and that wasn't entirely untrue.  One thing that was also interesting was literally the day before i was supposed to get on the plane I found a russian language site with a set of panoramic photos.  A guy had climbed a radio tower.. frankly it scared the hell out of me.. the images showed factories belching out yellow sulphuric smoke and row after row of soviet style apartment buildings.  I thought, "This is a GIANT mistake" but i had also researched Crimea, Lviv, Kiev and Odessa so I decided if Donetsk was horrible i would just get on the first bus and go someplace else.  I stayed the whole month.    BTW.. there was at the time an anti Orange encampment in the park in the center.  The organizers were from a communist party and had a very anti american point of view.  Lots of people would stop by their tables and read their stuff and sign their petitions. 

One thing I LOVED about Donetsk.. every single night I was there people in different parts of the city were shooting off massive amounts of fireworks.  My friends told me it was rival "mafias" and they were trying to outdo each other.

Boethius.. wouldn't Akmetov count as pretty much the biggest oligarch in Ukraine?

[Boethius]

One of the biggest.  Some hide the extent of their wealth.

PS - I find his false "Ukrainianism" as goofy as Tymoshenko's populist braid.