Where do you draw the line and say enough?

[Chicagoguy]

So much of the advice here is "get on a plane and meet her". Maybe. But I would think most guys have some time and money limits. I believe the best thing to do for some of these newcomers is help them get in direct contact with the woman. Preferably more than one before you go there.

[Sculpto]

So much of the advice here is "get on a plane and meet her". Maybe. But I would think most guys have some time and money limits. I believe the best thing to do for some of these newcomers is help them get in direct contact with the woman. Preferably more than one before you go there.

Chicago.. you are not far off the ball with your comment.  The problem is if the man is corresponding with an agency girl there is just no way to know if it is really her writing in the first place.  Plus, the sites are putting up greater and greater obstacles to direct contact, all in the name of IMBRA. 

It would seem that once most guys who come here with issues like the OP did, and they gt straightened out, they become more creative in how they are making contact.  Not so many years ago when it was hard for a lady to get internet access maybe the agency concept made a little more sense, but, at this point, justifying anything based on lack of internet access is ridiculous.  One look at pretty much any Russian language dating site should dispel those myths. 

[kievstar]

July 4th is coming up in USA. If your from other countries you have tons of holidays / vacations.  Most people have a vacation day on July 3rd.  You can fly and meet for two days and be back.  Time constraints are not a good excuse.  Trips do not have to be 7 days.  Best girls go fast in agencies unless there coming off a breakup or have children.

If someone can not afford a $3,000 usd trip, than they should really consider international dating.  Better to get an extra job and make money than start looking. 

[jdk1963]

July 4th is coming up in USA. If your from other countries you have tons of holidays / vacations.  Most people have a vacation day on July 3rd.  You can fly and meet for two days and be back.  Time constraints are not a good excuse.  Trips do not have to be 7 days.  Best girls go fast in agencies unless there coming off a breakup or have children.

If someone can not afford a $3,000 usd trip, than they should really consider international dating.  Better to get an extra job and make money than start looking. 

What's your point?  Other than insulting people who do not have a lifestyle that meets your approval?

[jdk1963]

Accept your limitations and they are yours. Unknown

Richard Bach wrote someting similar

Richard Bach wrote, Harry Callahan carried the the most powerful handgun in the world.  I'm going with Harry on this one!   

[GregfromGa]

What's your point?  Other than insulting people to do not have a lifestyle that meets your approval?

I personally dont think the poster is trying to insult anyone. I never hung out on Hamptons or Palm Beach message boards because I knew I could never hang with people. I've said it before and I'll say it again, If you're not prepared to get on a plane within 3 or 4 months then why bother. This is a very time consuming and expensive process that some of you guys are undertaking. It might not be your gig. About 8 years ago it was my gig. I got lucky but things have changed. It would be hard for me now to make the trips I made leading up to my marriage.

The point I'm making is dont write to a girl if you cant go see her.

[JR]

Richard Bach wrote, Harry Callahan carried the the most powerful handgun in the world.  I'm going with Harry on this one!   

Is the Casull 454 still the most powerful handgun in the world?

[jdk1963]

I personally dont think the poster is trying to insult anyone. I never hung out on Hamptons or Palm Beach message boards because I knew I could never hang with people. I've said it before and I'll say it again, If you're not prepared to get on a plane within 3 or 4 months then why bother. This is a very time consuming and expensive process that some of you guys are undertaking. It might not be your gig. About 8 years ago it was my gig. I got lucky but things have changed. It would be hard for me now to make the trips I made leading up to my marriage.

The point I'm making is dont write to a girl if you cant go see her.

Perhaps, but unless you know an individual persons situation it is really inappropriate to make the comment he did.  Had life been all lollipops and roses I would have already made my first trip.  Things happen and I've hit a few of life's unexpected pleasures that took precedence over jumping on a plane and flying half way around the world.  That is probably the reality for most men and disparaging comments are really uncalled for.   

[jdk1963]

Is the Casull 454 still the most powerful handgun in the world?

Nope,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.454_Casull Outdone by S&W.  500 Smith & Wesson magnum just doesn't have the same bang when you say it. 

[groovlstk]

Perhaps, but unless you know an individual persons situation it is really inappropriate to make the comment he did.  Had life been all lollipops and roses I would have already made my first trip.  Things happen and I've hit a few of life's unexpected pleasures that took precedence over jumping on a plane and flying half way around the world.  That is probably the reality for most men and disparaging comments are really uncalled for.   

jdk, if you take the rough statistics that agencies have reported (and in this instance, they have no incentive to lie, at least none that I can think of), maybe 1% of the men who write women in Russia/Ukraine actually visit. The women who are open to dating foreigners and are listed on agency and/or dating websites for more than a few months quickly get jaded and cynical because of these keyboard romeos. Such men salt the ground for other men who follow. Learn from kievstar's post. FWIW, a lot of the guys here are justifiably wary of new posters who show up with all sorts of questions, only to learn that the poster has no solid plans to actually make a visit (regardless of the excuse) - think about it: who wants to take the time and effort to help someone when most of the men who are at your stage in the process are nothing more than dreamers?

I don't know what your economic situation is right now, but kievstar alluded to the cost factor, and there's simply no way around it. You won't marry the first girl you write or visit (unless you are extraordinarily lucky or extraordinarily foolish) - this thing can get very expensive. I spent about $25k during the 3 years of searching prior to meeting my wife, and that figure only goes up once your fiancee arrives because of 1) USCIS/household fees and 2) the fact that she will not be working for at least 6 mos., and if she speaks no or little English (as you alluded to in an earlier post), you can extend that timeline to years.

You're getting good advice here, grab what's relevant to your situation and don't take anything personally.

[jdk1963]

jdk, if you take the rough statistics that agencies have reported (and in this instance, they have no incentive to lie, at least none that I can think of), maybe 1% of the men who write women in Russia/Ukraine actually visit. The women who are open to dating foreigners and are listed on agency and/or dating websites for more than a few months quickly get jaded and cynical because of these keyboard romeos. Such men salt the ground for other men who follow. Learn from kievstar's post. FWIW, a lot of the guys here are justifiably wary of new posters who show up with all sorts of questions, only to learn that the poster has no solid plans to actually make a visit (regardless of the excuse) - think about it: who wants to take the time and effort to help someone when most of the men who are at your stage in the process are nothing more than dreamers?

I don't know what your economic situation is right now, but kievstar alluded to the cost factor, and there's simply no way around it. You won't marry the first girl you write or visit (unless you are extraordinarily lucky or extraordinarily foolish) - this thing can get very expensive. I spent about $25k during the 3 years of searching prior to meeting my wife, and that figure only goes up once your fiancee arrives because of 1) USCIS/household fees and 2) the fact that she will not be working for at least 6 mos., and if she speaks no or little English (as you alluded to in an earlier post), you can extend that timeline to years.

You're getting good advice here, grab what's relevant to your situation and don't take anything personally.

Just so we are clear, I am not exactly an amateur in regards to this process and I certainly do not expect or intend to make a single trip.  Furthermore there isn't anyone on this board who can say they fully know my intentions so lumping me in with the "keyboard romeos" is no different than making gross generalizations.  Had you read my original post you would have seen that I was soliciting opinions on dealing with an agency not a critique on my intentions to travel or not.  Nor was I soliciting economic advice regarding my assumed financial status.  Furthermore assuming that because I may be unfamiliar with FSU agencies I am a neophyte when it comes to foreign dating is absurd, gross generalizations again.  He's new to the board therefore he knows nothing is rather irritating.

Good advice is greatly appreciated, baseless assumptions and insults are not.     

[groovlstk]

Just so we are clear, I am not exactly an amateur in regards to this process and I certainly do not expect or intend to make a single trip.  Furthermore there isn't anyone on this board who can say they fully know my intentions so lumping me in with the "keyboard romeos" is no different than making gross generalizations.

Had you read my original post you would have seen that I was soliciting opinions on dealing with an agency not a critique on my intentions to travel or not.  Nor was I soliciting economic advice regarding my assumed financial status.  Furthermore assuming that because I may be unfamiliar with FSU agencies I am a neophyte when it comes to foreign dating is absurd, gross generalizations again.  He's new to the board therefore he knows nothing is rather irritating.

JDK, this forum is a community. You are not the first guy who can't tell if the woman he is writing to is real or not or whether his agency is fleecing him, so the answers you receive are not just for you - they are for every new guy who arrives here during the time your thread is front and center. Much of the response you've received (including mine) is boilerplate stuff. Discard what's not relevant to your situation and move on, there's no need to get defensive about your intentions and experience.   

Good advice is greatly appreciated, baseless assumptions and insults are not.

These "baseless assumptions" are not about you directly - they are for every guy who is at your stage in the process. Further, you won't always get good advice - some guys here (none who are actually married to a RW, BTW) will blow sunshine up your butt and tell you how you must follow your heart and to hell with any other consideration - if a girl tells you she loves you, she must be 100% sincere because RW are too proud to lie about something so important, right? Some will give urge you to take the path they took and everything else is wrong. Some will tell you things you don't want to here but are highly relevant to your situation. It's just the nature of the beast. 

[tim 360]

JDK,  Many agencies are simply a dog and pony show and some are an outright scam in which the guy keeps writing and never shows up.  That is the agencies bread and butter and they make it user friendly and as long as you write-and-pay you will always get a return letter.  From just whom---I don't know.  Anyway, there are lottsa guys writing letters and plenty of money to be made since only 1 or 2% go to meet whoever it is they are writing to.  Letters mean nearly zero.  Some girls get thousands of letters.  Good luck.

ps: You probably should do some reading here.  Use the search function.  Otherwise, you have received some good advice, but mayhaps not what you wanted to hear.

[Gator]

JDK,

A question by itself has 100 different answers dependent upon all the variables.  Anytime someone asks a question at RWD, the experienced posters read between the lines in an attempt to define some context for answering the qustion.  The answer given is their best guess at what is appropriate for the man asking the question plus all the lurkers in the same bost.

It is not insulting to advise a man who is unable to get on a plane to stop writing a RW, especially in a "pay per letter" manner. Why?  Because most RW will eventully lose interest.  If this is some RW you met outside expensive agenies, then perhaps a long correspondence is good.  We have one married RWD member who corresponded for a loooooooong time before meeting her future husband.

Not taking a trip also suggests that you can not afford it now.  Many men can not do this year what they could do last year or hope to do next year.  Many men are in economic recovery.  Meanwhile, the costs of doing this romantic venture correctly have not deflated. 

The archives at RWD are replete with threads on "What it Costs."  To do this correctly a man should make several trips to get to know the woman.  Also, completing the visa process and moving a RW here are not inexpensive.  And the largest expense is providing for her once she arrives while she adjusts.

Good luck!  No one at RWD wants to insult you.

[GregfromGa]

Just so we are clear, I am not exactly an amateur in regards to this process and I certainly do not expect or intend to make a single trip.  Furthermore there isn't anyone on this board who can say they fully know my intentions so lumping me in with the "keyboard romeos" is no different than making gross generalizations.  Had you read my original post you would have seen that I was soliciting opinions on dealing with an agency not a critique on my intentions to travel or not.  Nor was I soliciting economic advice regarding my assumed financial status.  Furthermore assuming that because I may be unfamiliar with FSU agencies I am a neophyte when it comes to foreign dating is absurd, gross generalizations again.  He's new to the board therefore he knows nothing is rather irritating.

Good advice is greatly appreciated, baseless assumptions and insults are not.     

You're probably a nice guy and I'll be as discreet as I can here. I dont think anyone is hurling insults and gross generalizations at you. The vast majority of people on this board know if you cannot afford to make the trips then you shouldnt be writing letters to FSU girls. If people are looking for pen pals then this certainly isnt the avenue to take. Once again I dont see the insults.

[jdk1963]

JDK,

A question by itself has 100 different answers dependent upon all the variables.  Anytime someone asks a question at RWD, the experienced posters read between the lines in an attempt to define some context for answering the qustion.  The answer given is their best guess at what is appropriate for the man asking the question plus all the lurkers in the same bost.

It is not insulting to advise a man who is unable to get on a plane to stop writing a RW, especially in a "pay per letter" manner. Why?  Because most RW will eventully lose interest.  If this is some RW you met outside expensive agenies, then perhaps a long correspondence is good.  We have one married RWD member who corresponded for a loooooooong time before meeting her future husband.

Not taking a trip also suggests that you can not afford it now.  Many men can not do this year what they could do last year or hope to do next year.  Many men are in economic recovery.  Meanwhile, the costs of doing this romantic venture correctly have not deflated. 

The archives at RWD are replete with threads on "What it Costs."  To do this correctly a man should make several trips to get to know the woman.  Also, completing the visa process and moving a RW here are not inexpensive.  And the largest expense is providing for her once she arrives while she adjusts.

Good luck!  No one at RWD wants to insult you.

Ok but can we leave it at "for whatever reason I/He could not travel when I/He wanted" and stop with the assumptions?  Did this really need to devolve into "he can't afford to travel so he should get a second job"?

[jj]

jdk-  alot of us, including myself , have been the route of  agencys that do not allow contact, and run up the credit cards etc.  . I found that some of these same ladies that were on the bad agencys could be found on free sites, or a site that allow a phone contact, e-mail etc.  It might be worth your time to check it out, if you are serious about contacting this lady without an agency.   The lady may be for real or if contacted on another site, may never even heard of you  if the bad site is doing all the letter writing.   
    My now wife was listed on several sites, unbeknown to her, as she only signed up with one which allowed phone # with her approval.   Once you find more personal ways to communicate and feel there is potential for a serious relationship, then go see her as soon as you can swing several days off.  also, skype-type calling is very economical.  communicating with a fsu lady with limited english is all expressed on another thread, and you can check it out.  Certainly not impossible but can be challenging as can be the whole k-1 process.   -jj

[jdk1963]

jdk-  alot of us, including myself , have been the route of  agencys that do not allow contact, and run up the credit cards etc.  . I found that some of these same ladies that were on the bad agencys could be found on free sites, or a site that allow a phone contact, e-mail etc.  It might be worth your time to check it out, if you are serious about contacting this lady without an agency.   The lady may be for real or if contacted on another site, may never even heard of you  if the bad site is doing all the letter writing.   
    My now wife was listed on several sites, unbeknown to her, as she only signed up with one which allowed phone # with her approval.   Once you find more personal ways to communicate and feel there is potential for a serious relationship, then go see her as soon as you can swing several days off.  also, skype-type calling is very economical.  communicating with a fsu lady with limited english is all expressed on another thread, and you can check it out.  Certainly not impossible but can be challenging as can be the whole k-1 process.   -jj

Thanks, I've checked a few sites and she is not on any that I've seen.  I've wondered about the multiple listing phenomena.  I now know that one of the ladies I was interested in was listed on at least two other sites.  Had the photos been the same I would have thought bad agency(s) but the photos were quite different so it is anyone's guess.

Is there a "protocol" for contacting a lady through another site if you've had some correspondence through an agency?  Obviously you cannot use the agency to tell her you'll contact her through the other site.  On the other hand if you weren't that into her it would be rather funny to see what happens.

[SANDRO43]

Thanks, I've checked a few sites and she is not on any that I've seen.  I've wondered about the multiple listing phenomena.  I now know that one of the ladies I was interested in was listed on at least two other sites.  Had the photos been the same I would have thought bad agency(s) but the photos were quite different so it is anyone's guess.

Why the wonder? Wider exposure is one of the most basic marketing techniques .

Is there a "protocol" for contacting a lady through another site if you've had some correspondence through an agency? Obviously you cannot use the agency to tell her you'll contact her through the other site.  On the other hand if you weren't that into her it would be rather funny to see what happens.

A "protocol" ? Are you from the CIA or MI6 ? Just contact her and say: "Hi, I'm the Joe who previously wrote you through agency X" .

[jdk1963]

Why the wonder? Wider exposure is one of the most basic marketing techniques .

Marketing I understand, it works great for scammers too.

A "protocol" ? Are you from the CIA or MI6 ? Just contact her and say: "Hi, I'm the Joe who previously wrote you through agency X" .

The worst that can happen is that she'll say she never wrote me!  I've tried that twice in both cases they never responded to the correspondence through the alternative site.  With the first lady she wrote to say she met her soul-mate, hmm.  With the second lady she just never responded, she was however extremely strange and when she said she hadn't paid any bills in 4 months then asked when I was coming to see her  :usdeyes: I got the flu. (Yes I really did get the flu)

 

[SANDRO43]

The worst that can happen is that she'll say she never wrote me! I've tried that twice in both cases they never responded to the correspondence through the alternative site.

Which probably means that you were written to by Fat Yuri (see definition in the RWD Glossary) or agency staff .

With the second lady she just never responded, she was however extremely strange and when she said she hadn't paid any bills in 4 months then asked when I was coming to see her I got the flu. (Yes I really did get the flu)

You should be grateful if you suffer from scam allergy .

[jdk1963]

Which probably means that you were written to by Fat Yuri (see definition in the RWD Glossary) or agency staff .

Agency staff.  It takes a while to see patterns develop but they eventually establish themselves.  I show an interest in a woman and she disappears or gets "engaged" around this time I'll get intro letters from a few interested women.  Lather, rinse, repeat!

[kievstar]

Women in agencies do not write men first.  It is the agency worker sending you the letters.  If you want women to send you letters first, than join Elena's models. 

Agencies are convent for women.  The agency writes and reads all letters for them and screen the men who want to visit them in person.  Sometimes agencies make up excuses to guys that girls do not want to meet in person.  High quality women get many visitors and they need to screen out the men who come to visit them as they can not met them all. 

That is why visit often and see many is the best approach.  You will know when you found the right one.  When this happens stop seeing other women.  This process is not really hard. Get away from the letter writing and make a plan on how to visit often. 

[jdk1963]

Women in agencies do not write men first.  It is the agency worker sending you the letters.  If you want women to send you letters first, than join Elena's models. 

Agencies are convent for women.  The agency writes and reads all letters for them and screen the men who want to visit them in person.  Sometimes agencies make up excuses to guys that girls do not want to meet in person.  High quality women get many visitors and they need to screen out the men who come to visit them as they can not met them all. 

That is why visit often and see many is the best approach.  You will know when you found the right one.  When this happens stop seeing other women.  This process is not really hard. Get away from the letter writing and make a plan on how to visit often. 

While that may work for you it does not work for me.  Additionally I am not going to plan on going anywhere unless I have identified at least 2 -3 women I am interested in meeting.  And then as you suggest I want to schedule several trips. Not just 1 and done.

Additionally if what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then what the agency is doing is contrary to what the owner claims.  Not that I should be surprised.

Like beauty "high quality" is in the eye of the beholder.

[jdk1963]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9680.msg187154#msg187154

If you'd identified an attractive woman who you've established is genuine, and you share some common interests or goals, then it' s time to book a ticket (IMHO).

Excellent advice!  I have not established that she is genuine and given some of what has happened I have doubts about even attempting to try any further.  Contrary to Meatloaf 2 out of 3 ain't good. 

Kiev, I don't really care if they write first only that they write back.