Russians in the US - Anecdotal

[ECOCKS]

I was amused by my wife's seatmates on the Kyiv-NYC Delta flight this last week.

Of the two women, one was in her mid-40's and broke the ice by commenting on my wife reading a Lee Child's book (English) after takeoff. The woman and her mid-60's mother (the other seatmate) had been living in the US since 1999. My wife asked a question in English but the women refused to talk in English and insisted on conversing in Russian. The mother stated she had no English skills even after 10 years and the daughter indicated she had never read a contemporary novel in English and saw no reason she would ever try to do so.

They both were in shock that my wife was en route to live in Boise, Idaho. :whirling:

The mother wanted to know how my wife would find Russian foods, books, movies, magazines and other assorted products. They then spent roughly eight hours telling her how she should convince me to move to the Brighton Beach area of NYC where there were real rinoks, aptekas, magazines, etc. It was interesting that they quickly pointed out that there is also a thriving industry there for providing false papers for insurance, social security and welfare programs as well.

I should also point out that neither woman was married to an AM but were part of the immigrant FSU Jewish population wave which came in during the 90's.

This reinforced my wife's determination to stay away from the Russian community in the US with the very few exceptions of a couple of our friends from Ukraine who expect to be heading over in the next couple of years. Even those will be long-distance friendships since none expect to live anywhere near a large city.

Seems I am now forbidden even the occasional Baltika and blini at the local Russian Cafe. My son's fledgling taste for borsch will have to grow on his dime, not mine.

[Misha]

They then preceded to spend roughly eight hours telling her how she should convince me to move to the Brighton Beach area of NYC where there were real rinoks, aptekas, magazines, etc.

I visited the infamous Brighton Beach a few years ago when I was in NYC. The impression that I got was that it was a real dump. If I remember correction, it was tucked in under a freeway overpass of some sort. It would not have been my first choice of neighborhoods to live in if I were moving to NYC, rynoks or not.

[ECOCKS]

Don't know about "under a freeway overpass" but it was described to me as comprising around 35-40 blocks of the Coney Island area.  Wikipedia shows this information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_Beach

Talks about luxury condos and beach areas so, while not exactly a prime spot for the next Donald Trump casino (or maybe it is come to think of it) it is not a particularly blighted section of NYC. I had a Russian buddy whose mother, father and brother lived there and he indicated it was a pretty reasonable area.

[Misha]

I guess that I did not go to the right section of Brighton Beach then. After doing all the other touristy things in New York, I just remember not being particularly impressed.

[ECOCKS]

From what I understood, it's definitely NOT touristy, except maybe for the Coney Island proximity. Even CI seems to have lost a lot of its allure over the last decade or two though. One student who visited there brought me pictures of Apteka's and other cyrillic alphabet advertisements along Brighton Beach Blvd. which reminded me of the Spanish, Vietnamese and Chinese signage in some neighborhoods in Southern Cal.

[Misha]

From what I understood, it's definitely NOT touristy, except maybe for the Coney Island proximity.

Yes, that is what I said: AFTER doing the touristy things in NYC, I went to Brighton Beach. I went there not as a tourist destination, but simply because it had a lot of Russian bookstores and restaurants.

 

[mendeleyev]

There are most definitely at least two kinds of Russians/Ukrainians in North America, perhaps more than two. I was part of a meeting recently where the first speaker has become a very successful real estate investor (well up until 2 years ago) and has lived in the USA for almost 20 years.

The second speaker was completely opposite in style and attitude. He began his talk as if he was still back in the CCCP, by thanking the Party for his (superior) education and correct upbringing. I get the feeling Ed that he'd have felt right at home with the ladies your wife wished to avoid.

[viking]

Ecocks. I wonder if your wife was on the sme plane as me. I arrived back from Kiev last Sunday. As far as Brighton is concerned, I live about 40 minutes away and have been there a few times. The overpass is actually an overhead rail (train) system, part of the NYC subway. The area has a great beach and boardwalk and some good places to shop for ethnic foods. And some excellent resturants and clubs. But it is a city environment. The apartments off the main drag are not the best, but walk a few blocks away and there are some pretty nice homes. There have been some newer bulidings put up, many considered luxury, but more on the waterfront area.

[kievstar]

In Milwaukee many of the Russians live in an area just north of the city which is a real toilet.  There is a Russian pharmacy, several Russian food stores, and other Russian stores as well.  As houses are sold in that area by non Russians they are quickly bought up by the Russians in the area. I have friends in that area who all came over late 1980's from Belarus and only the children at that time speak English as they had to because of school.  All the aunts, uncles, parents speak no English.  There are numerous families like this.  No different than the southside with all the Mexicans in Milwaukee who do not learn English.

This past week  I went to a Ukraine dentist in Chicago area (been in USA 16 years).  Was asking her and her staff where I can live to be close to Ukraine people for my wife if we decide to live in Chicago.  She told me about Nile and Buffalo Grove (couple of other cities but I forget names) but she told me there is a big population of Russian people you should stay away from. She would not get into details but said their up to no good.  She told me better to have my wife stay clear of living in Russian areas.  Good to visit Russian stores and restaurants but not to live. I know there are many people here from Chicago what are your thoughts? 

[Doll]

The thread stinks a little bit
(ECOCKS , to be technical- Russians are from Russia, Kiev in Ukraine)
The whole thread stinks.

[Misha]

The overpass is actually an overhead rail (train) system, part of the NYC subway.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, when I was walking around the neighborhood, I was in the shadow of this structure looming overhead.

[Chicagoguy]

It is true that some Russians who come here do not assimilate well and never learn English. But in some major cities this is also true for other nationalities.

In my opinion it is their loss.

[ECOCKS]

Kiev and Medel:

As that wiki link indicates, the area seems pretty typical of the ethnic areas that have always been part of the NY mystique. In some ways, it sounds neat and as much worth a visit as SF's Chinatown. While the days of Little Italy apparently have declined rapidly, the ethnicity of this area, particularly with its original Jewish population still seem to be carrying on strong.

Another student had a sister who lived in Chicago for two or three years and described that the community there is similar if a bit smaller and less organized. Here I noticed that the closest the Russians get to being organized centers around the church. Which is interesting since I never saw any indication in Kyiv that the churches had much of a social focus.

Doll:

Not sure of your point regarding "stinks" but feel free to ignore it if it bothers you for some reason. For the most part, my wife considers herself ethnic, if not politically, Russian. Even this Russian section of NY has the nickname of Little Odessa. Obviously, the population is mixed since the link mentions satellite areas of Armenians, Georgians and such. I actually found the stories about the place interesting from the historical perspective. Apparently the Jewish community is (or possibly was) instrumental in setting up this enclave originally.

One story I heard from there involved the renting of buses for use in closing off the streets during an almost pitched battle between the Jewish community and the other ethnic groups which were originally or at least prior in the area nearly a couple of decades ago. Real urban history lore.

[myrddin]

This past week  I went to a Ukraine dentist in Chicago area (been in USA 16 years).  Was asking her and her staff where I can live to be close to Ukraine people for my wife if we decide to live in Chicago.  She told me about Nile and Buffalo Grove (couple of other cities but I forget names) but she told me there is a big population of Russian people you should stay away from. She would not get into details but said their up to no good.  She told me better to have my wife stay clear of living in Russian areas.  Good to visit Russian stores and restaurants but not to live. I know there are many people here from Chicago what are your thoughts? 

There's Ukrainian Village, though near some not so nice parts of the city.

I'd guess she might have been referring to organized crime (though thankfully I don't have much experience with that). Could also be the general impression that Russians look down on Ukrainians.

Just a couple days ago I encountered some Russians in Buffalo Grove, but I didn't find out their attitudes towards Ukrainians. ;-)  In nearby Wheeling there's a fairly large store that sells a lot of Russian books and DVDs, alas (for me) hardly any with English subtitles (at least not on my last visit).

Buffalo Grove is a pretty big town as suburbs go.  I've looked into moving there - the part in Lake County.  Cook County is rightly known for corruption, ever increasing taxes, and high gas prices.  And as of 1 June anyone buying or selling property in Cook County is supposed to be fingerprinted.

[Sculpto]

Doll, I agree with you that the thread stinks in a way.  Ecocks original post was written in an incredibly insensitive way that in my view was designed to evoke a certain response.  If he has said it that way to my face I would have punched him in the nose.  No kidding. 

"I should also point out that neither woman was married to an AM but were part of the immigrant FSU Jewish population wave which came in during the 90's."

In the context of his entire post this implies that it is the Jewish community that is corrupt.  Ecocks is smart enough to have written it to appear innocent, but, I understand quite well his code language and I am sure it is pretty transparent to a lot of others as well.

There are enclaves of Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Armenians all around the country who did not come here on K1s and K3s.  They came at different periods in history.  I know one family that came before the revolution and I am pretty sure if I pushed them for some more family history they would indicate some sort of aristocratic background.  It is pretty unusual for 4th generation immigrants to still speak their original language daily, but, this family does. 

The Jewish Russians, Ukrainians etc started coming as religious refugees in the late 1970's.  But wait.. they also came in the 1890s-1910s.  In all instances they were escaping rampant persecution.  Read about the Pale of Settlement and the pograms for the earlier group.  Read about the professional destruction and private persecution under the USSR for the later group.  Shell shocked immigrants do not always make for smooth transitions.

Have a walk around the lower east side of Manhattan.. lots of signs in Hebrew.. but most of the shopkeepers are speaking Russian.  If you don't know how much American popular culture over the last 100 years started from that little part of Manhattan.. do a bit of research, its pretty amazing actually. 

Then there are the wave of ethnic Russians and other FSU nationalities that came right after the collapse.  Soviets who managed to get a visa.. and how many mafioso/corrupt government officials found their way over here.  Go have a look in places like El Paso Texas at some of the gyms.. you might be surprised how many Russian men with underworld connections are hanging out at the gym all day.  How many of the resident experts understand the connections between the gym and the mafia? 

And then there are the most current wave of immigrants.. GC lottery winners.. business people with enough money to buy their green cards who need a way to spirit their wealth out of the FSU before Putin or some other crony decide to steal it back.. people who overstay their work travel and other student visas.. and so on.

Honestly.. I think the percentage of K1/K3 FSU immigrants to the US is pretty small overall relative to the FSU community.  I also think most of the immigrants are having a very normal immigration experience in this country.  They start off in enclaves.. their kids speak Russian at home and English outside.. their grandkids will understand Russian but not speak it and finally they next generation will not speak Russian at all and they will feel 100% American.. and.. as adults some of them may decide to go back and revisit their roots and rediscover what was lost in the process of Americanization.  The less normal immigration is the K1/K3 in which fiances have the benefit of an American spouse to help them adjust.

BTW.. sorry for making this post so America centric. 

[Boethius]

Doll, I agree with you that the thread stinks in a way.  Ecocks original post was written in an incredibly insensitive way that in my view was designed to evoke a certain response.  If he has said it that way to my face I would have punched him in the nose.  No kidding.  

"I should also point out that neither woman was married to an AM but were part of the immigrant FSU Jewish population wave which came in during the 90's."

In the context of his entire post this implies that it is the Jewish community that is corrupt.  Ecocks is smart enough to have written it to appear innocent, but, I understand quite well his code language and I am sure it is pretty transparent to a lot of others as well.

I didn't take it that way.  I took it as a description that they were immigrants who moved into an immigrant world, rather than the broader American society.  That is reality.  It doesn't matter if the person is Russian, Ukrainian, Georgian, Jewish, or Mexican, etc.  An immigrant married to an American is going to have a different emigre experience from one who is surrounded by other immigrants.

The Jewish Russians, Ukrainians etc started coming as religious refugees in the late 1970's.  But wait.. they also came in the 1890s-1910s.  In all instances they were escaping rampant persecution.  Read about the Pale of Settlement and the pograms for the earlier group.  Read about the professional destruction and private persecution under the USSR for the later group.  Shell shocked immigrants do not always make for smooth transitions.

You are wrong about most Jews facing rampant persecution in the 1970's.  Most Jews who emigrated in the 1970's started leaving for the same reason anyone would have left the USSR.  It was an unfree society.  Religious Jews (a minority) didn't emigrate to the West.  They emigrated to Israel.  As for persecution, just to clarify, there was no persecution of Jews when they first started emigrating.  The persecution came after Jews started emigrating.  

Then there are the wave of ethnic Russians and other FSU nationalities that came right after the collapse.  Soviets who managed to get a visa.. and how many mafioso/corrupt government officials found their way over here.  Go have a look in places like El Paso Texas at some of the gyms.. you might be surprised how many Russian men with underworld connections are hanging out at the gym all day.  How many of the resident experts understand the connections between the gym and the mafia?  

Very true.  The funny thing is, the Russian government tried to warn the US government of this phenomenom, and the problems they'd face.  They were ignored.


I don't think the thread stinks.  I think the intent was just to show why Ecock's wife doesn't want to mix with the immigrant community.  I suspect it was not speaking English that was the main point in the original post.  

ETA - Incidentally, this was a big issue in Israel a few years ago.  Emigres from Russia, mostly, there said living in Israel was very comfortable, "like Moscow in the 1950's".  They refused to speak Hebrew, started several of their own newspapers, and were importing salo and other pork products, which caused quite an uproar among Orthodox rabbis, who tried (unsuccessfully) to have the imports banned.

[Misha]

I don't think the thread stinks.  I think the intent was just to show why Ecock's wife doesn't want to mix with the immigrant community.

That is the way that I saw it as well. The point as I understand it is that some immigrants are very parochial and establish a known comfort zone in their new countries, and that some of these immigrants may not understand how other immigrants are much more active in opening themselves up to the larger culture that surrounds them.

[kievstar]

Many Russians (I am referring to all FSU) became Jews to get out of the FSU.  I am not up to speed on the Jewish faith but I have been told once a year men go and talk about sins.  Here in Milwaukee the joke is the Jewish Russians, Ukrainians, and Belorussians did not participate when they first came over and since lost the faith they made up to leave FSU.  Of course there is a huge population of FSU who are actually Jewish but there is a huge population that made it up to get out of the FSU.  The population of FSU who used their money, lied about religion, or bribes to get to the USA is made up of many dirt bags.  My dentist in Chicago was referring to FSU not only Russians.  Ukrainian mafia generally is more ruthless than Russian mafia.  

Scultpo, I did not know about the gym business in El Paso but makes sense to me.  I used to go to the gyms in Kiev to sell cars.  Why, because during the day that is where the corrupt men hang out and the ones who can afford and want the expensive cars with the bullet proof glass and special compartments.    They also liked the cars (BMW's) to come from USA.  So I guess the younger mafia types like the gym universally.  

  

[Boethius]

Many Russians (I am referring to all FSU) became Jews to get out of the FSU.  I am not up to speed on the Jewish faith but I have been told once a year men go and talk about sins.  Here in Milwaukee the joke is the Jewish Russians, Ukrainians, and Belorussians did not participate when they first came over and since lost the faith they made up to leave FSU.  Of course there is a huge population of FSU who are actually Jewish but there is a huge population that made it up to get out of the FSU.  The population of FSU who used their money, lied about religion, or bribes to get to the USA is made up of many dirt bags.  My dentist in Chicago was referring to FSU not only Russians.  Ukrainian mafia generally is more ruthless than Russian mafia.  

I think someone is pulling your leg.  There was no way to convert to Judaism in the USSR.  Being Jewish had nothing to do with religion, it was considered a separate ethnic identity.

People declared their ethnicity for their internal passports at age 16.  That ethnicity had to be the same as that of one of the person's parents.   It was virtually impossible to change the passport once it was issued.  No bribe would change that because of the way passports were regulated.  However, if you had a Jewish father, and your passport listed you as "Jewish" because of that, you and your non Jewish family could emigrate, although, by Jewish law, you would not be a Jew.

Jews don't confess to any other person.  They have a day of atonement, called Yom Kippur.  No food or liquid is taken on Yom Kippur.  But, it is a day of internal reflection and prayer, and in some Jewish sects, there is a public confession at synagogue.  Jews I know, even those that are not at all religious, observe Yom Kippur and go to synagogue that day.

[Misha]

Many Russians (I am referring to all FSU) became Jews to get out of the FSU.

To leave the FSU and immigrate to Israel, you have to demonstrate that you had at least one of your grandparents was Jewish (recorded in their passport or birth certificate). Of course, this means that many who could immigrate knew little or nothing about Judaism as perhaps their sole grandparent who was Jewish was not necessarily practicing the faith (many were Communists and practices the ideals of atheism). There are also reports that with the right "gifts" that the necessary paperwork could be forged which complicated things as well.

[kievstar]

Hi Boethius, read this.  Many Jews came to USA through Israel.  These Russians were not Jewish.  

Regarding the once a year meeting about sins it is more of a joke as they only used the Jewish faith to get into the USA.  Just like many Indians (not American Indians) go the Canada way to eventually get into USA.   The movement of Jews to Israel was greatest when FSU collapsed.


http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5602-3.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Mafia

[Boethius]

There are also reports that with the right "gifts" that the necessary paperwork could be forged which complicated things as well.

Impossible.  This was an extremely controlled system.  The party had archives which ensured they knew exactly who your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., were.  You were nailed down with your propiska, you were nailed down with three papers if you were a male.  

People lie about this now because nobody wants to admit they were part of the system.

Ukrainian mafia generally is more ruthless than Russian mafia.

They are all the same.

[Boethius]

Hi Boethius, read this.  Many Jews came to USA through Israel.  These Russians were not Jewish.  

Regarding the once a year meeting about sins it is more of a joke as they only used the Jewish faith to get into the USA.  Just like many Indians (not American Indians) go the Canada way to eventually get into USA.   The movement of Jews to Israel was greatest when FSU collapsed.


http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/5602-3.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Mafia

They could only emigrate if their destination was Israel.  Most did not actually go to Israel in the 1970's.  The transit point was Vienna, and from there, many went to the US. 

[Misha]

Impossible.  This was an extremely controlled system.  The party had archives which ensured they knew exactly who your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., were.  You were nailed down with your propiska, you were nailed down with three papers if you were a male.  

Again, I said that I heard rumours that in the years following the collapse of the Soviet Union that some people found ways of getting altered documents. Besides, the propiska system did not cover everybody until the 1950s. Those living on collective farms did not even have an internal passport until well after the end of the second world war.

[Boethius]

Again, I said that I heard rumours that in the years following the collapse of the Soviet Union that some people found ways of getting altered documents. Besides, the propiska system did not cover everybody until the 1950s. Those living on collective farms did not even have an internal passport until well after the end of the second world war.

Why would they need altered documents after the collapse?  Israel didn't regulate this particularly carefully.  They were happy to have an increase in their non Arab population.

Those on collective farms did not have passports until the early 1970's.  But, they had the party organization - the police, the KGB.  Any attempt to leave the village was prosecuted criminally.  It was virtually impossible to leave.  You couldn't get a job without a passport.

Also, the head of the collective farm kept all passports.  Each case of giving a passport into someone's hands had to be reported to the second secretary of the district (who was responsible for the KGB).  It was very difficult, almost impossible, to leave a collective farm.  This is why almost the entire Soviet navy was comprised of peasants.  It was one of the few ways of escaping the collective farm.