Russians in the US - Anecdotal

[Sculpto]

Well, it sounds like your acquaintance was too stupid to understand what was going on.  Every bribe to the KGB would have been reported.  He likely was a small fish in the operations.

I have no idea.  What I do know is he had access to a lot of money.  He didn't come off as stupid.. just corrupt and arrogant.  Also.. I find it really hard to believe that the control was so complete.. the brainwashing so thorough.. if it really was.. then why were so many people sent to the gulag and the psychological torture centers?

[Boethius]

Control was very complete.  But, that doesn't mean everyone understood this.  In fact, most people didn't understand this.

In Stalin's time, people were sent to the gulags for practically no reason.  Later, it was usually for stating something that the party found "dangerous".  But, this usually only happened after a prolonged period of allowing people to expose themselves, to feel they could speak.   Often, these periods were KGB orchestrated campaigns.

Also, not everyone who needed to be "brought into line" went to a gulag.  Many went to camps close to home that were not as severe as gulags, but were still there for punishment for their thoughts. 

[kievstar]

Ukraine mafia likes to traffic Ukraine women through Israel to other areas of the World.  Not as common now but was a big money making in the past. Israel also has the highest hooker to person ratio in the world (Jewish faith is not about this).  Many FSU lied about being Jewish to benefit from it.  I have been to Israel and many corrupt foreign FSU live there.  

Changing documents has been in the past and currently is easy in Ukraine.  The KGB and Russian military was a mess in the 1980's they could not verify anything.  The FSU was disorganized and collapsing. Ukraine was very corrupt in the Crimea area. Ukraine mafia had strongest roots in Sevastopol area.

Hi Sculpto, I could tell she was a woman as RW will be more passionate on this than a RM.  RW take more pride in their country and people.  This debate will go on and on forever.

Hard for me to post certain links as I am not anti Jewish and there are a lot of bogus stuff on the internet.  Attached link is not to be offensive but some of the articles will support my case.  

http://jewwatch.com/jew-crime-mob-russia-ussr.html

[Sculpto]

Kiev.. funny you found that site also.. I was just reading some of the garbage there..

I also found this which is a bit more scholarly..

http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/beyond-the-pale/english/guide-cond.html

[Boethius]

Ukraine mafia likes to traffic Ukraine women through Israel to other areas of the World.  Not as common now but was a big money making in the past. Israel also has the highest hooker to person ratio in the world (Jewish faith is not about this).  Many FSU lied about being Jewish to benefit from it.  I have been to Israel and many corrupt foreign FSU live there. 

Changing documents has been in the past and currently is easy in Ukraine.  The KGB and Russian military was a mess in the 1980's they could not verify anything.  The FSU was disorganized and collapsing. Ukraine was very corrupt in the Crimea area. Ukraine mafia had strongest roots in Sevastopol area.

Hi Sculpto, I could tell she was a woman as RW will be more passionate on this than a RM.  RW take more pride in their country and people.  This debate will go on and on forever.

Hard for me to post certain links as I am not anti Jewish and there are a lot of bogus stuff on the internet.  Attached link is not to be offensive but some of the articles will support my case.   

http://jewwatch.com/jew-crime-mob-russia-ussr.html

Most of those women were trafficked not knowing they would be forced into prostitution.  Prostitution was/is not illegal in Israel, so there were no consequences to pimps when the women were caught.  The women were just deported.  Israeli feminists started denouncing the government for the deportations years ago, but Israel started making changes to make it more difficult to traffic women when the US State Department put pressure on them.  Yes, most of the gangsters trafficking to Israel were ethnically Jewish, but not all FSU mobsters are ethnically Jewish.  I think "jew watch" is affiliated with Stormfront, so I'd take what they publish with a grain of salt.  They tend to take a truth and twist it, and I have read things on their site about the Bolsheviks which has been outright wrong.

ETA - For the past few years, Turkey has been the number 1 destination for trafficked women from Ukraine and Moldova.  When they escape, unlike in Israel, the police send the women back to their pimps.

You are absolutely wrong, kievstar, about the KGB and the Russian military in the 1980's.  Believe me, they were extremely efficient, as was the military (my husband was redrafted in 1990 to work at Chernobyl').  They, and the police, were the only parts of the USSR that were working at that time.

[Bored1]

The point as I understand it is that some immigrants are very parochial and establish a known comfort zone in their new countries, and that some of these immigrants may not understand how other immigrants are much more active in opening themselves up to the larger culture that surrounds them.

Yes this is true.  The same is recognised by long term foreigners in Moscow.

[Bored1]

My Uncle cannot speak any English but he got a US Passport in the 1990s.  He now spen 6 month in Beverly Hill and 6 month in Moscow.

I ask him why he does not learn English and he say he has no need.

My Aunt also speaks no English so both speak only Russian when in Beverly.

[SANDRO43]

I lived in the USSR in the 1980's and my husband and I had many, many dealings with the KGB. Believe me, they were extremely efficient, as was the military (my husband was redrafted in 1990 to work at Chernobyl').  They, and the police, were the only parts of the USSR that were working at that time.

I am not a RW.

What are you then, the world wonders ? A UW?

Unless this is privileged information that, disclosed, may embarass both the KGB FSB and yourself ?

[ECOCKS]

Typical Days in the US:

Taking a drive yesterday I was once again reminded of the joys of experiencing a new country and culture. We went to Shoshone Falls which are actually higher than Niagra, though not as wide. Natural springs shooting out a of a cliff face from a couple hundred feet up, fish hatcheries along the river course, great drive. In fact, a great experience and my wife loved that you can get frozen bananas dipped in chocolate. Beautiful lake nearby, some fried chicken and salads for a picnic, a great day.

The funny part was that at the end of the day I asked what was the best part of the day and her answer was "the cowboys." En route I had driven down a state road and passed a large cattle pen. I noticed that they were roping and branding so did a U-turn to go back and look. Yep, about 7-8 cowboys were lassoing calves, dragging them to where they were gelded (castrated), medicated and branded. Dirty, bloody, noisy and smelly, but that was her favorite. Except for the honorable mention of the banana and chocolate.

Life's pleasures are where you find them.

[groovlstk]

My wife and I live an easy, 40-min. subway ride from Brighton. We were there once, during the first week of her arrival. It's a quaint place - the Land that Time Forgot - and there are some great Russian restaurants and clubs w/headliners flying in from Russia and Ukraine all year round.

The beach and boardwalk are nice, but the entire neighborhood is dirty and disheveled. (The beaches at Coney Island and Brighton have long had a reputation as "the world's biggest ashtray.") It seems to me a very strong expat magnet - many newly arrived Russian and Ukrainian people feel very at home there, but as far as assimilating it's the kiss of death. (On a related note, I steered my wife away from working for Russian companies in our area because that is also the kiss of death, career- wise.)

[kievstar]

Hi Boethius,

Can you explain your dealings with the KGB and why they were efficient.  Your one of the first persons I have met to say KGB was efficient during the 1980's. 

Russian military ran into some problems in Afghanistan. 

[ConnerVT]

The funny part was that at the end of the day I asked what was the best part of the day and her answer was "the cowboys." En route I had driven down a state road and passed a large cattle pen. I noticed that they were roping and branding so did a U-turn to go back and look. Yep, about 7-8 cowboys were lassoing calves, dragging them to where they were gelded (castrated), medicated and branded.

As long as she's not making any plans....   

    

[mendeleyev]

It didn't matter if you were a Jew, or a Russian, or a Georgian, or a Ukrainian.  What mattered was loyalty to the party.

Boethius, partially true. Neither do I agree regarding both the number of Jews in Russia (and the CCCP) and about the extent of persecution post Stalin.

As you may be aware, Article 52 of the U.S.S.R. Constitution defined freedom of conscience as the right "to conduct religious worship or atheist propaganda." Not the difference in what activity was open to one but closed to another. While religious worship was supposedly protected, in fact this formulation in effect made it illegal the conduct of "religious propaganda"; i.e., to engage in public discussion about religion or refute atheist propaganda.

The 1929 Law on Religious Associations circumscribed worshiper's rights still further. Soviet authorities interpreted the law's requirement that primary religious associations registered with local authorities thereby granting local authorities the right to grant or withhold registration. In practice, this allowed the state to limit the number of religious associations, to reduce their number gradually, and even to deny legal status to an entire religious denomination (as was the case with the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses).

Between 1959 and 1989, the Jewish population in the Soviet Union declined somewhere betwee 900,000 to 1.5 million. The decline was officially attributed to several factors--low birth rate, intermarriage, concealment of Jewish identity, and emigration. Now that looks plausible on the service, but how does "concealment of identity" or intermarriage for example contribute to a real decline?! They're there--just listed as something else.

[Boethius]

Mendeleyev, technically, if someone complied with all the registration procedures (list of attendees, list of party members who would observe, even how and when somone could be baptized), any religious denomination could be legalized.  Many religious groups refused to do this.  But, that was the intent, as atheism was state ideology.  The "propaganda of religion" was strictly forbidden.  My husband, who refused to join the Komsomol, was a regular attendee at Vladimirsky Sobor in Kyiv.  He was routinely asked what this or that (i.e. religious doctrine, icons, etc.) meant.  It was a provocation to arrest him, because this was a criminal offence (given the experiences of the men in his family, he knew the Soviet Criminal Code inside out and backward).

Stalin wanted to infiltrate the Uniate Church the way the Orthodox Church had been, but the Vatican maintained control  That is why Uniate Churches were closed.

Between 1959 and 1989, the Jewish population decreased 40% as a result of emigration.  Some of the decline is due to the fact that most families in that period had only one child, so they were not replacing themselves.  And, assimilation (a child can choose the nationality on his/her passport if he/she has parents of differing ethnic origins) played a role as well.

In Ukraine, there were mixed marriages among Jews and Russians/Ukrainians, but there were also still, even into the 1970's, arranged marriages.

[kievstar]

Hi Boethius, many FSU people live in Milwaukee and came in the 1980's.   I can introduce them to you if you are ever in Milwaukee.  There are several thousand of them and Milwaukee is not a FSU city of choice in America.

KGB arrested you grandfather and father for nothing you say but you argue they are efficient?

[Boethius]

Anyone who emigrated in the 1980''s is Jewish (or married to someone Jewish who was emigrating).  Their experiences with the KGB likely were limited to their emigration, and at that time, it was minimal. Contrast this with the 1970's, when Jews who wished to emigrate lost their jobs, were denied new jobs, were harrassed on the street, etc.  It had nothing to do with a lack of efficiency but rather, a change in official policy.

Almost everyone the KGB arrested was arrested for nothing.  That is the nature of state control in a totalitarian society.  There was no crime committed.  They were not threats to society.  It was ideological.   Akin to the Holocaust - Jews and Roma were liquidated for nothing, and no one can deny, it was undertaken and completed  in an extremely efficient manner.

[ECOCKS]

Well, you can be efficient at what you do and still be arresting people for things others consider "wrong" it isn't really related to the effectiveness score. Using Boethius' description, following people, bugging apartments, working a network of informants, operating gulags, etc. all involve organizational efficiency. They were doing (apparently) what their bosses wanted them to. The German Wermacht was extremely efficient in the execution of their blitzkreig attacks in the first few years of the war. The fact that they were serving the Nazi political system doesn't reduce their efficincy level.

[kievstar]

I agree Ecocks.  But the fact so much information leaked by the KGB in the 1980's and they fact they took bribes tells me it was not very efficient or organized (FBI is not organized as well).  1980's was a disaster for the FSU - Chernobyl, Afghanistan, mass exodus of people, financial distress, poverty.  1980's was not a good decade for the FSU.

[Faux Pas]

Mind you I am no historian and certainly no expert on the KGB but if I recall correctly the KGB even through the 80's were still the elite espionage organization in the world. If second to anyone it would have been the Israelis but certainly the KGB was still some of the most efficient and ruthless in the world. I don't understand why anyone can state that the KGB was inefficient at any time, they were not.

Kiev a comparison with the FBI doesn't really make any sense as they are "mostly" a domestic law enforcement agency. A better comparison would be with the CIA as both the KGB and the CIA were espionage foes as far back as the beginning of the cold war. Don't think for a minute that the CIA didn't violate some citizens rights much in the same way as the KGB. They didn't have gulags but they had many other methods of information extraction.

[kievstar]

Hi Fauxpas, I was not comparing FBI to KGB there are different.  So is CIA to KGB.  So is FSB to KGB.

Can you provide me with some more details on why KGB in 1980's was efficient. 

[Faux Pas]

Hi Fauxpas, I was not comparing FBI to KGB there are different.  So is CIA to KGB.  So is FSB to KGB.

Can you provide me with some more details on why KGB in 1980's was efficient. 

No I can't as I am only relying on a weak memory from childhood forward and I will tend to believe those such as Boethius who lived it. The KGB was extremely proficient in stealing national security secrets the world over especially from the US and if they were half as efficient domestically in the FSU it is impressive. The KGB was relentless in reaching their objectives. Many of the highest ranking communist officials lived in fear of the KGB. Even the Waffen SS would have been in awe. I don't have any specific information, as I said only what I remember from that time period and most of it was probably the brain washing we had in the 60's and 70's. Russia/KGB= bad US/democracy=Good.

A couple of times I have visited the wall (it's a park now, forget the name) in Tomsk where Russian citizens/dissidents were lined up and shot by the KGB so that their bodies could fall straight into the Tomsk river at what use to be KGB headquarters. The building I think now is used by a university.

I realize Kiev you make your living and are likely damn good at it, defining and refining efficiencies in your industry and are probably looking to a specific definition for the KGB. You probably won't find it as there really is no scorecard on the manufacture of fear to an entire population. When you have complete total control and left to go about unfettered, efficient is what you make it. They could and did imprison or kill hundreds based on a whispered rumor. They like the CIA started many conflicts and wars but never fought them. Thus, the Afghan war isn't really applicable either.

[groovlstk]

One of my parents' friends was a retired spook, he claimed years ago (last time I saw him was in the early 90s) that the KGB was superior to the CIA during the Cold War because they worked with fewer ground rules and, unlike the CIA, their workers were among the very best and brightest that the Soviets had to offer.

[Zmejka]

She speaks Russsian just fine, better than Ukrainian in fact, but is always looking for a chance to improve her English. The conversation began when the younger woman asked her about reading the book in English and then told her she lived in NYC. My wife was shocked that the mother didn't speak any English and the daughter insisted on speaking Russian

I wanted to ask the same question as Ranetka. After getting to know that daughter and her mother are Russians your wife still looked for a chance to improve her English with them? Isn't that strange to talk to people of the same native language as you - in other language? Only to take over their accents or mistakes they make? I would be unpleasantly surprised if a Russian person would insist on speaking English with me after knowing I'm also Russian, seems so unnatural. If one wants to improve language skills - anyway it's better to do so with native speakers of the language..
There was a time when i lived in New York and for the last month i lived on Brighton Beach. I know that there you don't feel like being in America, it's totally Russian. i also knew people who didn't learn a sinigle English word living there. But if they're satisfied with that and can do without English - it's their life, not too much to be shoked about it.

[kievstar]

I hear on television how good KGB used to be but to me they fell apart during the 1980's.  I agree they had nothing to do with fighting Afghan war.

My background deals a lot with investigations in foreign corrupt issues plus I have done political consulting in Ukraine and Obama camp.  I may not write the best but it is interesting for me to hear different views.   I agree I am probably not giving KGB enough credit but FSU in the 1980's was a mess just trying to see what the KGB really accomplished in the 1980's.  I know they had a well oil machined prior to the 1980's. 

[Chicagoguy]

I have a question. Is it possible that the KGB seemed so good because they had 2x or 4x as many employees as our FBI and CIA ?