Going down memory lane

[civi68]

Everyone,
I put these posts on the yahoo group. I watched my old European connections video that brought back memories of how I felt back then. Kind of like yearning for the days when I was full of energy and naive.
For those of you who have been doing this a while, I watched my old European
Connections Tour video that was made over 10 years ago. It made me think how
things have changed. I never would have thought I and the friends I met would
still be doing this 10 years later.
I was 30 years old. I was considered young on the tour. I was tired of going
to the bars and seeing more men than women. One good thing is that women were
not as fat as they are now. At the time, I was chasing a girl who seemed to have
a lot of dating options. Another girl with two kids and a dead end job was
chasing me.
I had enough and ordered the tour video. Back then, (1998) even Moscow had
1000 women lined up to meet 50 guys. Women from all over Russia and Ukraine
would travel to meet 30-50 guys. Most of the women were in their 20's and the
guys in their 40's. In Swampie's words, most of the guys had high SMV's. After
watching the video and seeing my options here, I signed up. For weeks, I
couldn't wait!I decided to choose Odessa. Prior to traveling, When I got off of the plane, I
knew something was different. The airport was dirty. The bathrooms were filthy.
But the women everywhere were beautiful and dressed well. The tour operators had
a briefing at the hotel. They emphasized that the tour was for introductions and
to put away your wedding rings. They recommended to go back again to see any
women. By the end of the tour, most guys, including myself, ignored this advice.
The next day was the socials. It was on the 2nd floor. I had to use the
bathroom which was on the 1st floor. When I went downstairs, I had to pass all
of the women waiting for the socials to start. It was just me and over 100
beautiful women. Most of them looked at me and I just kept on going. I thought,
this is going to be great!
And it was. As the women paraded up the stairs, all of the guys were in awe
at how many beautiful women there were. As I met them, most were interested in
meeting me again. Almost all were unemployed. Many traveled and did not have any
money for a place to stay. Where did they stay? Many stayed with the men. I
myself had a woman in my room within 3 days and was sleeping with her. Many of
the women were trying to get the guys to commit to them but we had so many women
to meet. It was uncomfortable sleeping with a girl and then seeing her meeting
other guys and me meeting other women.
In the tour video and on my tour, guys said things that today we would
consider naive. The women were all sweet, affectionate, motivated to marry, etc.
But most of the women treated us well and seemed to consider us as high status.
Little did we realize that most of this was because of the women's financial
situation and unrealistic beliefs about our financial situations. About 80% of
the men started visa paperwork at the end of the tour.
After having a difficult relationship that did not result in marriage, I did
another tour with AFA in September 2001 to St. Petersburg. I was committed to
not doing any visas at the end of the trip. Things were changing. Getting dates
and getting some of the women to speak to you at the socials was a little
harder. More wanted to milk you for drinks. Many of the women had jobs and said
they were not sure about leaving Russia. Some of my dates seemed more interested
in having a good time than being serious about a relationship. At the end of the
tour, the visas were much fewer. Guys were not as excited and some were a little
disappointed. Yes, there were still beautiful women. But the number of guys
having sex dropped. More guys were confused and had situations where the woman
wouldn't kiss them, be affectionate, etc.
Upon my return home, the military activated me and I had to forget any trips
for a while. I found this group. I remember seeing posts for the first time from
Swampwizard and Olga Chotinun. I began to see that guys had been doing this for
a while. At the same time, some of my friends I met at the socials were having
bad experiences with their women. Soon, the "sweet, kind, affectionate" Russian
woman became an unhappy, demanding person wanting to spend unrealistic amounts
of money who either divorced or left before marrying the guy.
   What changes do I see now? Back when I started, guys seemed to have a lot of
choices. Even guys that I thought were strange and not good relationship
material had beautiful women. Traveling meant meeting hundreds of women who were
very interested. Women with children or over 35 were pretty much out of the
race. Was it better? Maybe the fantasy was better because any guy regardless of
age looked more appealing then being unemployed living at home with your parents
in a country that was falling apart. But the end result was more divorces.
Today, most of us are now on the internet or using agencies. Guys are
debating on websites on issues revolving around whether beautiful women will
take short guys, women taking advantage of men, or why a girl is willing to go
on dates but not kiss or sleep with you. Both the men and the women have
choices. Most guys are not going to have a large amount of women writing to them
or wanting to meet them. If you told me that 10 years ago, men would not be
meeting hundreds of women and would have to actively find women prior to
traveling, I would have been shocked.
Although the situation was better for me and other men 10 years ago, today is
better because women will not take anyone and then leave them when they get
here. Yesterday was not reality but a fantasy. As I read on these sites, some
guys still hope for the days when age, money, and physical appearance didn't
matter to beautiful women. These things matter to everyone. Years ago, I saw
guys turn down beautiful women in their late 30's/40's with children because the
young hottie was interested. It is unrealistic for us to expect women not to
consider the same things in a mate that we do.

[Taz]

Good post. Now you've officially reached middle age; that point at where you start to look back more than forward! 

I too have seen the changes of interest in meeting a foreign man. I never was even aware that there was an entire industry devoted to meeting RW/UW during my early trips. I wasn't wife hunting. I actually stumbled across it thanks to a coworker. He asked me why I was going to Russia. Was it to meet Russian women? I must have looked like a total idiot as I was completely clueless that men were going there for the express purpose of finding a wife.

It is amazing to look back through the telescope of time and experience and see the changes...in both us, the women and the perceptions of all.

[Gator]

Civi,

To paraphrase your post, it is more difficult today to garner the attention of young, desirable RW than 8, 9, 10 years ago.  Desperation is less of a motivator, and this should lead to better matching of RW with AM.

Nevertheless, RW still are not on equal footing with their AW sisters, and this could prompt RW selecting men falling short of their physical dream man.  Building a relationship over time and knowing your woman remains paramount, something not easily done in a cross-cultural, long-distance affair.  The more she seems out of one's league, the more time he should take (as in "years").

Civi, how are you doing?  I see that you have met a RW whom you like and recently spent another two weeks with her.

[CCowboy]

Enjoyed reading your post.  I agree that things are much different today.  Even reading about the Swamp Wizard and his SMV theories brought a few smiles.  My experience goes back even further when there were no tours, no agencies, and no internet.  Feeling the same diasppointment in AW, in general, I read an article about a guy who went to Russia using the old Club Prima approach.  I decided to do the same and for a year I planned my trip.  I wrote to 100 women during that year.  Yes, snail mail.  If I remember, 49 responded and by the time of my trip, I had narrowed it down to about 10 women I planned to meet.  So, armed with my disctionary, learned the cyrillic alphabet, knew only Net and Da, I was off for 6 weeks in August 1994.

Looking back, naive and having half a brain was the best way to describe me.  The women I wanted to meet were in Kiev and Uzhgorod Ukraine, and Moscow and Penza Russia.  I met 4 women in Kiev and then I was off to Uzhgorod and a 19 hour train ride.  The woman I met in Uzhgorod was DDG and I stayed with her for 5 days.  Then I went back to Kiev for a few days before heading off to Russia.  I took the train from Kiev to Moscow and then from Moscow to Penza.  I stayed with my lady friend for 4 days and then it was back to Moscow for 10 days and I met 4 more women.  My trip was both an adventure of meeting women as well as being introduced to a new and very different culture.

By the time I got down to my final two weeks, I decided to return to Uzhgorod because she was the only woman I'd consider for marriage.  We did marry but the marriage failed for many reasons.  The biggest was me being not financially stable enough to be doing something like this, and both of us being naive and unprepared for the many adjustments we'd face.  It was a fairytale of the knight on his white horse rescuing his princess from a dismal life.  Looking back, it was still the most enjoyable and exciting of all my trips.  There were no marriage agencies or translators to deal with.  It was just me stumbling along my way.  I don't know how many miles I travelled, but it was a lot, and I remember I spent 8 days riding trains.

Years later when I decided to try again, now it was all about internet, marriage agencies, and translators and the approach had become much more sofisticated and complicated.  Women have become much less excited meeting a foreign man because through the agencies, she was going to meet many men a week....sometimes 2-3 men in the same day.  It often came down to who spent the most money on her as to who she'd give the most attention.  I'll also add that I was going to Moscow. St. Petersburg, and kiev for most of these trips.  Now we have to worry about pro daters and scammers.  I never dreamed about that on my first trip.  Too many trusting men became targets of individuals whose only thought was how to separate a man from his money.  I'd really hate to be a newbie without the aid of a forum like RWD and the men who learned many lessons the hard way.

I'll admit that I have become much more cautious and have eliminated agencies altogether.  I'm also not willing to jump into marriage as I did on my first trip after spending just two weeks together.... but I was rescuing my princess.  On RWD and other forums, we have all read enough horror stories of marriages gone bad.  As has been said many times, this endeavor is not for the faint of heart and it is definitely a high risk high reward adventure.  So why do many men like myself continue to make trip after trip?  For me, the answer is easy.  Because my options are so poor in the U.S., that either I continue to make the trips are resign myself to the fact that I'm destined to remain alone.

I never did the tour route although I did attend one AFA social.  I think in the old days there was an innocence and honesty that is missing today.  It was more about two people trying to meet each other for a happier and better life.  Now we have to weed through the pro daters, the dishonest agencies, and the incompetent people just to have an opportunity to meet a woman whose intentions are honest and simply wants to have a happy marriage and loving home life.  There is a lot to be said for the good old days, but I know I'm not willing to do something as naive and crazy as my first trip.  Times have changed and the approach has to change with the times.  CC    

    

    

    

[ambach123]

One option you have that you did not mention CC, the Latin women option. From what I have read, much easier, less scammers and prodaters.
The women are different though, less intelligent. And few speak any English.

The second thing I would suggest is that I would avoid Ukraine. The economic situation in Ukraine is dire, causing akin to the situation ten years ago. The Ukrainian women, at least some of them want to get out, and they will use the first man who offers them this, only to discard him later.

[kievstar]

Very interesting how it used to be.  But it is very easy now to find a RW.  Not sure how it could have been any easier 10 years ago.  Very easy today. Technology of methods has changed but there are many RW looking.  I found the entire process to be very easy. 

If you marry in your league, a woman will not leave you if your a good man.

[ambach123]

Kievstar, it is a cliche repeated here hundreds of times but I will repeat again " It is very easy to marry a RW, to make the marriage last that is another story ".

I could have married any of the three women I got to know, they were all ready and willing and eager, but I chose not to.

Visit sometime EM and do a search under USA. You will find almost countless RW who are looking for husbands. Almost all of them were brought here by AM. Some are still married and already looking. Another observation mody of these women are younger than 32, so they were brought even younger by the AM.

The inference is clear, there must be something that RW find binding to stay in marriage. The couple is lucky if they have love. RW may have other reasons stay, like if the couple has a child, or she can't survive on her own financially. If none of these things exist, it would be incredibly naive, for any RW, I repeat, any RW to stick around. Does not matter who she is.

The RW are devoid of any moral or ethical dilemmas about it. Their upbringing teaches them that there is nothing unethical in life. You do whatever you have to do to survive and trust no one.

Also I have noted, almost all the RW are looking for a " good life "; what that good life means is different, if she does not get it, she will " upgrade "; league or no league.

[Turboguy]

Personally I don't think it was easier in those days.  It was much, much harder.  The easier part is that you could go on an EC tour and find yourself in a room full of desperate women who would latch onto a repulsive man if it were her only way out of what she saw as a despicable life.   The odds of that marriage lasting were very low.  Getting married is not the goal, being happily married with a good wife is.

If you didn't go the tour route as was my case it was like climbing Mt Everest.  There was no internet.   Catalogs such as Club Prima and Latin-Euro Introductions were the common way.  Snail mail took 5 weeks for a turn around.  25% of all mail was lost.  The services told you not to use a commemorative stamp on your letters since an attractive stamp gave the chance of the letter arriving virtually nil.  There was very little info on how to get a visa to Russia.  There was no internet so no online visa service.  Calling the Russian embassy for visa info was a joke.  Travel agents had no idea.   Booking a hotel was difficult.   There was exactly one hotel in Moscow in the Sabre system and they had to fax a request for a reservation and you were lucky if they would respond at all.  You couldn't just fly like you do here.  You had to report to the Intourist office because they didn't want Foreigners mixing with locals.  I had to load my own bags on the plane some times.  Little English was spoken.  Legally you couldn't just go and buy a train ticket.  You had to get it through Intourist at inflated prices.  Of course there were also few or no local agencies to hold your hand and arrange introductions as well.

Just think for a second how hard it would be to set up a meeting if the response time between contact was 5 weeks.  

[groovlstk]

So basically the good old days were when a significant portion of the populations of Russia and Ukraine were literally starving, thereby sparing opportunistic vultures from Western countries the indignity of meeting pro daters and scammers because so many women were desperate enough to marry just about any guy w/a blue passport? So terribly sad!

Thank God things have changed, and I can only hope that such arrogant and narcissistic men were taken for a ride a few times before returning to their sad and solitary lives.

[Gator]

The RW are devoid of any moral or ethical dilemmas about it. Their upbringing teaches them that there is nothing unethical in life. You do whatever you have to do to survive and trust no one.

Skeptical, yes.  Survivors, yes.  Unethical, NO.

Ambach, if you think all RW are unethical, I fear that you have been chasing the wrong women (or brought out their worse  ).

[Misha]

One option you have that you did not mention CC, the Latin women option. From what I have read, much easier, less scammers and prodaters. The women are different though, less intelligent. And few speak any English.

Sorry, even though I am married to a RW, I still have to say that it is nonsensical to say that RW are more intelligent than Latin women. All populations have pretty much the same levels of intelligence and stupidity. Levels of education differ, but that is something else.

[Faux Pas]

I could have married any of the three women I got to know, they were all ready and willing and eager, but I chose not to.


The RW are devoid of any moral or ethical dilemmas about it. Their upbringing teaches them that there is nothing unethical in life. You do whatever you have to do to survive and trust no one.

Also I have noted, almost all the RW are looking for a " good life "; what that good life means is different, if she does not get it, she will " upgrade "; league or no league.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and state with a large degree of certainty, the next 3 ladies you court won't be married to you either.

[ambach123]

Faux Pas, what is that got to do with you?

Did somebody ask you for your opinion, or you got nothing to do?

[GoodOlBoy]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and state with a large degree of certainty, the next 3 ladies you court won't be married to you either.

Is "court" the word they use now to describe what Ambach is doing in the FSU? 


GOB

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas, what is that got to do with you?

Did somebody ask you for your opinion, or you got nothing to do?

When you post you are subject to replies and opinion. When you post tripe you should very well expect it. 

[ambach123]

I expect replies, but not from you.

I understand it is free for all, but it is not rocket science for someone to get it that his opinion is not welcomed.

[Faux Pas]

I expect replies, but not from you.

I understand it is free for all, but it is not rocket science for someone to get it that his opinion is not welcomed.

I don't recall asking you. That might imply I actually care, which I don't

[Taz]

It is obvious many of you don't like Ambach. Can we live the personal hatred out of this. We should welcome all viewpoints. Sometimes the extremes on both sides are interesting to watch.

While I don't agree with the path Ambach may take, it is HIS choice. Many people can/will learn from his experiences if he reports them accurately. I have had the opportunity to speak with him on the phone. He doesn't come across the same way when he speaks as he does here. There is some sort of disconnect between what he types and what he says.

I could hazard a guess he does it just to rile some of you up. I think he is going about this quest in the wrong ways in many areas. I do understand his logic even if it is somewhat flawed from my viewpoint but there is a logical thought pattern to it. Unfortunately I believe it is based on some flawed misconceptions. We can often learn more from the people that do it wrong as those that do it right. Then again even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time. So whether he succeeds or fails, may not have a lot ultimately to do with his approach. He may just get luck OR unlucky. I do think he should go about things in a different way but it is his life, his money and his choices. I do hope that he doesn't harm the woman in any way or puts them in a bad situation because of his actions. Just for the record I don't know him in real life. I've spoken with him a few times on the phone. Aside from that I have no other contact with him.

I hope this thread will sort of stay on track as it can be useful for a lot of newbies to understand what has changed over the years. Women are less desperate now than then but in some ways the financial crisis is definitely taking a toll. As JD would lament, he thought it was easier before. I like it better now. The women that will be with me will be with me because she WANTS ME! She is not trying to flee a terrible economic situation. She will be an immigrant for love... not financial or economic reasons! I have to be better to attract a good woman. I am not afraid of a little competition. In the end we both win!

[Blues Fairy]

The couple is lucky if they have love. RW may have other reasons stay, like if the couple has a child, or she can't survive on her own financially. If none of these things exist, it would be incredibly naive, for any RW, I repeat, any RW to stick around. Does not matter who she is.

Excuse me, do American Women have something else except love, children, financial ties etc. to bind them to marriage, of which RW do not know?  Something highly moral and totally above all the normal things that keep women married to their husbands?

[Faux Pas]

Taz...I am only speaking for myself and I state emphatically, I do not hate ambach. I have no feeling for ambach neither positive or negative. On his first trip report I distinctly remember I was one of a few that defended him and his early methods as "his choice". He is welcome to do just as he pleases and it is no sweat off my brow. I seriously could care less.

However, he does seem to repeatedly make claims he obviously knows nothing about. His latest in my view, is questioning the morals of all RW. Forget the absurdity of his claim for those who know the difference but newbies who read it may actually think he has a modicum of validity, when he has squat. I see it as important that newbies do see a different POV. IMO it is important that newbies know the moral fiber in FSUW is no different than women anywhere else in the world.  He has taken 3 vacations with RW, what can he possibly know about the morals of all RW? He amounts to nothing more than a sex tourist. I've always respected you and your viewpoint as a knowledgeable member but, I question how you can defend ambach here and this behavior.

[Taz]

I am not defending Amabach in any way. I said I think he is going about many things in the wrong way. I think the more he writes, the less seriously many people will consider him. Sadly he is not the only one who thinks the way he does on some of these topics.

So often I see writing about RW in such high revere that you'd think they are the incarnation of the second coming... OTOH my personal experience shows me that many RW are some of the most mercenary women I've ever met. With respect to moral, some of the best women AND worst I've ever met are RW.

I have been debating posting about an experience that would fully illustrate my point. I'd rather not go into details about this at this time and possibly never. The main takeaway is I encountered 2 of the worst RW of my lifetime all within the last year or so while at the same time I encountered probably the best I've ever met too. If I had met one of these 2 bad RW a long time ago instead of recently, I am not sure I would have ever considered going back.

I think by the wrong choices he makes, he keeps meeting the wrong kind of women which gives him a wrong impression. RW are definitely not all angels. I can honestly say a PO'd RW is one of the worst women I've ever had to deal with in my life. Anywhere here we are dicussing Ambach again instead of more important points. I never condoned is behavior. I just support his right to say it to the extent forum rules permit. The same way I think about all people here. I may not agree with your viewpoint but I'll support your right to say it. If people would attack him less it would be better, just ignore him or succinctly counter his points. Between his approach and mine, I'll take mine any day.

I think it important to not get involved in tit for tat arguments. That is what so often happens once Ambach is involved and the folks who don't obviously like him want to attack him. I'd prefer to counter the fallacy of his arguments when he is wrong rather than "attack" him. I can respectfully disagree with most folks here. I've tried to reason as success in some areas of your personal/professional life will translate into success in the pursuit of RW. Too self-assured is a recipe for disaster in this pursuit and if you try and protect yourself too much with pre-nups, few women will want to enter into a marriage where she is not viewed as an equal in the marriage...

[Turboguy]

Well said Taz.  I agree with you totally.  It is always a shame to see a good thread go to heck.  I can't see what saying the same thing about someone over and over everytime someone they don't like makes a post accomplishes anything good. 

[Simoni]

Sorry, even though I am married to a RW, I still have to say that it is nonsensical to say that RW are more intelligent than Latin women. All populations have pretty much the same levels of intelligence and stupidity. Levels of education differ, but that is something else.

Excellent post, Misha.

[Faux Pas]

I am not defending Amabach in any way. I said I think he is going about many things in the wrong way. I think the more he writes, the less seriously many people will consider him. Sadly he is not the only one who thinks the way he does on some of these topics.

So often I see writing about RW in such high revere that you'd think they are the incarnation of the second coming... OTOH my personal experience shows me that many RW are some of the most mercenary women I've ever met. With respect to moral, some of the best women AND worst I've ever met are RW.

I have been debating posting about an experience that would fully illustrate my point. I'd rather not go into details about this at this time and possibly never. The main takeaway is I encountered 2 of the worst RW of my lifetime all within the last year or so while at the same time I encountered probably the best I've ever met too. If I had met one of these 2 bad RW a long time ago instead of recently, I am not sure I would have ever considered going back.

I think by the wrong choices he makes, he keeps meeting the wrong kind of women which gives him a wrong impression. RW are definitely not all angels. I can honestly say a PO'd RW is one of the worst women I've ever had to deal with in my life. Anywhere here we are dicussing Ambach again instead of more important points. I never condoned is behavior. I just support his right to say it to the extent forum rules permit. The same way I think about all people here. I may not agree with your viewpoint but I'll support your right to say it. If people would attack him less it would be better, just ignore him or succinctly counter his points. Between his approach and mine, I'll take mine any day.

I think it important to not get involved in tit for tat arguments. That is what so often happens once Ambach is involved and the folks who don't obviously like him want to attack him. I'd prefer to counter the fallacy of his arguments when he is wrong rather than "attack" him. I can respectfully disagree with most folks here. I've tried to reason as success in some areas of your personal/professional life will translate into success in the pursuit of RW. Too self-assured is a recipe for disaster in this pursuit and if you try and protect yourself too much with pre-nups, few women will want to enter into a marriage where she is not viewed as an equal in the marriage...

I understand that Taz and agree with it. However, when he or others make such outrageous statements as "The RW are devoid of any moral or ethical dilemmas about it. Their upbringing teaches them that there is nothing unethical in life" and it goes unchecked, others can be inclined to believe it.

I will be the very last one to try and change his or any others opinion. I'm relatively sure he believes its true. But as you pointed out, look at the women he's vacationed with. But when he voices it openly in the forum, opposing POV should also be stated IMO, to give (specifically newbies) a fighting chance. Not to mention he is also blatantly insulting some of the RW members here, which most all strike me as fine women.

I should have kept my predictions to myself as I usually do but, when he uses his dark history to illustrate his point, I think he invited that.

[Taz]

I have never said to let inaccurate information go unchecked. I have always tried to counterbalance that as much as my time and inclination permit. IRL I have an active work schedule and try to help out a bunch of friends that are interested in RW and help out disadvantaged kids. Should there be any free time left over I then try to help out here a bit and on some other forums WHILE not killing off my own relationships. 

In bad times you are more likely to encounter the "bad". Since times are bad there, there are more desperate women coming out so to speak. Since the industry has matured, so have the scammer's techniques. It can be much harder to spot a bad woman than it was years ago. Their cons are more sophisticated and have evolved with time. I can understand (though I don't totally agree with) Ambach's viewpoint. When times are rough even the morally upright folks tend to play a bit with the rules. It isn't as though Russians were the most orderly and honest society to begin with. They tended to game the system more than most cultures I've been exposed to. To the extreme Ambach alludes to? No, but definitely in the top tier.

I can't tell you how many of my Russian friends told me to never trust other Russians. They trust Russians outside of Russia even less than Russians within. I learned a long time ago to tell people there very little about my life, background, work, etc. except on an absolutely minimal level and only as needed or as the relationship develops. This is even more important now than before.

So while it is different than before, I think it is better. I personally can still attract the same class of woman as before if not better yet at the same time I know she is more serious about being with me rather than a ticket out of terrible situation. Unfortunately in the US, IMBRA has made it much easier to get shafted by an unscrupulous RW. I have seriously thought about bailing on the US and living overseas so I don't have to deal with that stupid idea and poorly contrived law. It opens up too many holes for abuse of the USC!