How fat is too fat?

[Daveman]

...


I just can't, even in my most psychotic dreams, imagine myself in a situation with a partner that big.  Plump and cuddly is cool by me..   but that's nearing that Crane Stage I mentioned earlier.  I really just can't imagine... I'll wear the shallow label proudly from this point forward.

You fool! Don't you realize...

That would be one HELLACIOUSLY large tub of Borsht!  (Smetana sense is tingling...)

[JR]

Daveman, "You Must SUFFER!"

[Daveman]

Daveman, "You Must SUFFER!"

HAHA! Lord I apologize...

I wonder how our Prolific Profiler of Passionate Profundity is doing these days... JR, you should drop her a line and ask how many notches she's carved into the VooDoo doll lately..  :evil:

[JR]

Ah Dave, I've been drinking heavily in an attempt to forget her

[Taz]

To be honest, I think the question was a dumb one to begin with as it has little bearing on real loving realtionships and I believe it is only there to make Taz feel better about himself.

I don't need to feel better about myself. I am quite content the way I am. Every reasonable person realizes things don't happen in a vacuum. Physical attraction is an important part of many male/female relationship. It it wasn't why do people put their photographs with their profiles? Where you not attracted to your woman to some extent of her appearance?

The additional questions were just follow-up questions, not the main question. Some people did not understand this. I rather liken that many of the people that didn't want to respond are similar to the folks that go to church and claim they are without sin.

Based on the current results of this poll, it shows that about 80% of the people would feel less attracted PHYSICALLY to their partner if they gained weight. No where did I ever suggest they should leave their partner or love them less. Nor did I ever say I would leave my wife because she became fat. I love how many of you are incapable of reading things I clearly posted and infer something totally different. You obviously missed the parts about the adverse health effects it had on my ex. Her standard reply was "I still look good" no matter how many pounds she gained or what health effects it might have.

Unlike many people I've met, I am more concerned with being healthy than how I look. For example I exercise seriously and frequently to have lost weight, not because I want to look good but because I want to be healthy. Looking good is a side benefit but not my primary reason. They way I look at it, is we must be reasonably attractive to gain the attention of potential partners. If not, how are they ever going to know what kind of "soul" is inside. Being in good shape (i.e. not FAT) does improve intimacy. When intimacy starts to decline, quite often the relationship goes with it.

No where did I say I would love my partner less, if she became fat. At some point I am physically less interested in her. Obesity is something that can generally be prevented. Why wouldn't I encourage my partner not to become fat if it is almost totally preventable? Additionally it is also well known that intimacy often improves the longer couples know each and continues to improve up to about the 4 year mark according to a recent study. So hypothetically your "intimacy" could improve at a faster rate due to that than a possible decline in other areas that might impact many people. I know there are a few saints here and I'll be sure to come to the church when you are canonized! However the vast majority of people say how obese their partner is does have an effect on their physical desirability.

It reminds me of the classic argument. A woman was once asked if you she was a prostitute by a man. She slapped his face and said of course not. He asked if she would you sleep with him for $10,000. She said no. He asked if she would you sleep with him for $100,000. She said no but thought about it a bit longer as she had been unemployed for several months. He asked if she would you sleep with him for $10,000,000. She thought about it and finally said yes. He said, we've now determined you are a prostitute and only have to agree on the final price. The same is true of obesity I suspect. At some point there comes a weight that is the pound that breaks the camel's back so to speak.

Again the original question was in the context of something that was not related to an illness but purely lack of restraint (i.e. no desire to exercise or have a proper diet). I quite honestly think women are ever more weight conscious about their own weight more then men are about the woman's weight. If it wasn't so important, then why are they so concerned about it? Why are there so many diet aids targeted just for women? You can go into almost any store and find these but almost nothing targeted just for men to lose weight. Why is this? It is probably because whether you like it or not, society puts a premium on physical beauty and obesity is a major consideration in this.

It all comes back to men's and women's expectations about marriage. I am sure you've all heard the following:

Women marry men expecting to change them...
Men marry women expecting them to never change...

Women often look at men as "fixer-uppers". They can mold us into what they want. Sort of like the guy who buys a new Harley as starting point then customizes it the way HE wants. They often marrying us thinking they can make us "better", that is better in their own image of better.
I'd bet most men are hoping that change doesn't come to not only their woman's personality but also to the quality/quantity of intimacy as well as physical beauty.

So for many women it is a shock when they can't "change" their men how they expected and to men when their women "changed". It all comes down to managing expectations. Would a woman marry a man if he said he would never ever change? Would a man marry a woman if she said she would gain 100 lbs in 10 years? Maybe that would be sort of like the truth in lending disclosures you have to sign when getting a mortgage when for a house. Maybe it could be added to the IMBRA... 

[OlgaH]

Women marry men expecting to change them...

If I want to change a man it means there are things about him I don't like... Why should I marry him if I don't like?   

[Taz]

Obviously you have found the PERFECT man then. There is absolutely nothing about him that can be improved apparently. Good for you!

Most women aren't so lucky. They settle for men that are "good enough", yet still have defects or things they don't like about them. If a man was perfect, how could you leave your "mark" on him. So many women seem to like to do this.

Why do the Russians have a saying that the man is the head of the family and the woman is the neck? Then the other part of that is so that the woman can "control" the head and where it looks. If there is nothing about the man you don't like, then I doubt that saying would have developed the way it has over time.

Bottom line is everyone has their faults. When we find our ideal partner, they are often willing to overlook many of their faults/issues/problems and quite often help us to grow and become better people. I don't think it is mutually exclusive to love someone but not like everything about them. So while I won't go so far as to say love is blind, it can often be quite myopic...

[Misha]

So while I won't go so far as to say love is blind, it can often be quite myopic...

There is another explanation: what one may see as a fault, will be seen as a blessing by another.

[OlgaH]

Obviously you have found the PERFECT man then. There is absolutely nothing about him that can be improved apparently. Good for you!

Nobody is perfect.     I'm who I'm, my husband has his own personality traits and I love him for what he is.

Most women aren't so lucky. They settle for men that are "good enough", yet still have defects or things they don't like about them. If a man was perfect, how could you leave your "mark" on him. So many women seem to like to do this.

Talking about many women have you experienced their marks?    

Why do the Russians have a saying that the man is the head of the family and the woman is the neck? Then the other part of that is so that the woman can "control" the head and where it looks. If there is nothing about the man you don't like, then I doubt that saying would have developed the way it has over time.

Nothing about control. It is just a Russian female wisdom: leading your family let your husband to feel as a head   It is normal in Russia when a woman has a leading role in her family and at the same time she doesn't demonstrate her predominance.  

Bottom line is everyone has their faults. So while I won't go so far as to say love is blind, it can often be quite myopic...

Here I agree with Misha.

There is another explanation: what one may see as a fault, will be seen as a blessing by another.

[phantom]

A butterball like my ex-gf, is too fat.  So, I guess Misha is right though, as her now fiance loves her to death.

[Faux Pas]

A butterball like my ex-gf, is too fat.  So, I guess Misha is right though, as her now fiance loves her to death.

There is a butt for every bucket. One just needs to find their bucket, or butt whatever ones case maybe 

[Ade]

Obviously you have found the PERFECT man then. There is absolutely nothing about him that can be improved apparently. Good for you!

Most women aren't so lucky. They settle for men that are "good enough", yet still have defects or things they don't like about them. If a man was perfect, how could you leave your "mark" on him. So many women seem to like to do this.

Why do the Russians have a saying that the man is the head of the family and the woman is the neck? Then the other part of that is so that the woman can "control" the head and where it looks. If there is nothing about the man you don't like, then I doubt that saying would have developed the way it has over time.

Bottom line is everyone has their faults. When we find our ideal partner, they are often willing to overlook many of their faults/issues/problems and quite often help us to grow and become better people. I don't think it is mutually exclusive to love someone but not like everything about them. So while I won't go so far as to say love is blind, it can often be quite myopic...

Taz,

it's not about "perfection" - if you really fall in love with someone you fall for the person as a whole, faults and all. It's about acceptance and loving the person for all their quirks and faults not in spite of them.

[phantom]

Wow, I'm really self centered and shallow.  I look at the picture first, then maybe read the description.

[Ade]

Wow, I'm really self centered and shallow.  I look at the picture first, then maybe read the description.

No, that's natural. No one here is saying that how a person looks doesn't play a big part in the initial attraction; but looks alone will not sustain a long term relationship.

[Aloe]

athletic body is hot, fat is bad and unhealthy, what else is there to say and no i wont cheat if he gets fat, just try to get him to go to the gym

[ladyR]

I want to say thank you to topicstarter. It seems to me that I now I know why my relationship with AM broke down. It's simple - I started to search keeping in mind persons like Gator, Sculpto and SeriouslyJaded. But unfortunately I met a person very similar to Taz. And also unfortunately to me I was "right" for him, regarding different "features". The question was that he didn't see real "me" at all. And my intension to give him love and support was just a nice "bonus" for him, like the second pair of shoes on sale

I think that I can't judge if my former AM and Taz are right or wrong - they just have their own rules of a game. But now I can surely and clearly understand their rules and I can surely and clearly say that I'll never start a relationship with a person like this.

Taz, thank you - it was very straightforward  and clear. For this topic and for the "younger" topic - without irony and sarcasm. Now I can search knowing for sure what I want and what I don't want from an AM.

[Ade]

I want to say thank you to topicstarter. It seems to me that I now I know why my relationship with AM broke down. It's simple - I started to search keeping in mind persons like Gator, Sculpto and SeriouslyJaded. But unfortunately I met a person very similar to Taz. And also unfortunately to me I was "right" for him, regarding different "features". The question was that he didn't see real "me" at all. And my intension to give him love and support was just a nice "bonus" for him, like the second pair of shoes on sale

I think that I can't judge if my former AM and Taz are right or wrong - they just have their own rules of a game. But now I can surely and clearly understand their rules and I can surely and clearly say that I'll never start a relationship with a person like this.

Taz, thank you - it was very straightforward  and clear. For this topic and for the "younger" topic - without irony and sarcasm. Now I can search knowing for sure what I want and what I don't want from an AM.

The question though is whether Taz is quite so straightforward when telling his prospective partner what he wants...

[Taz]

LadyR – I’ll repeat something that obviously you missed (which isn’t impossible considering the size of this thread) that I never said I would (nor did I) leave my ex because of her weight gain. For me she became less physically (the key here is PHYSICALLY) attractive to me when she was about 30-40% over the weight she was when we married. I was still EMOTIONALLY attracted to her but I could feel my interest in her from a physically perspective diminish.

I guess some of you don’t understand the concept of respect and self-respect.  If she didn’t respect herself enough to take care of her health, how is anyone else going to respect her? Same goes for someone who is an alcoholic? LadyR – at what point is the amount a man drinks going to affect your desire for that man? What about using narcotics? You can use the same logic here.

I bet most of you would be lying if you said physical appearance has NO effect on your desirability for your partner.  Something had to bring you together and for the vast majority of men, there is a marked physical component of the initial attraction phase and it is there for women even if possibly not to the same degree as men.  If not, why are there photos with profiles? Because physical attraction IS important to almost all people. It helps us choose a mate because HEALTHY people are general more attractive. To ensure the success of MANKIND it is important that healthy people mate with other healthy people to give the greatest chance of success to their offspring. That is why women look for men that have at least adequate income or higher, to provide for her and her children. It is simply the way life works in general.

On a side note, I think it is total BS to have to write qualifications about things so people understand that we aren’t talking about absolutes. God knows some troll will point out that there is ONE person out of 1,000,000 million that doesn’t apply to. If you aren’t smart enough to understand that, then obviously you have bigger issues to worry about. So when I say MOST it doesn’t MEN ALL! Even Lily turned my words in another thread and she is generally one of the more reasonable RW I’ve seen posting here. To every statement that is generally true, there is usually an exception somewhere.
As for the age thread, I didn’t publish the study. I just posted it for the education of others here. I have never actively sought out a much younger women when dating. I typically haven’t dated RW any younger than the AW I’ve typically dated. In fact, my ex RW was substantially older than my first wife. Compared to most AM, I was seeking a woman much closer to my age than they were.
Ultimately you don’t KNOW ME. You know what I write. I tend to play devil’s advocate. I don’t mind helping other folks who I communicate with off-list communicate some of their thoughts. I know many people that used to participate in this board but get tired of being attacked if they don’t cow-tow to certain RW. I have the same level of respect for all women, RW or otherwise. I am not going to accord them any special privileges or consideration on this board than I would any other women. I have met far RW in life than are here on the boards. I know what my experience has shown me. It has shown me that many Russians have an elitist attitude vs. other Russians and that often shows up here as well. Women/men from the bigger cities often look down on the Russian or Ukrainians from the smaller cities. They think they are basically hicks or country bumpkins.  If you listen to Lily, you might think all RW have a ton of disposable income. Not true, maybe women in Moscow have a lot more than women in Tomsk but you would get the incorrect impression.
So don’t be fooled into thinking that what the RW here have to say apply to ALL RW. You need to filter it through your own experience and what seems to make sense. If a woman is from a large town like Moscow, don’t assume all, or any, of what she says applies to a woman in Kherson for example. A lot of Russians are ignorant about their own country just like many Americans are.

Take the time and do you own independent research. Don’t take whatever the RW here say or what any other poster here says (including me) as the gospel and the final word. Use it to help guide your own path. It is nothing more than tool to help you make your own decisions. I have spent more than a small portion of my life in the FSU. I am not going to sugar coat it. I’ve been in some pretty bad situations there and had some of the most amazing times of my life. I was there before perestroika and after.  I was there during the height of the cold war and after.

So while you may not agree with me, I urge you to carefully consider what I post. I am not speaking through my rectum. I highly doubt there are many men on this board with my level of proficiency with the language, time in the trenches and spanning the number of years I’ve been there let alone the sheer number of cities I visited and people I’ve met. Not saying there isn’t someone but I’d likely put myself in the top 1-2%. While I don’t live there now, I typically spend about 2 months or more each year there.

I am not afraid to say things that are controversial. Many men shy away from conflict or standing their ground. If you do this RW will run right over you. Once a RW loses respect for you, your relationship is pretty much either on life support or over. She will ONLY be with a man she doesn’t respect if she has no other options. I am not going to qualify this as hopefully you can understand that there might be one exception again … somewhere. It truly becomes tedious to constantly say that.

It shouldn’t come as a shock to RW that most men like attractive women. Why else would the RW dress nicely and stay in good shape. Why would they you might ask? One simple reason most likely, COMPETITION! It is a tough market there for women. They have to compete against other attractive women. If they don’t, they’ll never find a mate. So why should it be a surprise to LadyR that AM want an attractive woman? I don’t need in incredibly slender woman to be attracted to her. I like slender all the way up to “plump”.  I just don’t like obese women. My range of women that I find attractive is far wider than most men. I don’t really care if they are blonde, redheads, black hair, etc. While I may have a preference, it is just that – a PREFERENCE. Not an absolute must have.  I already listed my absolute criteria that prevents a woman from further consideration such as narcotics for example.

There are several people on this board that no me in person and can easily attest to my character. If you RW are willing to overlook a man because he has a PREFERENCE for not fat women, then maybe you are even shallower than the man who won’t tolerate a woman who gains 5 lbs in weight. Perhaps you aren’t as accepting as you portray yourself to be. To think you can know someone just by what they right on a website would be very myopic indeed.

The woman I am currently involved very honestly said that she wouldn’t have considered me at my previous higher weight. She was quite honest about it. I showed her many pictures of my before and during my weight loss. For her she thought I was still physically attractive based on my photos up to the point I was about 25% above my current weight. The interesting part is that was about the point where I started to feel good about myself again. Obviously some of you are blind to what role weight play in self-esteem.

Not one of you pundits here ever made the connection with how someone feels about their weight is directly portrayed in how they carry themselves. I waited for a long time post about this hoping someone else would as people here like to kill the messenger rather than listen to the message. Haven’t any of you ever considered that one a person becomes fatter that often they THEMSELVES don’t feel as desirable. As a result they are not as likely to give off the signals that they are sexy and desirable. As a result you don’t have that FEELING when around them. I was sure all of your armchair psychologists would have thought about that but apparently many of you were too busy attacking other things rather than looking at the root cause.

I dated a rather plump woman and she was very sexy.  She actually felt good about herself. She wasn’t fat but she exuded sexiness and allure. She was maybe about 15% over her ideal weight but she was still sexy. Unfortunately many people don’t feel as sexy when they are very obese and as a result they don’t send those signals to their partners. I know I didn’t feel near as desirable. My 54” chest was almost dwarfed by my waist. Now my waist is 34” and my chest 56” and I feel pretty good about myself. As a result I PROJECT myself better. I have more confidence and self-esteem. I am then more attractive to other women because of this. They pick up on it. I am still pretty much the same person inside but my physical appearance has an effect in a psychological way.

Not one of you ever mentioned that maybe the woman/man didn’t feel as sexy when fat and could be projecting/giving off signals that they themselves thought they were less desirable. It is a well known fact that most women like confident men.

SJ - yes, I have always communicated my preferences to the women I have dated. I have listened to what theirs are as well. I am VERY straightforward. As some of you have obviously missed though I've repeated it ad nauseum, weight IS NOT my #1 priority! Do you get it yet? Anything I've written here would not be news to any woman I've dated. We've had open discussions about all manner of topics. Excess weight has serious health implications and we always have discussed health related issues such as any incidence of STD's, serious medical conditions, diet and exercise. My current partner and I didn't have any intimate relations without blood tests showing if we were free of disease or not? How many of you in your ivory towers have done that? Perhaps I am one of the few "shallow" men who have done that? Not just assuming you are free from disease but actually having the tests done BEFORE having sex with that person. That will be my next thread I start. It is on my list. It will be a poll about did you have a AIDS/STD test before making love to your partner for the first time. I wonder how many saints we will have there...

[ladyR]

Taz, actually I wasn't speaking about weight gain/age/self-respect etc. at all..
Last month I was trying to find an answer "why" I felt so bad with so good, clever and "kind" person I was wating K-1 with. Mentality? Race? Language problems? I don't love him? He doesn't love me?

But with your thoughts and your threads I think that I've found this answer. We are just from different planets. At mine words "my partner" and "too fat" just never can be written in the same sentence. And it is not about weight at all, really.

[Aloe]

women dont dress up to get a mate; women dress up to get attention, they may use that attention to get a mate, or they just might enjoy the attention without any agenda

[Taz]

LadyR- could you say the word TOO DRUNK or too many drugs in a sentence with the words your partner? I understand what you are saying in principal but I have known many RW who left their partner because he was an alcoholic (too drunk). Most people will tolerate only so much of one thing and then it is TOO MUCH. Too much drinking, too much cheating, too ...

Aloe - I don't agree with you. If no other women dressed up, then they wouldn't have to dress up either. They would get the attention they want. It is a matter of competition whether you like it or not. It is how it works in the animal kingdom and we are stil animals. In the animal kingdom though it is normal the male with the mane or the bright colored plumage or the big horns. Without ATTRACTION you are very unlikely to find a mate. You want to be noticed by the opposite sex and if you aren't dressing up, the man will look at other women before looking at you. It is quite simple.

Dressing up = increased probability of attention from the opposite sex (or same if homosexual) = increased chances of finding a mate

The manner in which you dress up is in effect the "bait" you are using. You will adapt your wardrobe (clothing) to go after the kind of man you want to attract. Women do it all the time. They dress in a way that then think most likely to attract the time of man they want/need.

It is just like going fishing or hunting. You use the appropriate type of equipment/bait to get what you want. You don't use birdshot to go dear hunting and you don't use a 9mm pistol to typically go fishing (even though you could) as it would not best tools/bait for the job. I also realize many women dress up to feel good about themselves or around their peers. To a great extent it is to be attractive to the opposite sex. This applies to men as well of course. It works both ways. I want to be healthy and attractive to give me the widest possible options of potential mates. Similarly I worked hard and received a good education and have a good career to better support my family and provide the stability that women and families need.

[CCowboy]

Interesting reading: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/01/obesity.rankings/index.html  Obesity is not just a female problem but affects men and children as well.  It's a problem that gets worse each year.  I just returned from shopping at Costso and I'm amazed at the people who are obviously obese and when you look in their shopping cart, you can see why.  These are not people of poverty who have to eat high caloric foods because of the economy.  These are people who have little regard for their appearance.  If you look at cost verses nutrition, fattening foods are usually much more expensive than healthy foods.  It's simply a choice they make not to be healthy.  I'm not living in a glass house either.  When I graduated from college, I was a buffed 210lbs.  Now 47 years later, I'm 230lbs, not so buffed, and I'm on an eternal diet, but I wouldn't consider myself either fat or obese.  So, if being healthy and maintaining a reasonable weight is important to someone...man or woman...I think it's important that their future partner shares the same attitude.  CC

[Misha]

Interesting reading: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/01/obesity.rankings/index.html  Obesity is not just a female problem but affects men and children as well. 

In the stats that I have seen from the United States, obesity is worse in white males than white females  :evil:

[JR]

In the stats that I have seen from the United States, obesity is worse in white males than white females  :evil:

You may be right but thankfully I don't look at the men Although I am absoultely SICK of looking at obese American women. Why can't we leave some food for the rest of the world?

[Aloe]

Aloe - I don't agree with you. If no other women dressed up, then they wouldn't have to dress up either. They would get the attention they want. It is a matter of competition whether you like it or not. It is how it works in the animal kingdom and we are stil animals. In the animal kingdom though it is normal the male with the mane or the bright colored plumage or the big horns. Without ATTRACTION you are very unlikely to find a mate. You want to be noticed by the opposite sex and if you aren't dressing up, the man will look at other women before looking at you. It is quite simple.

Dressing up = increased probability of attention from the opposite sex (or same if homosexual) = increased chances of finding a mate

The manner in which you dress up is in effect the "bait" you are using. You will adapt your wardrobe (clothing) to go after the kind of man you want to attract. Women do it all the time. They dress in a way that then think most likely to attract the time of man they want/need.

It is just like going fishing or hunting. You use the appropriate type of equipment/bait to get what you want. You don't use birdshot to go dear hunting and you don't use a 9mm pistol to typically go fishing (even though you could) as it would not best tools/bait for the job. I also realize many women dress up to feel good about themselves or around their peers. To a great extent it is to be attractive to the opposite sex. This applies to men as well of course. It works both ways. I want to be healthy and attractive to give me the widest possible options of potential mates. Similarly I worked hard and received a good education and have a good career to better support my family and provide the stability that women and families need.

so you just confirmed what i said, women dress up to get attention;
while getting a mate may be 1 of the reasons they want attention, it is not the only reason; why do you think married women dress up then, they already have a mate.
They may also dress up to get jealousy of other women(co-workers or friends), its quite common, which is also attention.
Or they dress-up to gain some kind of advantage, a guy is more likely to do what a beautiful woman wants him to, it doesnt mean she wants him as a mate; she just wants something from him and dressing up is a way to enhance beauty
or like i said before, they just dress up to get attention just for the sake of attention and nothing more.