Ladies, Do you think of America as the "Land of the Free?"

[Ronnie]

An FSU lady during her first month in America remarked, "There are too many laws in America!"  Having spent a lot of time in the FSU, I could understand her comment.  Certainly laws are necessary in order to have a civil society, but when do these laws cross the line and begin to rob citizens of their freedom?

I would like to hear comments from the ladies on this forum who have recently immigrated to the United States to try and get a sense of the mindset that you bring with you and whether or not it changed after you arrived.

America is right now at a crossroads.  Her leaders in Washington are in the process of throwing the founding principles of our still young nation into the trash bin and replacing them with new socialist ideas.  You have lived under socialism.  Do you welcome this change?  Do you believe that the world would be a better place if America abandoned her influence in the world and divested herself of her wealth?

Today is the 233rd birthday of our nation.  Many Americans think the country is headed in the wrong direction and are holding demonstrations they call "tea parties."  They are calling it that because in December of 1773, a group on colonists living in Boston protested against a threatened tea monopoly by boarding three British ships and tossed the cargo, mainly tea, into Boston Harbor.  This act, set into motion a series of events that culminated in the Revolution and founding of the United States.

Before you comment, please read a speech that written by an ordinary American, John Manning, to be given at one of today's tea parties:

Fastened upon our ancestors by the despots of faraway lands, the Chains of Tyranny were linked by hereditary bondage, undeserved tribute and indentured servitude. By exhibiting gallant resolve and courage – in some cases against the face of certain death – our Minutemen forefathers gloriously threw off these chains just 233 short years ago.

Much has changed since that time. Yet today, we hear again the rattling and clanking of the Chains of Tyranny. The chains we hear are held not by foreign powers. Dreadfully, it is those among us, many of whom are our elected leaders, who possess the chains and toil endlessly to cast them across our backs. Now heavier and longer, the Chains of Tyranny have been wrought with new links – apathy masked by complacency, socialism fueled by internationalism, cults of undeserved celebrity and a reckless belief in the equality of results.

Moreover, they are now deceptively plated in gold. We have been assured, time and time again, by those who hold the chains that they "know better" and that to embrace their shackles would be "for our own good."

The threatened return of the Chains of Tyranny triggers that transcendent call for us to assemble here today.

Who are we?

We are the Defenders of Liberty!

Our hands reach across generations. We do not perceive the value of each other in abstract terms of race, gender, ethnicity or creed. We do not see ourselves as rich or poor. We spurn "identity politics" as a lazy and inadequate substitute for a guarded vigilance balanced by independent thoughts. For we are all individual citizens of America – black and white, man and woman, Mayflower descendent and newly naturalized – and we must all stand united to protect freedom's priceless but delicate charge!

We detest efforts by the holders of the Chains of Tyranny to corrupt the everyday meaning of things and turn us against one another.

Hope is not faith! Change is not reform! Taxation is not charity! Equality is not opportunity! Servitude is not freedom!

To this end, we reject the following confused ideas tinkered in minds that reason abandoned and faith no longer moderates: Inconvenient truths, audacities of hope, carbon footprints, unearned incomes and government-sponsored "recoveries."

We believe there is but one market – the free market – that, if allowed to run unfettered in a free society, can provide all men and women the opportunity to use the results of their work to better themselves, their families and their communities.

We know that public bailouts, no matter the intention, foster dependence, which in turn fornicates with servitude and begets slavery. For this reason alone, we would rather walk than drive a car made by any government! We would rather be paupers than be made rich by "public" money! We would rather drop dead than be cared for by Nurse Fed!

We further reject the guise of "universal health care" and recognize this abhorrent creature for what it is: a brazen attempt to seize illegally our wealth, control how we care for our mortal bodies, limit our access to the best medicines, stifle scientific progress and medical innovation, and transform our doctor's offices and hospitals into DMV-style waiting rooms.

The Defenders of Liberty will never stand by and ignore the attempts of others to cast off their own chains of servitude. We will not strike accords or offer bribes to dictators! We would rather cut off our hands before extending them to the harbingers of evil!

Speaking of evil, we know only those true rights: those that are unalienable and endowed by our Creator. We reject penumbral "rights" as false and dangerous ideas contrived in judicial cauldrons established only to massacre those who permeate the bookends of life.

And finally, we know that our sovereignty shall forever reside in We the People. For this we reassert that any government that limits the God-given right of her citizens to defend themselves automatically ceases to be a government – for such action shall void the social contract from which it was forged.

We are the True Patriots, left to guard perpetually that shining city upon a hill. We know of her, we dream of her, and yes, throughout history she has had a name: AMERICA! Let us rally around her, for we are the Defenders of Liberty! Let us will hoist our flags, wave our banners and bear our arms! Let us be vigilant and fight any attempt to ravage her! For, as the envious eyes of the world are still cast upon us, we vow not to be the last to feel the sweet effervescence of her freedom!

God bless America!

Ladies, most of you have children and will likely have grandchildren.  What kind of nation do you want them to live in; one like the America you know or one like that which you left?

[Lily]

I'd like to live in a country where law and order prevail, and where a well informed and educated person could make the both work for her ot him.

[Blues Fairy]

An FSU lady during her first month in America remarked, "There are too many laws in America!" Certainly laws are necessary in order to have a civil society, but when do these laws cross the line and begin to rob citizens of their freedom?
You have lived under socialism.  Do you welcome this change?  Do you believe that the world would be a better place if America abandoned her influence in the world and divested herself of her wealth?

Having lived in chaos I welcome the rule of law; but there are laws and laws.  What the current lawmakers are doing smacks of New Deal-like fascism/statism and spells ruin for USA's prosperity in the long run.  No, I do not welcome this change and no, I don't want to see America fall prey to the left-wing populist dictators while giving away jobs to China and "redistributing" its wealth around the world.  But I think you knew my answer beforehand, Ronnie.

[Ronnie]

If you boil the debate down to it's basic elements, it seems that what is left at the core is this: 

One school of thought says that human beings must be free to make their own choices even if those choices brings about failures.  The idea is that only through experiencing failures brought on by our own poor choices, can one learn to make better choices and eventually succeed.

The other school, socialism, says that no one should be allowed to fail and if they do the responsibility for that failure lies with the community or government.  Since the community or government then will provide this protection, it demands more from the individual and one of those demands is that many decisions about our individual lives be placed in the hands of the government.

America was founded upon the first school and it has served her well.
Thomas Paine, a man who wrote the pamphlet, Common Sense, that inspired the American Revolution, wrote, "That government is best, which governs least."

I believe the chaos about which Blues Fairy writes, exists for one simple reason.  For generations, the Russian people have been told what to do, when to do it and how to do it.  Few decisions were left up to the individual.  It's a lot like what we hear from the women who were educated in Catholic schools or strict religious communities.  When finally the chains are removed, the individual runs wild for awhile, unable to think or make for himself, those decisions that those who have been raised in freer societies routinely make, and often correctly.

And so the question now is before you and all of us; to which school shall we subscribe?

[Boethius]

I believe the chaos about which Blues Fairy writes, exists for one simple reason.  For generations, the Russian people have been told what to do, when to do it and how to do it.  Few decisions were left up to the individual.  It's a lot like what we hear from the women who were educated in Catholic schools or strict religious communities.  When finally the chains are removed, the individual runs wild for awhile, unable to think or make for himself, those decisions that those who have been raised in freer societies routinely make, and often correctly.

I disagree.  People were governed by fear.  It is not that they couldn't think.  It is that there were real consequences to doing so.

I think you underestimate the war that was occurring in the 1990's between the communists, who for quite some time, controlled government, and those who wanted to reform the system.  Add to that the badly planned economic shock therapy imposed on the people, lack of taxation to maintain basic levels of services, and yes, the lack of regulation in allowing the wholesale theft of the country, and what can one expect?

[Ronnie]

I disagree.  People were governed by fear.  It is not that they couldn't think.  It is that there were real consequences to doing so.

There is a great difference between being able to think and being able to make good decisions.  Making good decisions requires practice.  No one is born with the ability.  The chaos you describe in the 90's is evidence that where freedom to decide has been long stifled, then suddenly released, poor decisions inevitably result.

My fear is that our younger generation, so indoctrinated by socialist ideology in our schools, will elect to give socialism a try and despite it's abysmal failure everywhere else, they will think it can work in the United States.  That is my fear.

My belief and hope is that they will awake from their stupor in time to see the wolf in sheeps' clothing and boot him out the door.

America has drifted very far from the vision of her founding fathers.  Those were learned and wise men.  They disagreed and battled over their ideas and eventually the constitution was drafted in a way that only the best ideas for the longevity of the new nation were incorporated.   We don't have such wise and learned men in our midst anymore.  They had a purpose in life and they fulfilled it.  Our purpose is to not let the sorry excuses for leaders we have today, continue to shred the constitution they swore to protect.

[Shadow]

Ronnie I hardly think that you will get many followers for the political parties by this rant directed againt the current political power in your country.

There is a distinct difference in the chains that were removed 233 years ago and the ones that are carried now.
The current chains have been made by the people themselves, part for part.
To blame the current adminstration for the whole chain is not correct, because the foundations were laid under the many administrations before.

[Blues Fairy]

To blame the current adminstration for the whole chain is not correct, because the foundations were laid under the many administrations before.

To be exact, under Wilson and FDR.  But then, in the 1920s and 1930s, America was ruled by the Progressives who regarded Soviet Russia and even Fascist Italy as brilliant examples of a working new order, and deplored the "roaring 20s" during which America has given up the socialist reformation.  Obviously many things have become apparent since those times about both socialism and fascism.  Yet there's still this romantic notion that under the right leader and in the right country, those principles will work miraculously and a perfect society will be created. 

[Simoni]

Yuk.

Another political strand.

[Boethius]

There is a great difference between being able to think and being able to make good decisions.  Making good decisions requires practice.  No one is born with the ability.  The chaos you describe in the 90's is evidence that where freedom to decide has been long stifled, then suddenly released, poor decisions inevitably result.

I think that is condascending.  There are lots of people who have lived in totalitarian countries who are perfectly capable of making good decisions.

The chaos in the 1990's was partially imposed by the West, which pushed for economic reform.  The balance was the result of political infighting.  When those who have lost their sweet positions retain power, and do everything they can to stifle the movement of society in a direction which would see them lose their powers, can anything but chaos be expected?

[Ronnie]

Ronnie I hardly think that you will get many followers for the political parties by this rant directed againt the current political power in your country.

There is a distinct difference in the chains that were removed 233 years ago and the ones that are carried now.
The current chains have been made by the people themselves, part for part.
To blame the current adminstration for the whole chain is not correct, because the foundations were laid under the many administrations before.

Blues Fairy beat me to the answer.  I never ever said this happened overnight.  I said,

America has drifted very far from the vision of her founding fathers.  Those were learned and wise men.

Blues fairy correctly pointed to the administration of Woodrow Wilson (whom she will be sorry to acknowledge has been our only president with a PhD  ) as the early beginnings of abandoning the Contstitution.  Wilson pushed passage the Sedition Act making it a crime to speak against the government and people were imprisioned under it, believe it or not.  The atrocious law was repealed  under the next administration by a saner Congress but the wheels were already set in motion to shred the Constitution.  The unconstituional Income tax was instituted.  The Federal Reserve corporation was set up in which Congress abdicated it's Constitutional control (the people's control) over money.

What had been put in first gear by Wilson (and sadly to a degree by TR), FDR shifted into second gear.  Johnson and Carter tried to accelerate the drive toward Socialism until America's greatest president, Ronald Reagan, with a resounding mandate from the American people, threw the brakes on.  

The Bushes and Clinton slowly resumed the course and now Obama, Pelosi, Frank and Reed are driving hard to the finish line.  It will be up to the people once again to stop the madness.  That is true not only on long-time citizens but the new ones as well.  Perhaps the new ones more than anyone since they know better than any, what central government control can do to ruin a society and destroy individual opportunity and freedom.

[Mir]

You have lived under socialism.  Do you welcome this change? 

There is socialism and then there is socialism.
Most countries in Europe have had socialist governments withing an overall capitalist system.
Maybe US can experiment with it now.

Do you believe that the world would be a better place if America abandoned her influence in the world and divested herself of her wealth?

Hmm so do you mean to say that America's wealth is due to its influence in the world?
US was very rich in 1913 and yet had very little influence in the world.

Maybe it is about time Americans start thinking that to retain her wealth US does not need to colonize other countries, perhaps prosperity can be achieved without using imperialism as the conduit?

[Blues Fairy]

Most countries in Europe have had socialist governments withing an overall capitalist system.
Maybe US can experiment with it now.

And how did the European experiment go?

US does not need to colonize other countries

Which countries exactly has the US colonized?

[Sculpto]

And how did the European experiment go?

Which countries exactly has the US colonized?

direct colonization would be everything west of the original 13 colonies that formed the original USA.

The Philipines.  Some would correctly argue Cuba.  Numerous islands around the caribe and pacific.  Puerto Rico.  Ongoing interference in the internal politics of numerous countries.  Iraq.  etc etc etc..

Economic colonialism all around the world.  Coca Cola and McD being the most egregious perpetrators.

[SANDRO43]

Blues fairy correctly pointed to the administration of Woodrow Wilson (whom she will be sorry to acknowledge has been our only president with a PhD  ) as the early beginnings of abandoning the Contstitution.

Ronnie, do you seriously think that a constitution written in 1787 should be set in granite forever ? Weren't some Amendments made to it over time to reflect social/political changes? There's a debate now here about constitutional reform, and ours was promulgated only in 1947, a little over 60 years ago.

You may argue that there is an attempt under way to alter its spirit or fundamental principles, but of course that is open to individual interpretation, which changes over time, too . INM, you also have a US Supreme Court that's supposed to guard over that - also established by your Constitution, BTW.

[Boethius]

And how did the European experiment go?

"Socialist" Norway has a little more than double the GDP per capita of the U.S.  Denmark, which reveres Plekhanov as the father of modern socialism, has a per capita GDP that is a little more than one third higher than that of the U.S.

[SANDRO43]

And how did the European experiment go?

Not really badly I'd say, all things considered, the idea of free-for-all capitalism fortunately had not yet gained as strong a hold on our Continent as elsewhere, just to cite an example .

BF, the basic difference in perspective is whether to privilege the whole community or the single individual, with all possible local variations of course.

[Sculpto]

right wingers always blah blah their militant so called self determination.. right up until something happens to their situation and then they cry "why didn't someone do something?"  Y'all speak from a position of privilege that is disconnected from how most people live.  Take away your security blankets and your tune will change real fast.  You have no clue how brutal life can be.

[Ronnie]

right wingers always blah blah their militant so called self determination.. right up until something happens to their situation and then they cry "why didn't someone do something?"  Y'all speak from a position of privilege that is disconnected from how most people live.  Take away your security blankets and your tune will change real fast.  You have no clue how brutal life can be.

And you have no idea what you're talking about.  Most conservatives are self-made middle-income people.

direct colonization would be everything west of the original 13 colonies that formed the original USA.

The Philipines.  Some would correctly argue Cuba.  Numerous islands around the caribe and pacific.  Puerto Rico.  Ongoing interference in the internal politics of numerous countries.  Iraq.  etc etc etc..

Economic colonialism all around the world.  Coca Cola and McD being the most egregious perpetrators.

That's really weird, Eric...even for you.

"Socialist" Norway has a little more than double the GDP per capita of the U.S.  Denmark, which reveres Plekhanov as the father of modern socialism, has a per capita GDP that is a little more than one third higher than that of the U.S.

Norway has an upper income tax rate of 45%.  And, they pay a value added tax in everything they buy. I'm told that 50% of the price of a new car is various taxes.  The Norwegian GDP is inflated due to nationized oil and gas industry (no qualms about drilling there - as long as it's the government doing it, eh?).

Sandro,
The Constitution allows for amendments.  It does not allow for congress and the executive to disregard it.  Each takes an oath of office to "preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the United States of America.."

Let's not also fall into the trap of thinking that all human history and governmental experience started in the late 1700s.  The founding fathers were students of history and government systems and drew up a constitution based on what they considered to be natural law and enduring, unalienable rights.  They drew very heavily from "The Law of Nations" by Emmerich de Vattel.

So no, the Constitution is not some mere rough draft to serve only as a starting point.  It was meant to keep the nation from falling into tyranny, whether that tryanny came from a Monarch, Chief Executive, Senate, Council of Judges or the tyranny of the majority.   
So yes, it is set in proverbial stone, difficult to change for very good reason. 

It is the accelerating practice of unlawfully ignoring that extraordinary document that threatens the prosperity, liberty and happiness or our children.

[Sculpto]

And you have no idea what you're talking about.  Most conservatives are self-made middle-income people.

That's really weird, Eric...even for you.

that should be.. radically misinformed supposedly self made with a distorted view of what middle income is.

open a history book Ronnie, preferably one written in any of the places I mentioned.

[Ronnie]

that should be.. radically misinformed supposedly self made with a distorted view of what middle income is.

open a history book Ronnie, preferably one written in any of the places I mentioned.

So you're going to continue down that tired and worn-out anti-US path, eh Eric?  Keep on walking pal..soon you will look around you and find you're one lonely guy.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121403/Special-Report-Ideologically-Moving.aspx

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/Conservatives-Single-Largest-Ideological-Group.aspx

BTW, Gallup isn't exactly Fox News.

[Sculpto]

So you're going to continue down that tired and worn-out anti-US path, eh Eric?  Keep on walking pal..soon you will look around you and find you're one lonely guy.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121403/Special-Report-Ideologically-Moving.aspx

its not an anti anything path Ronnie.. it is simply historical fact.. facts that deniers like you refuse to recognize.  Its the same mentality that keeps Japanese internment out of history books and glosses over the genocide of the native Americans as if it really didn't happen and addresses or even worse twists it around as if to appear somehow heroic or the armgeddon we brought upon Africa in terms of OUR civil war but ignores the ongoing disaster we created that continues to plague our society with its consequences.  You can't pick and choose historical fact.. but you can choose to ignore them and pretend something is great when it is in fact a lie.  Which is why the views you espouse are little better than the rantings of a spoiled child. 

I would really love to see how one of you so called rugged individuals would hold up if you were ever put into a situation where real chaos exists.  I think you especially Ronnie, would be cryin fo yo Mama faster than you could say the word ghetto.

[Faux Pas]

.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeuBB_mOFIA[/youtube]

[Sculpto]

the hypocrisy of those people makes me sick.  Separation of church and state is a basic freedom.  Worship however you want, but do not force me to worship your way.  There are not many things I have a black and white opinion on, but, that is one of them. 

[jdk1963]

There is socialism and then there is socialism.
Most countries in Europe have had socialist governments withing an overall capitalist system.
Maybe US can experiment with it now.

Why?  Because it works so well in Europe?  And they do not have an overall capitalist system.  A myth perpetuated by those who insist on more socialism.

Hmm so do you mean to say that America's wealth is due to its influence in the world?
US was very rich in 1913 and yet had very little influence in the world.

Maybe it is about time Americans start thinking that to retain her wealth US does not need to colonize other countries, perhaps prosperity can be achieved without using imperialism as the conduit?

What colonies would you be speaking of?  In fact there are none.  Another myth.  The US had wealth and influence in 1913 because of the gold standard additionally the US exerted all the influence she cared to via the Monroe Doctrine.