Ladies, Do you think of America as the "Land of the Free?"

[Ronnie]

I just thank god I am not you.

Eric.  You've used this line several times before.  You worry me.  Are you alright pal?  You're really an okay guy.  Woefully misguided, but okay.  Honest.

[Ronnie]

One of the most humorous guys of the 20th century, that's who.

Simoni, I have a sneaking suspicion that Alessandro knows who Will Rogers was as well, if not better than, anyone.  Sandro just likes to correct any and all inaccuracies.  Watch this....

Sandro, tu sei un gran correttore, no? 

Now he will correct me.  I love it!

[Boethius]

Sculpto, this is for you.  I know there's a music thread, but it fits here  

<[youtube=425,350]object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QI4fN4eIGZI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QI4fN4eIGZI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

[SANDRO43]

Community consists of individuals; if you keep privileging the community at the expense of individual rights, you will get a typical dictatorship, eventually.

Hardly born out historically IMO. I don't recall Mussolini, Hitler, and a long host of South American dictators really favouring the community at the expense of the individual, except as electoral ruses promptly discarded after seizing power.

You might want to counter with your FSU, China and Cuba, but here Boethius's point about pre-existing democratic traditions is applicable.

We are facing the danger of a 73 y.o. skirt-chaser lusting for total power here, and he's no Socialist by any long chalk.

[SANDRO43]

Simoni, I have a sneaking suspicion that Alessandro knows who Will Rogers was as well, if not better than, anyone.

Ronnie, I can't be expected to know ALL US lore - I'm not as patriotic as you are - the only Rogers I knew of was Roy, from my childhood days with Viewmaster - I doubt many remember that 3D contraption.

Sandro just likes to correct any and all inaccuracies.

Once an editor, always an editor .

Sandro, tu sei un gran correttore, no?  Now he will correct me.

No need, your Italian sentence is quite alright.

[Ronnie]

Sandro, read up on "soft tyranny".  Dictatorships are often preceded by it.

[acrzybear]

the only Rogers I knew of was Roy, from my childhood days with Viewmaster.

Sandro

That is one and the same. This is why one should not be up past their bedtime posting

[Boethius]

Sandro

That is one and the same.

No, I think Sandro is referring to Roy Rogers.  The quote was from Will Rogers.

[Boethius]

We are facing the danger of a 73 y.o. skirt-chaser lusting for total power here, and he's no Socialist by any long chalk.

HAHAHA.  I just saw this edit.  I've been reading about his scandals, his interesting "appointments", and saw the villa picture (among others) of the former Czech PM (and frankly, in that case, I wish I hadn't!)   

[SANDRO43]

No, I think Sandro is referring to Roy Rogers.

Precisely, and his real name was not Roy Rogers either, but Leonard Franklin Slye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Rogers).

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, read up on "soft tyranny". Dictatorships are often preceded by it.

OK, are you sharpening up your knives for next mid March? Steer clear of anyone named Mark, or Anthony, or both, though .

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X9C55TkUP8[/youtube]

[Simoni]

Don't let yesterday use up too much of today.
Will Rogers

A fool and his money are soon elected.
Will Rogers

A man only learns in two ways, one by reading, and the other by association with smarter people.
Will Rogers

A remark generally hurts in proportion to its truth.
Will Rogers

Advertising is the art of convincing people to spend money they don't have for something they don't need.
Will Rogers

Alexander Hamilton started the U.S. Treasury with nothing, and that was the closest our country has ever been to being even.
Will Rogers

All I know is just what I read in the papers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance.
Will Rogers

America is a nation that conceives many odd inventions for getting somewhere but it can think of nothing to do once it gets there.
Will Rogers

America is becoming so educated that ignorance will be a novelty. I will belong to the select few.
Will Rogers

An economist's guess is liable to be as good as anybody else's.
Will Rogers

An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out.
Will Rogers

An onion can make people cry but there's never been a vegetable that can make people laugh.
Will Rogers

Anything important is never left to the vote of the people. We only get to vote on some man; we never get to vote on what he is to do.
Will Rogers

Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.
Will Rogers

Buy land. They ain't making any more of the stuff.
Will Rogers

Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction.
Will Rogers

[Blues Fairy]

Hardly born out historically IMO. I don't recall Mussolini, Hitler, and a long host of South American dictators really favouring the community at the expense of the individual, except as electoral ruses promptly discarded after seizing power.

Both Mussolini and Hitler started out as tribunes of the little man, the Volk.  Nazism and Fascism were both popular movements, their electoral base was primarily working and lower classes.  Sure, they were very pragmatical in employing whatever slogans got them to power (like our very own leader now), but their initial program was quintessentially socialist and their repeated emphasis on the "common good", "nothing outside the State" etc is hard to miss.  The support of the industrialists and higher society came later, when they saw that it's better to side with the emerging power.  

Our current Dear Leader is only starting out, too; and his populist method is greatly akin to the above two.

[Sculpto]

Both Mussolini and Hitler started out as tribunes of the little man, the Volk.  Nazism and Fascism were both popular movements, their electoral base was primarily working and lower classes.  Sure, they were very pragmatical in employing whatever slogans got them to power (like our very own leader now), but their initial program was quintessentially socialist and their repeated emphasis on the "common good", "nothing outside the State" etc is hard to miss.  The support of the industrialists and higher society came later, when they saw that it's better to side with the emerging power.  

Our current Dear Leader is only starting out, too; and his populist method is greatly akin to the above two.

in the case of Hitler you are grossly wrong.  Hitler never won an election and through the use of the brown shirts/ss terrorized the nation into compliance.  70% of the population voted against Hitler in '33.

I don't know enough about Mussolini to comment.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, this is for you.  I know there's a music thread, but it fits here  

<[youtube=425,350]object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QI4fN4eIGZI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QI4fN4eIGZI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

"I want to be in the minority, I don't need your authority"

You know where they are from don't you? 

[Blues Fairy]

in the case of Hitler you are grossly wrong.  Hitler never won an election and through the use of the brown shirts/ss terrorized the nation into compliance.  70% of the population voted against Hitler in '33.

Are you trying to argue that Hitler imposed himself on the Germans, against their will and vote?
In 1933 the Nazis won 288 seats (out of 647) and their coalition partners, the German Nationalists, won 52 seats. This gave the Nazis and partners a majority of 43 seats over all other parties combined. Hitler had overwhelming majority of votes from the big working-class areas of Germany.  Five years into his office, more than 90% of Germans were "believers in the Führer."  No, he had popular vote allright, all along, and gained more of it as he progressed with his policies.

Dictators come in various forms and feathers, and it would be a mistake to think that America is immune from them by virtue of its electoral system.

[SANDRO43]

Both Mussolini and Hitler started out as tribunes of the little man, the Volk. Nazism and Fascism were both popular movements, their electoral base was primarily working and lower classes... their initial program was quintessentially socialist and their repeated emphasis on the "common good", "nothing outside the State" etc is hard to miss. The support of the industrialists and higher society came later, when they saw that it's better to side with the emerging power.

Not quite true as far as Mussolini is concerned. I don't want to further waylay this thread with details of his political career and views (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini for a more accurate depiction), but you should consider that he acceeded to power with a coup (the March on Rome in 1922), formed a coalition government which in 1923 enacted a new electoral law granting 2/3 of the parliamentary seats to any party obtaining 25%+ of votes (unsurprisingly similar to the law Berlusconi is now pushing forward ).

This law was punctually applied in the elections of April 6, 1924. The "national alliance", consisting of Fascists, most of the old Liberals and others, won 64% of the vote largely by means of violence and voter intimidation. These tactics were especially prevalent in the south.

His concept of "common good" did not quite dovetail with your assumption .

[Boethius]

"I want to be in the minority, I don't need your authority"

You know where they are from don't you? 

Of course 

Are you trying to argue that Hitler imposed himself on the Germans, against their will and vote?  In 1933 the Nazis won 288 seats (out of 647) and their coalition partners, the German Nationalists, won 52 seats. This gave the Nazis and partners a majority of 43 seats over all other parties combined. Hitler had overwhelming majority of votes from the big working-class areas of Germany.  Five years into his office, more than 90% of Germans were "believers in the Führer."  No, he had popular vote allright, all along, and gained more of it as he progressed with his policies.

Sculpto was correct, Hitler never won more than 35% or less of the popular vote.  So you are wrong, Hitler never had the popular vote.  The fact that he needed to govern in a coalition (as did Mussolini) is evidence of this.

What you are missing in this analysis is that both Hitler and Mussolini started dismantling institutions which were impediments to their power.  While the Bush administration did not always follow the spirit and intent of Constitution (based on their interpretations of what was within their executive powers), it is too early to know if that is the case with Obama, though as an expert in constitutional law, he has made it clear he believes in the supremacy of the US Constituiton.  Further, the judiciary is still completely independent in the US.

Nevertheless, if you are truly concerned about this, I suggest you make a big contribution to the ACLU.

[Sculpto]

Dictators come in various forms and feathers, and it would be a mistake to think that America is immune from them by virtue of its electoral system.

This is quite correct.  However, as much as I am anit gun personally, I would never even consider and would be highly against any attempt at constitutional reform of the 2nd amendment.  It is this law that in some way keeps our politicos somewhat honest, or at least prevents them from trying to usurp power Hitler style. 

To achieve a real coup in this country is nearly impossible and would immediately result in civil war.  I give such a scenario less than .001% probability of happening in our lifetimes.

On the other hand.. the erosion of constitutional rights through legal tricks was persistent during the Bush Admin.  I am reminded of one of our members telling us about the dress code in a section of Kansas City, Mo.  How could it even be legal to enforce a dress code in a public space?  Dress code = racial profiling in such a case.

[Sculpto]

  Five years into his office, more than 90% of Germans were "believers in the Fuhrer." 

I thought you said you remember living under a totalitarian system?  Did 90% of the population of the USSR believe in Brezhnev and the Party?  Or, were they intimidated into publically demonstrating this belief while they privately feared for their lives?

[Blues Fairy]

Obama, though as an expert in constitutional law, he has made it clear he believes in the supremacy of the US Constituiton.  Further, the judiciary is still completely independent in the US.

Actually he did say that the Constitution was flawed as it spelled out only negative liberties and did not provide for welfare; and he did lament that the Supreme Court never ventured into redistribution of wealth and other "basic issues", and it's been a tragedy of the civil rights movement.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122515067227674187.html

[Boethius]

From the article -

He also noted that the Court "didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution, at least as it has been interpreted." That is to say, he noted that the U.S. Constitution as written is only a guarantee of negative liberties from government -- and not an entitlement to a right to welfare or economic justice.

What Obama is saying, as a constitutional scholar, is that US courts have applied the US Constitution in determining what government cannot do in encroaching on individuals' lives.  He didn't say the US Constitution was flawed, just that the courts traditionally have not interpreted the Constitution in manner which provides that the government can be compelled, based on constitutional interpretation, to do certain things.  In essence, what Obama stated was that historically, there has been little judicial activism in applying the constitutional to compel government actions. 

This is very different from other jurisdictions, and Obama would certainly be aware of this.  In Canada, for example, the constitution is interpreted in a manner that does allow for positive rights.  Similarly, the EU Court of Justice (which is often used as a sort of "last resort" for EU citizens, as citizens typically will apply to the situs law before resorting to an EU community laws) have interpreted rights positively.

[Sculpto]

what did Bush do with the federal attorneys?  And after that you somehow find fault with a return to fairness?

Blues.. there has been a redistribution of wealth in this country over the last 30 years.. from the middle class to the rich.  The percentage pay disparity from average workers to execs has become astronomical.  This disparity does not reflect the ability of said executives to produce anything of value for said companies.  I confront this on a daily basis in my industry where privately owned suppliers provide excellent quality and responsive customer service, and, corporate owned suppliers FAIL constantly and are over burdened with over paid execs that do nothing but make rules and excuses.

We need to get back to basics in the country and do what we do best.. innovate and make stuff.  If we continue to empower corporate robber barrons who in turn enable to corrupt bankers and politicians there is not going to be anything left for the rest of us to live on.

That is not left or right.. its just logic backed up by fact.  The corportations can not be trusted to act in the best interest of people, so, that leaves us only the government.  If the government is hands off, the abuses will continue until we are all bankrupt in default. if the government intervenes the political puppets on the right complain and impede progress.  Can't have the cake and eat it too.

[OlgaH]

Hitler had overwhelming majority of votes from the big working-class areas of Germany. 

How Hitler came to power, why working class started to support Nazi and the Nazifcation of Germany I think William Shirer wrote well in his The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Hitler always had problems with votes till the Reichstag fire, act of terrors, "communism conspiracy"  and  atmosphere of crisis organized and created by Nazi.  When people in distress they easy believe in propaganda, promises and hope...   

[Blues Fairy]

What Obama is saying, as a constitutional scholar, is that US courts have applied the US Constitution in determining what government cannot do in encroaching on individuals' lives.  He didn't say the US Constitution was flawed, just that the courts traditionally have not interpreted the Constitution in manner which provides that the government can be compelled, based on constitutional interpretation, to do certain things.  In essence, what Obama stated was that historically, there has been little judicial activism in applying the constitutional to compel government actions. 

See for yourself if he is just stating facts or explaining his philosophy:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck[/youtube]