Life Changes

[HiTech]

I believe she (Elena, I'm ass-uming "Elana" was a typo   ) argues for Visit One in her first book, now a few years old.  I recall thinking, "Hm, could start an argumentative thread on RWD about that"....  

In a subsequent book, she talks about "if you meet 3 ladies on your visit...", apparently not making an argument for or against either tactic.  

rambler, you have a point about women choosing to be immune to logic, but I think the most important point BillyB is making is - whatever your path - don't lie.  (BTW, I met my current gf on a VM.  )

The last time I read her book,(over 2 years ago) she was for VM but was starting to reconsider that VO may work out more often.

But her book was off on many things, like suggestion of giving many presents on the first trip. If you have read her story you can see that she was very lucky in meeting the guy on her first time meeting anyone. No where does she cover the real deal of 90% of visits that do not work the first trip, and what to do when they don't work.

While reading her book does give a touch of insight into FSUW thinking, I believe it would normally be a recipe for disaster.

HiTech

[Faux Pas]

The last time I read her book,(over 2 years ago) she was for VM but was starting to reconsider that VO may work out more often.

But her book was off on many things, like suggestion of giving many presents on the first trip. If you have read her story you can see that she was very lucky in meeting the guy on her first time meeting anyone. No where does she cover the real deal of 90% of visits that do not work the first trip, and what to do when they don't work.

While reading her book does give a touch of insight into FSUW thinking, I believe it would normally be a recipe for disaster.

HiTech

Where do you get that 90% figure?

[Misha]

I'd mention that Elena of Elena's Models sells a book that mentions it. Her opinion is that RW do not compete for men, men compete for women.

 

Well, Elena does have a business to run and needs to maintain a certain mystique about Russian women.

I remember reading one Russian forum where women were discussing over a few dozen pages the best strategies for a woman to win a man away from his wife. If that isn't "competing for men," what is?

Misha

[Daveman]

While reading her book does give a touch of insight into FSUW thinking, I believe it would normally be a recipe for disaster.

HiTech

Agreed...

If it is the same one I read a few years back, she also indicates that being a one trip wonder is a good approach, even if the the man and woman can't communicate well together -- paraphrased -- "if you like her, get her in the sack and it'll be easier to get the ring on her finger" or something similar..   While I certainly have no qualms with any two consenting adults doing whatever they wish, that one trip choose your lady and get married suggestion is ridiculous.

I just don't get that rush rush mentality, on either side of this equation.

[myrddin]

Agreed...

If it is the same one I read a few years back, she also indicates that being a one trip wonder is a good approach, even if the the man and woman can't communicate well together -- paraphrased -- "if you like her, get her in the sack and it'll be easier to get the ring on her finger" or something similar..   While I certainly have no qualms with any two consenting adults doing whatever they wish, that one trip choose your lady and get married suggestion is ridiculous.

I just don't get that rush rush mentality, on either side of this equation.

Nor do I.  No matter how you meet, it takes time to build an actual relationship.

I honestly don't remember reading that "rush" advice.  But I'd be surprised if someone read one ebook, followed it to the letter, and never considered anything else.  Then again, I have once or twice been surprised.     I'd guess such a person would not have much chance of success anyway. 

[JR]

Once they know you are there to see someone else as well as her. IT NEVER WORKS OUT. period. I mean if anyone should know she should. There is no reasoning with a woman,

Hmm, I went to Russia in the early nineties and visited five women that I had be smail-mailing. Before I went I made it clear that I was meeting people I had been writing to in a friendly fashion and if something more developed it would do so naturally. Not one of them was thrilled to hear that. Not one of them baulked and refused to see me. I met all five, went back to see just one, got engaged and was married to her for 10.5 years.

My advice is do what seems best and pleases you. Be upfront and honest. And as Billy says, never blink. I may have blinked a few times along the way but I managed to recover. It's your life, your adventure, (yes life is an adventure, you should embrace it as such) don't let someone you've never met and as in Billy's case with "O" (never will meet) run it for you.

Again Billy, I like your style. Confidence reigns supreme in the world of attraction.

[Gator]

Good work Billy
This girl has nice eyes:
http://www.loveme.com/invar/services/women/women_extraphoto.php?wid=105001&wname=6_Marina

Muddy, what little I know about you, I confidently would have selected that woman for you. 

Trashy innocence, and not bright.

[Gator]

No where does she cover the real deal of 90% of visits that do not work the first trip, and what to do when they don't work.

What do you mean by "90% of visits do not work the first trip...?"

I met my wife at the end of my first trip (30 days, VM).  Our relationship took a convoluted path, yet we eventually married.

[Muddy]

Muddy, what little I know about you, I confidently would have selected that woman for you. 

Trashy innocence, and not bright.

You need to work on your sense of humor buddy!

Its DUMB to be so serious.

[groovlstk]

You need to work on your sense of humor buddy!

Its DUMB to be so serious.

I thought Gator's characterization was quite funny, myself. 

[HiTech]

met my wife at the end of my first trip (30 days, VM)

I am referring to VO Gator.  And that 90% of the time the VO does not work the first trip.

HiTech

[Muddy]

For Billy only:
http://www.angelika.net/ladies/fb0751.shtml

[BillyB]

Thanks Muddy. If only the rest of the forum cared about me as much as you, I'd have a harem worth of women.

   Leaving Kiev didn't leave me with many options. "A" needed a man who'd open a business for her. The 19 yo seemed more infatuated with me which in not a good thing to start a relationship with because when the infatuation wears off, will she care about me or not? Irina seemed like the best choice. She really liked me after some serious talk. The only problem is that she's too comfortable living in Kiev and living in Kiev is not an option for me.

 
  As I approached my seat on the airplane, I noticed a pretty lady sitting behind me. I then put my carry on baggage in the overhead bin and took another look at her. She was looking at me and we locked eyes. She was looking at me long enough for me to know she was attracted to me. I was determined to get her phone number.

 
  After a few hours into the flight I finally found a good opportunity to talk. After peeking through the seats and noticing the Belorussian babushka sitting next to her was sleeping and the guy next to me was sleeping I turned around and popped my head up and asked her what her name was. I introduced myself and I learned her business traveling to America.

 
  "V" who's 28 yo said she's visiting relatives. I learned she's got relatives all over the World working as doctors. She herself has two degrees, one in nursing and the other in economics. She comes from a family with a lot of intelligence. She owns a car and lives in the center of Kiev. When she went into the interview, it took less than a minute and they approved her for a 5 year tourist visa.

 
  This is all good news to me. Met a woman with intelligence, a good job, and has a 5 year tourist visa. This trip was her second visit and she loves it in America. The more I talk, the more she likes what she's hearing. I ask for her number and get it without any hesitation.

 
  We talk occasionally throughout the flight and the Belorussian babushka knows what's going on. She can tell by a man's eyes, mine, when he's attracted to a woman. When we get off the plane into the passenger carrier vehicle that takes us to passport control, I try to get another look at V sitting in the distance but she doesn't look back. The babushka looks at me and smiles and then talks to V, then she looks at me again, smiles and talks to V and does this about 5 more times. V refrains from looking but she knows she doesn't have to get my attention anymore. She knows I'm going to call her.

 
  I sat next to a Ukrainian man(UM) who was traveling to America to buy used farm equipment that his company will refurbish and send to Ukraine. We had many good conversations and after he found out my purpose in Kiev, he told me he was called to be a translator at the police station. A 60 yo American man wanted to have his 27 yo ex girlfriend arrested. Apparently he bought his girlfriend all kinds of expensive gifts and gave her over $5000 in cash. The UM said the woman was so gorgeous that he was almost speechless when talking with her. The 60 yo guy flew in a high powered California attorney to help him put his ex in jail. But the Ukrainian cops determined there was no scam because it was disclosed they had sex so there was some form of a relationship. She wanted to break up because she has a change of heart she says. The translator was disgusted with the way the American man acted and he and the cops thought of him a fool.

 
  I've talked to the UM and Alex, the apartment manager, about the various type of Western men that travel to Ukraine. They don't seem to have any problem with the guys who are coming there to marry or are sex tourists but when speaking of marriage minded men who come there and spoil the women with gifts, apartments and cash, they spoke with anger. The women there will then think what's happening when dating Western men is the norm and unfortunately most Ukrainian men won't be able to compete. Too many guys out there trying to buy women's love. I guess cash and gifts make up for what they lack in confidence and quality character traits.

[BillyB]

 

  Meeting RW the natural way such as the way I did with V on the airplane and the 19 yo in the coffee shop is a good way to meet RW if the lady(s) you came to see don't work out. RW are all over the street, especially when the weather is good.

 
  In the 11 times I've been in the FSU I'm always aware of my surroundings when flying to and from the FSU and I usually find at least one single attractive lady near the boarding gate who may be of any nationality. Some of those ladies are absolutely gorgeous. I would sit near her, not next to her. After a while I'll start a conversation and I've found that almost every time I get a good response and I've felt I could've got a phone number if I asked but I don't. Most my visits to the FSU were to my fiancee and I've stayed faithful to her when traveling and when I'm at home. I've missed out on some great opportunities that a playboy would've capitalized on.

 
  When I was younger, I use to get butterflies in my stomach talking to ladies I wanted to ask out. Acting nervous may give the impression that a man's desperate. The way I beat it is to talk to the most beautiful woman whenever I can without the thought of getting in her pants. Talking to her as a friend without any serious intentions is the best way to start out talking. My social skills in communicating with ladies is sharp. Not perfect but I can command the attention of most women and keep them interested in hearing more of what I say.

 
  A friend of mine, who's 41, and I talked recently that if we only knew what we know now when we were young, we'd have an easier time catching women. Most of you older guys know what I'm talking about. I'm fortunate to be only 39 and "get it".

 
A couple of more interesting phone calls I want to mention about:

 
  I called up one lady and we talked for 20 minutes. She said she put up a profile on bride.ru because she was upset and at the urging of a friend place the ad as a joke to give her a good laugh at the crazy guys who'd write her. She was delighted to have found some good men out there and she met one instantly and is going on a trip with him to Thailand for her birthday soon. I said "Wait a minute! Your profile is 2 weeks old and you've already made a commitment with a man and going to Thailand?" She said "Yes, it's wonderful and he's a good man, I just know it" She speaks more and it seems like destiny to her.

 
  She's a romantic and still polite with me on the phone although she made a commitment to another man. I hope he's everything she wants but damn, that guy is fast, so fast it reeks of desperation.

 
  Another woman had her profile put up by her parents as a joke to show her how many crazy people are out there. She enjoyed talking to me but she never had any intention to meet a man from another country and leave her's.

 
  One woman who was 29 asked my age and I told her 39. She said "Oh...., you're young!" I said "Why are you surprised by that?" She said "because old guys are the majority of the men who write her." She told me that one German man said he was 40 in his letters and sent her photos 25 years younger than he actually was since he was in his mid 60's. When they met, she was shocked and wanted to run away! But she was polite and went out with him once.

 
  That guy was an idiot to think he could lie and get away with it. He's mentally ill to believe he looks the same now as he did 25 years ago. Did he expect to fool a RW into marrying him and hide his birth certificate forever? He wasted his money on flying over there because of his stupidity. My guess his backup plan to guarantee a young lady on his trip was a call girl.

[BillyB]

 

  Getting back home and communicating with V was great. Every other day we were on the phone, she would always say "Thank you for calling" and " I like to hear your voice".  Although she spoke better English than most in the FSU, she still asked me to teach her and correct her.

 
She has a lot going for her in life. Two degrees, family full of doctors, lives in the center of Kiev, donates her time to a charity organization, good job, car, and a 5 year tourist visa. She's a winner in a lot of ways and she likes me so it was an easy decision to meet her.

 
Our first date and she invites me to a inexpensive cafe and I meet one of her friends. I ask her friend to tell me something good about V. She does. Then I ask her friend to tell me something bad about V. She laughs and says "V's an angel". V likes to smile and laugh and I told her I don't see many people in Ukraine laughing. She said a lot of people think she's crazy for laughing all the time. I tell her "I can tell, the people behind you were looking over when you laugh out loud, it is not normal".

 
On our second date I meet another friend and it's her best friend and I invite her to the opera with us in a few days. Sometimes V would ask me to lunch during her work hours. Most places she chose seemed nice but not tourist expensive. V's parents and relatives live in another city so meeting them on this trip was not possible.

 
One evening she canceled our date because she has things to do for the charity organization. She asked me if I was angry as if she's testing me to see how I was going to react. I told her I'm not angry but I'm not happy. I told her that we should learn as much as possible about each other while I'm here because when I go back, we won't be able to see each other for a while. She said it's not normal to date everyday and told me it takes time to build love for someone and proceeded to give me stories of Romeo and Juliet and Prince Rainier and Princess Grace.

 
She's a romantic and for the first time I realize I'm not dealing with the usual RW on the Internet. I met her in a natural way and she expected to date in a natural way instead of mass dating in a compressed amount of time.

 
Other than she canceling our date, everything was fine until I asked her when could I go and meet her cats. She then proceeded to tell me in a soft voice that started out with an apology that she should have told me earlier that she lives with her ex boyfriend. She the ask me if I was angry. I said in a calm voice "No, I understand you  wanted to see me very much and I'm flattered but I once asked you if you lived with anybody and you said no". I told her "I can't go out like this with her. It is not romantic anymore".

 
Trying to do damage control she said everything will be alright and that she likes me. I told her I can't block this out of my mind and I can't accept it. She kept saying "Everything will be alright".  but I tell her to "Look at it this way from people on the outside looking in. It's not normal for a woman to continue to live with her ex boyfriend and if my friends and family ask about who lives with you, do I tell them a beautiful lie or ugly truth and have them bad mouth you behind my back?" She doesn't answer.


Since she like to read books I told her "To begin reading one chapter of a book, you must finish the previous chapter. Same goes with life and your relationships. If you want to be with me, you have to move out." She said "Everything will be fine and don't worry". I said "I will worry, I know myself and when I go back home, it's going to be on my mind that you're sleeping with him".

 
After numerous more attempts at damage control she gets frustrated at what I'm saying and says "It's my body and I should be able to decide what I want to do with it". I said "Yes, that's true but I have decisions too and I would not come here knowing that you are still living with your ex boyfriend. By lying to me, you have taken away my right to make a good decision in my life".

 
She didn't want to break up but with two days left, I knew what I had to do. Make some calls.

[JR]

Damn, what a rollercoaster....

[BillyB]

Damn, what a rollercoaster....

Ain't that the norm in dating?

I figure half the people who marry end up in divorce and it takes 10-20 dates with different women to find that special one that's worth marrying anyway. The odds aren't good and another reason why it's insane to put all your eggs in one basket and do a WOVO.

I clearly understand the benefits of WOVO in that you are able to give all your attention to one woman and hopefully she receives you well compared to the guy who gives her less than half his time during his vacation. But even with a VO, chances are she won't be marrying you or you won't be marrying her because it can only take one thing to break you two up.

Even if a man does a VO prepared to give all his attention to one woman, I learned if he's prepared to do VM, he won't miss a beat dating other women. It's easy to get a date in the FSU whether you're using a dating site or meeting ladies on the street. I did never needed to use an agency yet. Maybe we can invent some sort of hybrid VO/VM strategy? With the turn of a switch, a guy could instantly go VM if the VO lady goes bad.

Everything went well with V and we already agreed she come visit me in a few months on her tourist visa. All it took was one thing in her life to shut things down and that was living with her ex-boyfriend. She had a choice to move out and take her chances with me but she chose a comfortable lifestyle in the center of Kiev. I suspect that she couldn't afford a place in the center without him. She tried to have it both ways by telling me it'll be alright with her living there but no matter how much sugar she put on the situation, it still tasted like crap.

Here we have in another recent thread some men are able to live with their woman currently working as a prostitute and I can't even accept my woman living with an ex-boyfirend. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Maybe V's not screwing her ex-boyfirend to pay rent but I can't go home with the thought she is and be happy about it.

I made a lot of phone calls with two days left. Some ladies wanted to meet me but couldn't since it was a holiday weekend and they had plans with relatives or they are out of town.

Some ladies I called again from my last visit to Kiev but they didn't want to go out this time. I didn't tell them I called previously 2 months ago so for all they know, I'm calling them for the first time. Many of them this time around said they aren't interested in meeting men off the internet anymore. Some confessed that dealing with foreign men have turned them off after a few weeks or months experience. I tell them not to give up hope and to expect to have to sort through the garbage to find a good man whether he's on the internet or in Kiev. Also I learned these beautiful ladies haven't found a boyfriend yet in the two months I called them. Not enough good guys out there or maybe the ladies have such high standards most men can't meet? They could be single for a long time.

I did get one date and I met another in a coffee shop with two days left.

[Muddy]

Ain't that the norm in dating?

I figure half the people who marry end up in divorce and it takes 10-20 dates with different women to find that special one that's worth marrying anyway. The odds aren't good and another reason why it's insane to put all your eggs in one basket and do a WOVO.

You are so right Billy, the numbers are even worse than that, it takes so much time and money and you can lose so much, so why do you want to ruin your life kid? To tell you the truth Russian women are overrated!

[groovlstk]

To tell you the truth Russian women are overrated!

Especially the ones who use fools as mules, right Muddy?

[Muddy]

Man, you're stupid groovlstk!
A SIMPLE STUPID MAN!

Dont you have anything better to do that to follow me and post STUPID garbage?
Russian girls don't like STALKERS, stupid fool!

[groovlstk]

Russian girls don't like STALKERS, stupid fool!

Muddy, are you "coming out" now as a Russian female? Please post a few bikini shots here, I'm sure a few of the single guys would like to whisper sweet nothings into your keylogger.

[Muddy]

Why don't you find go something to play with donkey man?
groovlstk "the donkey man" is back on my ignore list!
Sorry Billy, its not my fault your topic is going in the wrong direction again!

[Muddy]

Muddy, are you "coming out" now as a Russian female? Please post a few bikini shots here, I'm sure a few of the single guys would like to whisper sweet nothings into your keylogger.

keylogger, keylogger, keylogger, .... yes don't forget the keylogger! 
You just cant forget it!
Say keylogger 100 times tonight before you go to sleep, I bet you even dream about the keylogger!
 
I know yo uthin k about it alot, now it has become part of your life
You are so SIMPLE!

[GoodOlBoy]

A new Avatar for Muddy??  :evil:


GOB

[Faux Pas]

A new Avatar for Muddy??  :evil:


GOB