If she doesnt let you meet her parents by the second visit

[Sculpto]

In my situation there was serious doubt for a long time why she didn't want me to go in Tomsk.  She kept making general statements about it being a bad time because her Father died recently.  Finally there was a serious confrontation about it in which I made it clear if I didn't get the whole story I would be calling off the whole relationship.  At that point she confessed to some very specific issues regarding her extended family and at that point I understood why she kept avoiding the details before and also understood why going to Tomsk now would not only be a risk to her but in fact a danger to me.  Via a variety of methods I confirmed the validity of her story and the cultural issues that surround it.  I have communicated with her Mother via chat with cam as well as her Sister.  They all want me to visit but only AFTER an appropriate time has passed, 1 year, from the death of her Father.  

I do not disagree meeting parents is important, however, to write off a woman only because of this I still believe is a mistake.  There are a myriad of legitimate reasons not to meet parents.  In my own case my fiance will NEVER meet my Father.  If she was using the same litmus test as is being proposed here she would have ended it with me.  I simply told her I didn't want her to meet my Father and with no further explanation she understood.  Later, she asked, "what with your Father" and I openly told her the story and she agreed she didn't want to meet him.  

In summary, concrete rules are for construction sites, not for relationships.  

[Misha]

On the other side of the coin, it's foolish to be pulled into a meeting with the family of a girl you hardly know.  Meet them only when you are serious about her.  Just use good common sense and you will be ok.

Well said. I met my wife's mother roughly 3 weeks after we started dating. By that time, we both knew that we had found the one. Made for a very natural and enjoyable meeting. Though, my wife had to slowly break the news to her mother that I was a foreigner  

[kievstar]

I do think Greg has some very good advice about the parents.  If people are communicating via phone and skype prior to first meeting for awhile and the first visit is for a longtime then parents should be seen if within reasonable distance.  95% should fall within the norm here.  I only mentioned the Russia and Kiev thing as I met many girls who live in Kiev but there family is deep in Russia.  I met my wife with no prior communication and for 1 day.  Second to third meeting were in Kiev but I talked Russian with her parents.  But I am the 5%.  Greg does provide good advise and for guys with no clue should follow it.  You may miss out on one good girl with it but their tons of good girls in the world.  

When I got tired of dating hundreds of women, I found my wife in a city where she lived with her parents.  Date women who live close to their parents.  I could tell you horror stories of what many girls in Kiev do with the men they meet.  Greg's advise would eliminate them quickly.

[Simoni]

. Made for a very natural and enjoyable meeting. Though, my wife had to slowly break the news to her mother that I was a foreigner  

Yes, that was my big problem, too!  :-) LOL

[kievstar]

Hi Sculpto, I know your situation with the fathers on both sides.  Makes sense to me why no involvement.  When in your relationship did her mother know about you compared to your first physical meeting with your girlfriend.  I think I remember the two mothers exchanging gifts?

[Sculpto]

Meet them only when you are serious about her.  Just use good common sense and you will be ok.

I would postulate that meeting parents is no guarantee of anything in regards to scam.  Nuts don't fall far from trees usually.  If a girl is heavily invested in becoming a GCG or some other kind of scam she had to learn it from somewhere.  If a girl thinks there is a big payoff what makes "you" (generic) think that parents and siblings might not be in on it and helping to perpetuate the scam?

If you are trying to beat a criminal you must be able to think like one, and, be able to trust your instincts and not your 'lil fella when it comes to making the big step.

I would also point out that two rather smart ladies have already mentioned this parental meeting criteria is flawed.  Perhaps instead of making sweeping statements we should be asking these ladies to elaborate more and perhaps explain some of the subtleties that men who are caught up in the emotion of falling in love might miss.

[KenC]

One can find exceptions for every rule.  That does not invalidate the rule.  Meeting the parents is a big deal.  It is a validation that the woman is serious about your relationship.  Sure, there may be some valid reasons for not doing so, but you should be suspicious if the woman avoids introducing you to her family.

I met Lena's family on my first visit.  I went there thinking that if I wasn't introduced, our relationship was not too serious (yet).  I agree with Greg that if the introduction is avoided on your second visit something is up and it is a big red flag.

Keep in mind that everyone is different, but if you make an excuse for one variant behavior and then another and another, pretty soon she is not accountable for anything.
KenC

[Simoni]

One can find exceptions for every rule. 
KenC

And that's my only point here.

Having said that, I'll repeat that meeting the parents of the girl you are interested in is vital.  But one has to define "second meeting" more carefully before absolutes are mandated...

[groovlstk]

One can find exceptions for every rule.  That does not invalidate the rule.  Meeting the parents is a big deal. 

I agree with both Ken and Simoni. I think the mistake is saying it has to be done within x number of visits. Logistics and her comfort level with you (and vice versa) might put this on the agenda for the first meeting or the fourth.

Obviously, the key to look for is her willingness or unwillingness to introduce you.

[Sculpto]

Hi Sculpto, I know your situation with the fathers on both sides.  Makes sense to me why no involvement.  When in your relationship did her mother know about you compared to your first physical meeting with your girlfriend.  I think I remember the two mothers exchanging gifts?

Hi Kiev,
"A" and I communicated via chat and phone for 14 months before I went to see her the first time.  Her Mom knew after about five months as I remember.  The original plan was to meet in Tomsk, but, when her Father got sick that all changed.  She said family had too many problems and everyone was sad.  It only got worse after he died.  

I am not going to get into explicit details about what the dangers are except to say.. there are some unsavory characters on the Armenian side of the family who will be offended about two things if I showed up now.. one, that she is involved with any man right after her Father died.. and second.. which would be forgivable barely under normal circumstances, that I am not only not Armenian but even worse, foreign.  Through multiple independent sources I was able to confirm that it would be dangerous to me personally to show up at this time

She was really embarrassed about this family situation.  She is not proud of it which is why she didn't want to get into details.  She was afraid I would reject her because of it.  She was being recruited by these shady characters and has resisted them which has caused her a lot of problems.  

so, yes, something was going on, but, not even close to what I thought it was, or, what responders here thought either.

No black and white.. lots of colors and grays.

[Sculpto]

I am agreeing with Groov and by proxy Ken and Simoni.. (surprised guys?)

My girl really wants me to meet her Mom.  Her Mom really wants to meet me.  As you all have understood "A" is somewhat problematic or at least enigmatic and her Mom got very emotional on the phone with me when she understood I was serious about "A" and capable of putting up with her craziness.  Her Mom was probably afraid "A" would never get married.

What I am really liking is on the backside of all this, when we finally do go to Tomsk together, probably next summer, we will have another wedding there for her family members, even though we will already be married.  This wedding is already being planned by her Mom and sister.

BTW.. her Gay BFF who works for Gazprom is super excited and is also already planning to visit us.. wants me to introduce him to my GAY friends. 

[I/O]

Never met a girl (Home or abroad) who I was interested in meeting again who wasn't interested in my meeting her family immediately.

On this one, I always judged others by the standards I set for myself. The girls I wasn't keen to introduce to my family were the ones I wasn't serious about. Why should I expect different from a woman. Meeting family is a big deal for most. In my experience it had nothing to do with seeking approval for marriage but had everying to do with bringing someone I thought special into the "Inclusion Zone". 

I/O

[Sculpto]

I/O.. doesn't it also depend on how close you are with your own family?  I mean, in my own case, I am not at all close with my family.  In SF this is pretty common.. and a lot of people I know are disconnected from their family.  I have a good relationship with my Mom, but, at the same time I am almost reluctant to have my Mom more than superficially involved with my future wife.  I am not anxious to be deeply involved with my future wife's family either.  In my view, which is very unconventional, my long term friends are much more important.

I am not trying to say that anyone should follow my path on this topic, just, that there are different ways of viewing it.

[Daveman]

Sculpto,
I think you know that I have no personal axe to grind with you, as my previous interactions with you should clearly show that.  You seem to be an interesting guy who'd probably be a blast to hang around with.  What I do have a small problem with is that your situation is so off the charts abnormal, I mean into another world of abnormality compared to what most if not all guys will face in this pursuit that you simply should not be using your relationship as any form of example for any other man who is looking for sound methodology to examine - unless he's dating/chasing an Armenian woman, with some kind of ties/proximity to the criminal underworld, with brothers who will kill foreigners --  it's just too bizarre.   I do hope everything works out long term but if any other guy follows some of your examples, he will most likely fail because your situation, if it does indeed succeed long term, will be truly a one in a million exception.  It's like you need to post a disclaimer with your posts "reader beware, my situation is so completely different from what anyone else will probably ever face that the information presented in this post is overwhelmingly most likely to never apply to anyone else"... do you understand the point I'm trying to make here?

[BC]

I met my future MIL the third time we met.

My wife met my parents a year or so after we married.

Is what's good for the gander not good enough for the goose?

[Sculpto]

Sculpto,
I think you know that I have no personal axe to grind with you, as my previous interactions with you should clearly show that.  You seem to be an interesting guy who'd probably be a blast to hang around with.  What I do have a small problem with is that your situation is so off the charts abnormal, I mean into another world of abnormality compared to what most if not all guys will face in this pursuit that you simply should not be using your relationship as any form of example for any other man who is looking for sound methodology to examine - unless he's dating/chasing an Armenian woman, with some kind of ties/proximity to the criminal underworld, with brothers who will kill foreigners --  it's just too bizarre.   I do hope everything works out long term but if any other guy follows some of your examples, he will most likely fail because your situation, if it does indeed succeed long term, will be truly a one in a million exception.  It's like you need to post a disclaimer with your posts "reader beware, my situation is so completely different from what anyone else will probably ever face that the information presented in this post is overwhelmingly most likely to never apply to anyone else"... do you understand the point I'm trying to make here?

I do understand that Dave.  The only point I want to make is that concrete rules are a bad way to go about things.  So much nuance is missed or ignored when people are rigid. 

Besides that.. how does a guy ever know what kind of baggage his beloved has in her past?  There are as many variations as there are people and to assign rigid structures simply eliminates a lot of potential love matches. 

What if a lady's parents are dead and she as an only child?  Don't date her?  Don't marry her?  Rejected just because she doesn't have a family to visit?

[Blues Fairy]

My husband met my Mom on our 5th meeting (in Sweden), some time after I went to the US to meet his folks.  He still hasn't met my father, and not likely to do so any time soon.  I think the OP's advice relates to the situation when the whole family is still close and lives in one town; but if they are scattered around the world like my folks, or not talking to each other, it's completely another story. 

I never considered parents' approval as any prerequisite for my relationships, but the introduction of my fiance to my mother, and meeting his folks, was important to me.

[GregfromGa]

I do understand that Dave.  The only point I want to make is that concrete rules are a bad way to go about things.  So much nuance is missed or ignored when people are rigid. 

Besides that.. how does a guy ever know what kind of baggage his beloved has in her past?  There are as many variations as there are people and to assign rigid structures simply eliminates a lot of potential love matches. 

What if a lady's parents are dead and she as an only child?  Don't date her?  Don't marry her?  Rejected just because she doesn't have a family to visit?

Dude, you're way off here. I dont know your story. I could absolutely care less as well. You just seem like the kind of person that likes to try and have the upperhand on most posters here. You're ignored by a number of people for some reason I dont know. I didnt say my theory was exact science but I have been around for a while. I like a lot of others have read the tales and saw a many come and go and disappear to never be heard from again. You said you didnt want a relationship with your wifes family and it has something or another to do with being from SF. You see I just dont get that and I'm even trying to ascertain what it might mean. It reads like to me that you have much work to do. It's going to be a while before you reach knowitall status here. I can think of a few on here that I would listen to if I were just getting my feet wet at this. My friend you're a long way off just yet. I do wish you luck though and hope that you find what you're looking for.

[Boethius]

I think we all feel like this when we're young. It actually reeks of Gen Y so many of the young-uns around us would be horrified to know teens were just as rebellious 30 or 40 years ago.

I feel the same way today.  I was not rebellious, ever.  I am liberal in views re society, but in my personal life, I am, and always have been, extremely conservative.  And it was 25 years ago.  I am in my 40's.

If my mother hadn't approved of my current marriage it wouldn't have changed my mind...  I make my own decisions - but in my family (and this includes my wife's family), it would be seen as highly disrespectful to marry someone without even introducing the person to the family - and that is important.

But different families are different.  That's the point.

I know we're all different... but for us family values were critical characteristics we each were looking for in a life partner.

When you marry, you create your own family.  That being stated, I am close to my family.  My children always spent, and still spend, a great deal of time with my parents, as I and my husband did with our grandparents.  My Grandmother, who could no longer live on her own, lived with us before her death. 

My children were never left with a sitter outside the family (nor have their cousins).  They are all close not only to grandparents and their first cousins, but also, to my aunts, uncles and cousins, and their first cousins have these relations on both sides of the family.

[Sculpto]

Dude, you're way off here. I dont know your story. I could absolutely care less as well. You just seem like the kind of person that likes to try and have the upperhand on most posters here. You're ignored by a number of people for some reason I dont know. I didnt say my theory was exact science but I have been around for a while. I like a lot of others have read the tales and saw a many come and go and disappear to never be heard from again. You said you didnt want a relationship with your wifes family and it has something or another to do with being from SF. You see I just dont get that and I'm even trying to ascertain what it might mean. It reads like to me that you have much work to do. It's going to be a while before you reach knowitall status here. I can think of a few on here that I would listen to if I were just getting my feet wet at this. My friend you're a long way off just yet. I do wish you luck though and hope that you find what you're looking for.

yeah whatever Greg.  I tried to contribute something of value and you do nothing to refute my comments except attack me personally.  Regardless of whether or not I have come to any conclusion of anything with my Russian lady.. I have a lot of experience with women, and for that matter people.  Some people, with more open minds, find my advice/perspectives useful.  Also seems to me rather interesting that my commentary is in line with the experiences the ladies have posted.  So.. go right ahead and diminish and ignore all you want.  I wont waste my time posting in this thread since the information you are providing is rather useless anyway.

[Boethius]

You said you didnt want a relationship with your wifes family and it has something or another to do with being from SF. You see I just dont get that and I'm even trying to ascertain what it might mean. It reads like to me that you have much work to do. It's going to be a while before you reach knowitall status here. I can think of a few on here that I would listen to if I were just getting my feet wet at this. My friend you're a long way off just yet. I do wish you luck though and hope that you find what you're looking for.

That's not what I read.  What I read was that Sculpto's fiancee's paternal relatives would view her relationship with anyone as a sign of disrespect of the mourning period for her deceased father.  Traditional Orthodox markers for death are 40 days and one year. 

I think Sculpto was also saying that he grew up disconnected from his family, as his parents were divorced, and he has made a family of friends for himself.  I don't think that is uncommon for children of divorce either.

The reality is most of you are not living even remotely near to your spouse's families.  You perhaps see them once a year, if that.   They don't affect your daily lives, and can't interfere even if they want to.  So, Sculpto's take on the family he wishes to create is probably quite realistic.

Nobody can know anyone else's life.  All you get on boards are what people are willing to share, and that information is, at best, incomplete and highly subjective.  Sculpto's fiancee could be a scammer, or she could be the love of his life.  Everyone has their own journey.

[Sculpto]

Thanks Boethius.  She isn't a scammer.. she has had ample opportunity and her actions have proved otherwise repeatedly over an extended period of time.  She just has her own way of doing things that a lot of people here find unusual.   

When I was in the car wreck a week and a  half ago her first question after making sure I was physically ok was, "you have money?  if you need I will to send"  Sound like a scammer?