Wedding Canceled

[Sculpto]

lol Jolly.. social engineering is an art form.  I love putting it to good use.

[GQBlues]

Fair enough Sculpto...

Many moons ago when I first started my quest there was a member from another galaxy board (Flying Finn was his name) who wrote how his GF had 3 WM BFs all at the same time (sex and all) and they were all supporting her (him as well); and all he had to do was to send the text messages for her to her BFs.

My first time in Moscow on my way back home, 4 AM at the front lobby waiting for a cab, I had a small chat with 2 young, beautiful Ukrainian women (razzled hair) about how sad it will be for both of then once one of the girl's papers arrive from her Italian fiancee. Sad because they won't be able to pair-up to work in Moscow together anymore.

We're not searching or preaching absolutes here, we're simply noting dubious patterns in hopes somewhere along those lines we can help each other out ~ or even one member out.

[Boethius]

Well, I'll play devil's advocate here.  

I doubt Anna was a green card scammer.  Had she been, she would not have blinked at the OP balking at signing the pre-nup.  She would have come up with an excuse or massaged things so as not to lose the "ultimate prize".

The bottom line is neither of these two loved each other, so it is best they have parted ways.

[Sculpto]

GQ.. the sad thing is the story you related could be a certain class of women from anywhere.. it is not specific to the FSU by a long shot. 

Way back in my art school days we had a film presentation one Sunday.  I can't remember if it was Soviet or Czeck, but, the story was about two women who joined the "party".  One was a "believer" and the other was a player.  The player screwed her way to power taking down the local party boss due to his infidelity with her.  The believer was a work horse who never moved up, even though she really believed in the revolution.  The final scene was of the "believer" riding a bike down a deserted country lane to deliver a message.  Anyone recognize the film?  I have been trying to remember it forever. 

Anyway, my point is, some women learn at an early age how to manipulate men for their own benefit.  A man doesn't have to be brilliant to figure it out.  But, how many times do we hear the conversations here of men trying to "upgrade" but who also somehow fail to recognize obvious signs?  or, conversely, how often to we hear advice based on some abstract absolute that doesn't take everything into consideration? 

Ultimately, if we are to believe Ambach for example, if money/security is the main motivator for a lot of women to leave their country, then, if the lady in question had seen some signs she didn't like in the OP, and she read some horror stories on the internet, and someone told her to get a MC and demand a specific amount.. does that make her a scammer, or, merely a stupid girl who thinks she is looking out for her own best interests?  I am not advocating that view, just presenting an alternate.

[groovlstk]

Anyway, my point is, some women learn at an early age how to manipulate men for their own benefit. 

I'm married to a Russian woman and I have great reverence for her culture so I have no axe to grind, but IMHO such women are much more common in the FSU than the West. Economics and lack of opportunity, etc. etc, but it is what it is.

[Boethius]

such women are much more common in the FSU than the West

My better half says the same thing.  However, in his opinion, it is the result of seventy odd years of Bolshevism.

[Sculpto]

I'm married to a Russian woman and I have great reverence for her culture so I have no axe to grind, but IMHO such women are much more common in the FSU than the West. Economics and lack of opportunity, etc. etc, but it is what it is.

Groove.. I don't have any statistics one way or the other.. and you might very well be right.. but, lets consider a couple of things.  The divorce rate in both places is about the same.  From my graduating high school class, from what I have been able to gather from recent reconnects on FB, well over 50% of the marriages failed and some are on their second and third.  Several comments have been made about some women who married and divorced their way to wealth.  Right now, one of my fav high school sweethearts, who has been married 15 years, is on the verge of dumping her husband.. reasons?  he isn't romantic with her and he isn't giving her enough sex and of course the big one.. he is cheap and won't give her money nor let her work.  So, after 15 years and two kids she is going to leave him.  She still looks good and thinks a lot of guys with a lot more money will be interested in her because she has taken good care of herself and is "womanly".  She has absolutely no skills except being a Mom and a luncheon with the girls lady.   45 with two school aged kids.. what do you think her chances are?  I have advised her to find a way to work it out with her husband, but, I don't know if she has the strength to do it. 

I really don't think the dynamics are that different there and here, with one major exception.  Women here have had more opportunities to create their own wealth for a longer period of time.  But, hasn't that been a two edged sword for a lot of men in the USA?  When women don't need us for money.. then they only need us for sperm.. because face it.. even a real homely girl in the US can get some action without much effort. 

One day I might tell you about some girls I encountered a few years ago that had a bet they were working.  It would make any Russian scammer bow down in respect.  AWs are not that innocent when it comes to working a man.  They just aren't as hot/sexy/cute when they do it. 

[Gator]

There was no reason for her to lie about it...... We were going to reassess our relationship August 1 and go from there. 

Whoa!  You are still thinking about her?

She lied to you, and without reason.  This reveals that lying is her nature.  A woman in her 30s will not likely change.  If you get back together (and I hope you don’t based on what I see), every time a new conflict emerges the first thought in your head is, “She has lied to me before, so she probably is lying this time.”

Marry someone whom you can trust.  Trust really is important.  Not just for your peace of mind, but to be able to work together as a effective husband-wife partnership.

[Gator]

GoodBrew,

I doubt that a MC signed in Ukraine would hold water in the US. Nevertheless, you not sisgn anything that you are uncmfortable with.

If she had not brought this up at the last moment and did not have the other red flags (such as lying), I would say that you could make this work and still satisfy her.  You would say, "$50,000 is reasonable.  In fact, let us make it $100,000.  $2,500 if we divorce after one year,  $5,000 after two years ....$50,000 after 20 years...."

You wrote, "She waited all of two days after I left Kharkov before her new and improved profile went online." 

This woman is on a mission to fleece a foreigner. 

[Gator]

Her mocking you is her guilt speaking, an attempt to wash her hands of something she knows is wrong but did anyway.

  But, one thing I do know about people is when they feel guilt they will often make fun of the person they wronged in a feeble attempt to clear their own sour heart. 

Are you nuts?  Not even Dr. Phil would give such a lame excuse.

Mocking during such a situation shows no respect for GB and no empathy for what he could be feeling.  Also, she quickly moved on to looking for a new man when her marriage plans failed at the last momnet.  Don't forget, she also lies. 

What a sweetheart!

[GoodBrew]

Whoa!  You are still thinking about her?

Nope.  Not a chance.  Poor writing on my part.  The sequence of events is out of order.  Her lies were exposed after we had agreed to the August 1 deadline.  The last few days I have had to play along to make sure that the refund for the trip to Turkey would be delivered(it was!) and to see if there was any way that I could recover the engagement ring(not gonna happen).   

GoodBrew,

I doubt that a MC signed in Ukraine would hold water in the US. Nevertheless, you not sisgn anything that you are uncmfortable with.

If she had not brought this up at the last moment and did not have the other red flags (such as lying), I would say that you could make this work and still satisfy her.  You would say, "$50,000 is reasonable.  In fact, let us make it $100,000.  $2,500 if we divorce after one year,  $5,000 after two years ....$50,000 after 20 years...."

You wrote, "She waited all of two days after I left Kharkov before her new and improved profile went online." 

This woman is on a mission to fleece a foreigner. 

Your suggestion was considered for maybe a fraction of a second.  I found the whole idea of the MC dropped on me two weeks before the wedding to be insulting and offensive.  Doubtful it would have held up in court considering that it was sprung at the last minute.  If I signed the MC she might have stuck around in the States long enough to be eligible for a big payout after a divorce and then returned to Ukraine similar to what air2007 is describing in this thread.

   
   

[Ronnie]

Goodbrew,
Like Gator I thought you were actually leaving the door open for another run at it.  For anyone who thinks, after experiencing a similar thing, that there is a flicker of hope, I can only refer you to the wise words of the former leader of the free world:

[Sculpto]

Are you nuts?  Not even Dr. Phil would give such a lame excuse.

Mocking during such a situation shows no respect for GB and no empathy for what he could be feeling.  Also, she quickly moved on to looking for a new man when her marriage plans failed at the last momnet.  Don't forget, she also lies. 

What a sweetheart!

Gator.. I am not making excuses for anyone.  Just explaining the behavior as I see it.  From what we have heard her behavior has been despicable.  But I can't help thinking there is another side to this story.

[SMS60]

GB

Theres not another side to the story.

She did not get scared or have 2nd thoughts. You were walked on.

A good genuine women can have 2nd thoughts or get scared and want to call things off. This is part of relationships. But they do it in a different way. In your instance she would have retrurned the ring and made things less of a burden for you. She would have been a real person with a heart even though she was bailing on you.

So, dont 2nd guess yourself thinking if you should give it a 2nd chance.

take care

[Ronnie]

Report the incident to the US consul in Kyiv.  The can keep an eye on her name should it come up in connection with a future k-1 application.

[GoodBrew]

GB

Theres not another side to the story.

She did not get scared or have 2nd thoughts. You were walked on.

A good genuine women can have 2nd thoughts or get scared and want to call things off. This is part of relationships. But they do it in a different way. In your instance she would have retrurned the ring and made things less of a burden for you. She would have been a real person with a heart even though she was bailing on you.

So, dont 2nd guess yourself thinking if you should give it a 2nd chance.

take care

Yeah, this is the thought that keeps going through my head.  I was willing to accept that she got nervous.  Might have accepted that the MC idea was a dumb spur of the moment suggestion if I had not learned otherwise.  Was at one point open to her coming here as a fiancée instead a wife.  I would have accepted that she didn't want to marry me and let it go if she had just given the ring back instead of making excuses about its whereabouts.  A good woman would have done things differently.

    

    

[Sculpto]

if she had just given the ring back

Lets ask the ladies.. in the event of a breakup.. is the lady obligated to return the ring?

[SANDRO43]

Lets ask the ladies.. in the event of a breakup.. is the lady obligated to return the ring?

Just hazarding a guess: since we're told that an engagement ring is NOT an FSU tradition, I don't think FSUW would feel morally obligated to return it in case the deal goes belly up, as is implied - though not universally applied - in the West. Just a gift. Am I wrong?

[Boethius]

Sandro is correct.  Traditionally, engagement rings were never given in Ukraine.  This is imported from Western culture, and Ukrainians often do see it as a way of fleecing foreigners. 

In Western culture, if a woman breaks an engagement, she should return the ring.  If the man breaks the engagement, the woman is free to keep the ring.

[Daveman]

Sandro is correct.  Traditionally, engagement rings were never given in Ukraine.  This is imported from Western culture, and Ukrainians often do see it as a way of fleecing foreigners. 

In Western culture, if a woman breaks an engagement, she should return the ring.  If the man breaks the engagement, the woman is free to keep the ring.

Yep, and I will add as a furtherance of my own professed agenda, the whole concept of a "traditional engagement ring" is totally asinine... (climbing down from my anti DeBeers soap box)... hey, it others can promote their agendas with impunity.. I can promote mine!

Down With Treacherous lies of marketing hype!
Down With The Insanity of thinking compressed carbon has anything at all to do with love!

Boil the DeBeers speck! Boil that DeBeers speck! Beezlenut Oil! Beezlenut Oil!
Boil the DeBeers speck! Boil that DeBeers speck! Beezlenut Oil! Beezlenut Oil!

Two months salary my popka.

[SANDRO43]

Yep, and I will add as a furtherance of my own professed agenda, the whole concept of a "traditional engagement ring" is totally asinine... (climbing down from my anti DeBeers soap box)... hey, it others can promote their agendas with impunity.. I can promote mine!

Down With Treacherous lies of marketing hype!
Down With The Insanity of thinking compressed carbon has anything at all to do with love!

Boil the DeBeers speck! Boil that DeBeers speck! Beezlenut Oil! Beezlenut Oil!
Boil the DeBeers speck! Boil that DeBeers speck! Beezlenut Oil! Beezlenut Oil!

Two months salary my popka.

As if any sane FSUW'd accept a "traditional engagement ring" from an utterly deranged AM .

[Faux Pas]

Sandro is correct.  Traditionally, engagement rings were never given in Ukraine.  This is imported from Western culture, and Ukrainians often do see it as a way of fleecing foreigners. 

In Western culture, if a woman breaks an engagement, she should return the ring.  If the man breaks the engagement, the woman is free to keep the ring.

Not really. SANDRO was more on the mark. An engagement ring is a gift and should be viewed as a gift. Albeit a gift for a specific purpose and thus when an engagement is broken, many times the gift is returned. Many times it isn't, regardless of who broke the engagement. The gift is that of the receiver to do as they wish, return it or do something else. Once given, it is no longer the giver's option.

[Daveman]

As if any sane FSUW'd accept a "traditional engagement ring" from an utterly deranged AM .

HAHA! Sandro, you do have a point... and it is well taken...

I just put in for an emergency exorcism as I am obviously afflicted with diamonic possession (and therefore not responsible for my prior absurdity)

Returning you now to the informative thread already in progress...

[Boethius]

Emily Post's view is that an engagement ring should always be returned, unless it is a family heirloom of the bride.  I think that has changed over time.  I remember this being a big debate when Ann Landers used to write her advice column, and she subscribed to this view -

http://www.a-to-z-of-manners-and-etiquette.com/broken-engagement.html



Daveman  .

Diamonds can be manufactured now.  I don't wear diamonds because the diamond industry funds a lot of evil in the world.
[youtube=425,350]
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BQKJm1w82_s&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BQKJm1w82_s&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

[SANDRO43]

Not really. SANDRO was more on the mark.

FP, apparently the norm varies with the locale. Boethius's more specific 'rule' applies here in Italy, too.

The jilted fiancée keeping the ring is considered a rightful compensation for 'damages' incurred into , IINM our legislation never contemplated 'breach of promise'.