Ladies, are you receiving better healthcare in the United States?

[Sculpto]

So you don't agree with his rationalization, huh.    And yet in the next sentence you rationalize it yourself from the point of common good, society, commune etc etc.  

You see, in the free market you deplore, however large bills you later get stuck with, you will still get treatment for your condition, immediately upon need, with no discussion of how valuable your life is.  It's up to you and only you to figure out how much you can afford and what resources to use.  A public option will inevitably be rationed, and not in the ways it pays for treatment, but in the way it delivers treatment.  That's what worries and appalls me.  

Having said that, I would like to remind you that even now, with mostly private healthcare in the US, there are subsidized options for teenagers and kids at the state level (State Children's Health Insurance Program).

It is becoming more and more evident that you have absolutely no idea what the free market is, nor that you have any understand whatsoever that what we have in this country is quite far from a free market.  Try starting a business and making it successful Blues.. and then come back with your propaganda.  I don't think you could do it.

[BillyB]

btw.. where in Mex did you go?

Entered Mexico through Arizona, headed West and traveled the coast line all the way south till Acapulco, then headed East and straight up the middle of Mexico and entered back in through Texas. Seen big city Mexico City, tourist cities of course, small towns with dirt roads and kids without shoes, and old mid sized cities with 500 year old European style buildings. Lots of drug check points. Mexico's cops are corrupt and ask for donations. Their military, operating drug check points, never asked anybody for donations.

[Sculpto]

Entered Mexico through Arizona, headed West and traveled the coast line all the way south till Acapulco, then headed East and straight up the middle of Mexico and entered back in through Texas. Seen big city Mexico City, tourist cities of course, small towns with dirt roads and kids without shoes, and old mid sized cities with 500 year old European style buildings. Lots of drug check points. Mexico's cops are corrupt and ask for donations. Their military, operating drug check points, never asked anybody for donations.

Sounds like an awesome trip.  Local police in some areas are corrupt, but, the ones with "NARCO" on their shirts, and the military are solid.  Though, I suspect the days of local corruption are numbered. 

Did you have any encounters with Doctors or clinics, or, the Green Angels?

[BillyB]

Sounds like an awesome trip.  Local police in some areas are corrupt, but, the ones with "NARCO" on their shirts, and the military are solid.  Though, I suspect the days of local corruption are numbered. 

Did you have any encounters with Doctors or clinics, or, the Green Angels?

No. I made sure I didn't drink the water.

[Sculpto]

Green Angels are an amazing service..

They patrol the highways and help stranded motorists.  They charge only for any replacement parts.  Hmmm.. poor Mexico can finance that service and free basic health care for everyone but we can't do it in the USA. 

[Blues Fairy]

It is becoming more and more evident that you have absolutely no idea what the free market is, nor that you have any understand whatsoever that what we have in this country is quite far from a free market.  Try starting a business and making it successful Blues.. and then come back with your propaganda.  I don't think you could do it.

Sculpto, you must really have a thing for me, seeing how much you love insulting me on every occasion. 
Just because you had a miserable experience with a free market, does not mean you are an ultimate specialist on it. BTW I never said USA was a classical "free market" but in relative terms, it's still freer than most European countries. 

[BC]

BTW I never said USA was a classical "free market" but in relative terms, it's still freer than most European countries. 

Care to expound on that?

[Blues Fairy]

Care to expound on that?

Care to explain why you want me to expound on that?  You disagree?

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, you must really have a thing for me, seeing how much you love insulting me on every occasion. 
Just because you had a miserable experience with a free market, does not mean you are an ultimate specialist on it. BTW I never said USA was a classical "free market" but in relative terms, it's still freer than most European countries. 

Nothing special for you Blues.. but you have been pretty insulting towards me in some of your posts, so, it is nice to see you are starting to know that it doesn't always feel good.  Though of course now that I point that out I am sure you will instead of being introspective in any way you will find some way to attack me back for some perception you have or point you want to make.

Free markets do not exist anywhere.  There are degrees of regulation in every country.  Some countries try to be fair about things, others less so.  

Example.. my x gf from France.. her Father was a guild baker.  It took him years to be ALLOWED to open his bakery in his home town.  He had to wait until a well established baker retired.  The reason?  To prevent too much competition.  To be a guild baker meant certain quality standards had to be met and too much competition might cause someone to cheat and use inferior quality ingredients or some other form of cheating.  The net result.. when you walk into ANY bakery in France you can be sure you are going to get a similar quality product.  But, the other net result.. many aspiring bakers are forced to wait and work for lower wages or relocate to a different city until there is an opening for a new bakery.  So, on the one hand the rules insure good quality and that bakers can make a decent living, but, on the other hand it kind of crushes the entrepreneur, at least for a while.  Since it is France.. everyone gets health care included.

Now, contrast that with the US.. there is no such thing as a guild.  One bakery might have great bread and the one down the street might have garbage.  One baker might use quality ingredients and legal labor with a full compliment of benefits including health care.. the other bakery might use the cheapest ingredients he can find and employ undocumented labor with no benefits including no health insurance.  Baker one struggles to make it.. and eventually goes out of business because he is constantly being undercut on price by the cheater down the street, and, when he goes out of business he takes himself and employees off the health insurance plan.. but the cheater down the street.. he stays in business.. doesn't contribute to the benefit of anyone but himself.. and what do you think the chances are he is understating his sales to reduce his tax obligation?

So, just being honest Blues.. or anyone else.. which is a better system?  Which system will be more stable and create a better environment for people to live and raise families?  BTW.. the above examples are real.. not made up.. but something that is playing out right now two blocks from me.

[Blues Fairy]

too much competition might cause someone to cheat and use inferior quality ingredients or some other form of cheating.  The net result.. when you walk into ANY bakery in France you can be sure you are going to get a similar quality product.  (...)

So, just being honest Blues.. or anyone else.. which is a better system?  Which system will be more stable and create a better environment for people to live and raise families?

I suspect that enforcing quality standards is not the primary driver in this over-regulated system.  Any regulations severely limiting competition will inevitably protect the income of monopolist manufacturers providing inferior service for higher price.  Any producer who finds ways to optimize production and offer more competitive price will get busted by the regulator at the expense of the consumer.  I would rather live in a society which provides equal opportunity for all aspiring bakers, butchers and candlestick makers, and allows the consumer to be the decision maker, while enforcing the standards of business honesty and transparency.  

[Jooky]

I'm just browsing through here today and I usually avoid these pointless political discussions, but I have to respond here.

Sculpto buddy, employing undocumented workers and understating sales to avoid taxes is NOT part of the "US system". That is illegal criminal activity, and can and does happen in France just as it happens here.

If this is truly happening at a bakery down the street, why don't you report it? I'm dead serious about that. You know the saying, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", right?

[Sculpto]

I suspect that enforcing quality standards is not the primary driver in this over-regulated system.  Any regulations severely limiting competition will inevitably protect the income of monopolist manufacturers providing inferior service for higher price.  Any producer who finds ways to optimize production and offer more competitive price will get busted by the regulator at the expense of the consumer.  I would rather live in a society which provides equal opportunity for all aspiring bakers, butchers and candlestick makers, and allows the consumer to be the decision maker, while enforcing the standards of business honesty and transparency.  

Ahh.. perhaps Sandro can explain "certificate of origin" as I know the concept but can not explain it very well.  But, one of the things I love about the EU is the idea that real quality standards can be established and adhered to.  It reduces consumer complaint and insures a certain level of fairness in the market place. 

here is another example for you Blues.. right here in the USA manufacturers of high end kitchen appliances like sub zero or viking etc.. do not want the retail vendors to cut each others throats with excessive discounting, so, they have what the call "UMRP" Universal Manufacturer Retail Price.  What that means is it doesn't matter which appliance retailer you go to to buy the new dishwasher, they are all going to have the same bottom line price, discounted from MSRP.  The difference is only in the service you get from a particular retailer.  I explain this to my clients allt he time, and, have an appliance guy that I recommend.  I use him not because i get favors or kickbacks or anything like that, but, because I explained to him my very high standards of customer service and of the different vendors that come to me constantly to pitch their stores, only this one was willing to agree to my specifications AND follow through, consistently, time after time over a period of years.  So, now I am loyal to him and vice versa.  I am so loyal that if a client chooses NOT to use my guy I require a disclaimer from the client because I will not be responsible for mistakes caused by other trades.  Wow, seems like a lot of hassle just for a dishwasher doesn't it?  Well, guess what, it has to be!  The cabinet companies refuse to be responsible if the dishwasher doesn't fit, and the appliance companies refuse to standardize their dimensions and install specs to conform to cabinet standards!  So, why should I have to be responsible?  I am not selling the item!  I didn't make profit from it!  Yet, there is an expectation that I will "handle" it.  So, then open up for example the specs on a certain well known brand and discover that the spec book doesn't correspond with the actual item.  Take it one step further and learn that the design engineer at corp headquarters doesn't know that there is a inconsistency between the product being delivered and the printed specs!  Force additional research and everyone learns that the factory in China made some kind of manufacturing change that was never documented and all of a sudden there are thousands of $6000 fridges on the market that are headed for a train wreck when they get delivered.

Did the well known appliance company compensate me for discovering and correcting THEIR error which cost me an extra 15 hours and three job site visits?  NOPE!  Did my client compensate me for it?  NOPE!  Did my employer compensate me for it?  NOPE!  But if I hadn't fixed the problem I would not have gotten the referrals and I would have left a client unsatisfied. 

That is what happens in an unregulated marketplace.  And the end user can only hope that the service provider has integrity and skill to solve their problems. 

Now, why can't the same be applied to the Medical system we have in this country?

[Sculpto]

I'm just browsing through here today and I usually avoid these pointless political discussions, but I have to respond here.

Sculpto buddy, employing undocumented workers and understating sales to avoid taxes is NOT part of the "US system". That is illegal criminal activity, and can and does happen in France just as it happens here.

If this is truly happening at a bakery down the street, why don't you report it? I'm dead serious about that. You know the saying, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", right?

Oh I am sure it happens in France Jooky.. but I was using as a specific example one bakery I knew in France and two bakeries I know in SF. 

As far as these bakeries here in SF.. if someone is using undocumented labor I really don't care.  This is a sanctuary city and everyone is welcome here.  That baker might be using lower quality ingredients, but, there is nothing that says he can't do that.. there is no certificate of origin, no guild, no specific quality standard he is required to adhere to.  As far as if he is or is not paying his taxes.. well that was just speculation on my part.. I just assume if someone has chosen to use undocumented labor and pay them under the table, doesn't have a cash register and only accepts cash.. it is pretty likely he is cheating on his taxes too. 

[Ronnie]

As far as these bakeries here in SF.. if someone is using undocumented labor I really don't care.  This is a sanctuary city and everyone is welcome here.  That baker might be using lower quality ingredients, but, there is nothing that says he can't do that..

Because SF is a sanctuary city it only means the police will not report people to ICE.  It doesn't mean employers may avoid employment regulations.  Cheating happens and when it's reported and investigated,  hopefully cheaters are fined and brought into compliance.  Free enterprise cannot work when people won't follow the rules.  Can you imagine a chess game where one player decides he can move his pieces where he wants regardless of the rules?  In such chaos, free markets cannot operate.  Many people have the misconception that free markets means no rules.  Not true, except in the underworld and I'm told even those dirt bags have to develop an honor code of sorts in order to keep from killing each other off.

A lot of misunderstanding and misconceptions come from a failure to define the terms being spoken.

[Jooky]

You can't compare what happens legally in France to what happens illegally here. There's no logic to that whatsoever.

You state that this bakery's use of illegal labor is problem causing unfair competition. You say this is a problem but your excuse to doing nothing is: "I don't care". Who should care? Government big brother guilds? Sorry dude, but your attitude really disturbs me.

As for low quality ingredients, if you don't like the bread, don't buy it. I don't buy Wonder bread. I think it's crap. Some people like it, they can buy it. Crap bread DOES exist in France. It exists in Spain. It exists all over Europe and the rest of the world. I've had crap bread in France for all their guilds and regulations.

If the bread in these bakeries you're complaining about was so awful, they would be out of business. Someone must like this low quality bread, and at that someone is given the choice to buy or not buy. People eat at McDonald's not just because of the cheap prices. They actually enjoy the crappy food. I enjoy having the choice.

Maybe you'd like to live in a country where the government watches and controls your every move and tells you what you can or can't eat. I don't. I can go out in the cold and I don't need my mommy around to make sure I wear my jacket.

[Blues Fairy]

That is what happens in an unregulated marketplace.  And the end user can only hope that the service provider has integrity and skill to solve their problems.  

Now, why can't the same be applied to the Medical system we have in this country?

Sculpto, who do you think should regulate how the dishwashers fit the cabinets, and how the specs of the appliances fit the parameters of said appliances?  The government?    Then write to your Congressman and ask that a special Appliance Czars be instituted at the State and Federal level, with considerable staff to enforce the regulations, and a special tax be levied to finance this new bureaucratic machine.  Of course, the tax should be imposed upon the rich, i.e. small business owners like yourself and your partners, so you could translate the cost to your client.  I'm pretty sure the intervention of the regulator will do little to alleviate the discrepancies, but your client will be beyond himself with joy seeing how additional regulation makes him feel more secure and taken care of.  

[Sculpto]

Sculpto, who do you think should regulate how the dishwashers fit the cabinets, and how the specs of the appliances fit the parameters of said appliances?  The government?    Then write to your Congressman and ask that a special Appliance Czars be instituted at the State and Federal level, with considerable staff to enforce the regulations, and a special tax be levied to finance this new bureaucratic machine.  Of course, the tax should be imposed upon the rich, i.e. small business owners like yourself and your partners, so you could translate the cost to your client.  I'm pretty sure the intervention of the regulator will do little to alleviate the discrepancies, but your client will be beyond himself with joy seeing how additional regulation makes him feel more secure and taken care of.  

LOL Hilarious.  No, but some industry standards would be really appreciated. 

[Lily]

Really, I am scared of Canadian healthcare. Today I received an email from a Torontonian medical specialist of Russian ancestry, who immigrated about 10 years ago, and considers her return back to Russia. Here is what she writes to me (my translation):

" Medicine is the foremost issue that makes me think of leaving Canada for Russia. Just to make it short. In 2000, I gave birth to a daughter, Ceasar schnitt, they in Canada sewed up my skin in a terrible way, having interrupted my vessels and lymphatic ducts, this resulted in absceding parametritis, the abscess repeats 1 to 4 yimes a year, and they never bursted it, letting it burst by itself. I cannot even think of such measures in Russia. My friend is Doctor of hynecology in Russia< and she told me she has never seen and heard of it. In Russia, they in similar cases should include bursting, desinfection, antibyotics, abolishing of abscess, injection of cicatrizer, and patient would never had it again. But this is in Russia, not here in Canada. Now for 9 years of these self burstung I have a vaginal fistula, the permanent treatment of antibyitics and anaestetics resulted in reastive pancreatitis, now I have pains as reaction to any medicine, and my abscess still persists! 11 times I passed through flora smear when the abscess bursted, with pus, the Canadian doctors told always the same: everything is in order, no honococcus or trychomonads detected! That was it! My flora even was not in question. They don't care about immune forces, or its improvement.  A neibour of me had a cervical prolapsus, and a partial vaginal prolapsus. Doctors told her that they will fix it when it falls out completely, or when it will bleed, but now she should only help herself with her hands, just to put all it back with her hands, wear compressive panties. Her gynecologist is Chinese. Another example. A 38 old woman underwent treatment in order to be able to bear a child, and received an ovulation stimulator every month during 2,5 years! To me it was just obvious that doctors are going to bring her up to an extracorporal fertilization against big money. The uteral myomas in Canada grow up till bleeding and operation, if a woman insists, doctors prescribe lots of hormons. Generally, if you get a virus based cold, doctors prescribe strong antibyotics for 10 days, to avoid complications, as they say. As people are not aware of side effects from them, they take it!"

Comments?

[Ronnie]

Something strange happens when a person, of any profession moves from private industry to government employment.  In private industry, the employee understands that the customer/client/patient is the source of their compensation in a direct way and if they are not seen as giving good service, the customer can take his/her business to a competitor.  So competition is not about price alone, it is more about improving quality.  Most private firms in America preach to their sales people that they should not sell based on price but upon rendering unsurpassed quality of service which will justify most any price.

Too many people, especially those with no experience in private industry (think white house and congress) don't understand this principle.

Anyway back to the individual who moves into government work.  The person who should be considered the customer, now become the adversary or a mere number on the "now serving" board.  DMV in California actually post signs telling the "customers" that it is a violation of the law to verbally abuse a DMV employee.  It makes me wonder, why such a sign would be necessary in a government office.  I have never seen such a sign in any private company.

Perish the thought that the many caring doctors and nurses in the U.S. should become like DMV employees protected from complaints by civil service status.  What a nightmare that would be.

[ECOCKS]

...DMV in California actually post signs telling the "customers" that it is a violation of the law to verbally abuse a DMV employee.  It makes me wonder, why such a sign would be necessary in a government office.  I have never seen such a sign in any private company.

Probably because it isn't against the law to "verbally abuse" private industry workers in the context of private enterprise.

Some people do tend to treat government workers as servants rather than other people though. While the stereotype of a civil service worker with a romance novel in the top shelf drawer is widely recognized, there are equivalents in the private sector. It's just easier to get rid of them in the private sector than it is to fight a firing through the civil service review boards. Too much paperwork.

[Misha]

Comments?

I know many women who have had c-sections in Canada without suffering any undue problems. It is a pretty routine procedure, though one could say at times too routine (doctor's are sometimes too fast to recommend a c-section, but that is another debate). However, if you expect everything to be done exactly as they would do it in Russia, then better to stay in Russia  Likewise, I would not move to Russia, the United States or anywhere expecting things to be exactly as they are in Canada.

[Misha]

Perish the thought that the many caring doctors and nurses in the U.S. should become like DMV employees protected from complaints by civil service status.  What a nightmare that would be.

The more I read, the less that I would want to live in the United States  I don't have any complaints about our public servants in Canada. Even at our equivalent of the DMV, they are polite, friendly and helpful, and the lines are rarely that bad (the only exception was when the United States started requiring that all Canadians have a passport when traveling to the USA and this resulted in horribly long lines at passport offices).

[Lily]

I know many women who have had c-sections in Canada without suffering any undue problems. It is a pretty routine procedure, though one could say at times too routine (doctor's are sometimes too fast to recommend a c-section, but that is another debate). However, if you expect everything to be done exactly as they would do it in Russia, then better to stay in Russia  Likewise, I would not move to Russia, the United States or anywhere expecting things to be exactly as they are in Canada.

The woman who I quoted indeed contemplates returning back to Russia. She seems to be concerned that Canadian ways of treatment would deteriorate her health.

My question to this woman would then be why life expectance in Canada is that longer than in Russia, if Russian surgeons are better than Canadian...

[Misha]

The woman who I quoted indeed contemplates returning back to Russia. She seems to be concerned that Canadian ways of treatment would deteriorate her health.

To be honest, such people should be one the first flight back to Moscow and should stay there. However, she never will leave. Such immigrants will whine about how bad things are in Canada and how things are soooooo much better in Russia, while of course staying and still benefiting from all the advantages that our country has to offer  I have to say, whiny immigrants annoy me. If things were as bad as they describe, logically they would have left already. But, as they stay and whine, my only conclusion being that they do so as a way to somehow up their status.

My question to this woman would then be why life expectance in Canada is that longer than in Russia, if Russian surgeons are better than Canadian...

It would be interesting to know what she answers.

[Blues Fairy]

My question to this woman would then be why life expectance in Canada is that longer than in Russia, if Russian surgeons are better than Canadian...

Perhaps because alcoholism and fatal car accidents are not treated with surgery?