Ladies, are you receiving better healthcare in the United States?

[mies]

Besides, you seem to completely misunderstand how insurance system works if you think that the insurance company gets paid for nothing.  It covers your risks and calculates your premiums based on the probability of your expenses.  In the same way, you pay a flat monthly fee for a telephone service though you might not use the phone as much in any given month and a bit more than usual the next month.  The fee covers the median cost of usage, plus overhead, plus profit.  Making profit is NOT a crime in a free society.

actually - I do know how insurance system works. I also know such words as "probability", "likelihood", "expected value", "risk premium" and so on. Thank you for trying to educate me though. :-)

[Ronnie]

Maybe this is so in other countries.  It is not so in the health care reform being discussed now in Congress.  If you make statements such as you do above please make them from a position of knowledge.  I will let the following link refute many of your fantasies:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124580516633344953.html

The article you cited was written by a hard-core collectivist Robert Reich and before anyone knew what would be in it.  Nevertheless, the article does not address anything Blues Fairy wrote. 

Can you please find an article supportive of the bill, written with knowledge of it's contents?

[mies]

America was founded on the idea that liberty means a very small role for government and that the individual is free to choose the course of his life.  He's free to refuse medical care and therefore insurance. 

The health care bill that Mr. Obama wants us to accept (the one he hasn't read), contains many abuses of an individual's freedom.  There is a fine of $2,500 annual on any person who refuses to buy health insurance.  There is mandatory counseling for people over 65, the purpose of which is to convince them they have lived their lives and now it's time to go gently into the night, therefore they will not be given any treatment that costs the government too much money.  And when you are a senior collecting a government pension or social security or both, your early demise would be deemed very patriotic indeed.  BTW, this is how Obama will solve the Social Security crisis.  As he said recently, "sometimes you just have to go with the pain pills."  Unbelievable!

So, apart from subjecting ourselves and our children to soviet-style tyranny, let's consider the wisdom of designating as the sole guardian of our health, someone who has strong incentive to see us die the minute we leave the workforce. 
 

the document you quote is very different from the soviet "tyranny". One thing is asking about socialized healthcare in general. Another thing - asking about particular document. I have not read this bill, and I do not comment on the documents I have not read in original.

[Blues Fairy]

Bobb, before you accuse other people (me, in this case) of lack of knowledge, you have yet to present a well-supported argument of your own; so far except accusations of ignorance I have not seen anything of substance from you.  The WSJ article you quote is full of nonsense, written by former Clinton's Labor Secretary, and contradicts all official opinion polls and simple logic.  I'm sick of hearing that govt. option is just an option, not a takeover.  How are the commercial businesses supposed to compete with a public program that does not have to turn profit???

[Sculpto]

, let's consider the wisdom of designating as the sole guardian of our health, someone who has strong incentive to see us die the minute we leave the workforce. 

You just described the insurance companies.  You of all people Ronnie, I can not believe you support these criminals.  I am disgusted, but, unfortunately not surprised.

[Ronnie]

The original question is an interesting one.  I suppose I should have known the topic starter would get to his real agenda later on in the discussion.

And Bob B, what is that agenda?  You wouldn't be "speculating" now would you?  Honestly, you're as clueless on current events as you were on dating when you made your first failed trip to Belarus.

[Ronnie]

You just described the insurance companies.  You of all people Ronnie, I can not believe you support these criminals.  I am disgusted, but, unfortunately not surprised.

Free enterprise and the effects of market competition that work for the good of the consumer always disgust the artist who can't understand why the world doesn't beat a path to his doorstep.  You will not find employment spending 16 hours a day on RWD, Eric.

[Admin]

And Bob B, what is that agenda?  You wouldn't be "speculating" now would you?  Honestly, you're as clueless on current events as you were on dating when you made your first failed trip to Belarus.

Ronnie - I have no clue how you tie in another member's trip to Belarus to this particular topic.

You will also note that I removed the last name you posted. I do not know that you have permission to post it or that it has been posted by that RWD member elsewhere. If I am wrong, feel free to send me a PM.

Keep things civil please - and keep it thematic to RWD.

- Dan

[Sculpto]

Free enterprise and the effects of market competition that work for the good of the consumer always disgust the artist who can't understand why the world doesn't beat a path to his doorstep.  You will not find employment spending 16 hours a day on RWD, Eric.

Ronnie.. the insurance companies are not doing anything good for the consumer and to even make such a statement proves how far out of reality you are.  And, since you chose to resort to making a very stupid personal comment.. I am on a dozen or more sites all day long, answering calls, making calls, calling in favors that are owed from a long time and especially anything related to STARTING A BUSINESS from scratch with limited resources.  Somehow, I don't think you have ANY clue what that is really about.

One of the things I am doing all day long is getting the INSURANCE COMPANY to PAY for the services I paid them for for the last 19 months.  Funny how they are fast to call you if you are a day late with your payment, but, they find a million reasons to delay paying out when they ARE REQUIRED TO DO SO BY LAW.  The games being played by the insurance companies in my case have given me no choice but to hire an attorney so that I can be sure that I am not put into real financial jeopardy because a stupid young lady was talking on her cell phone instead of watching the traffic signals, ran a red light at 40mph and destroyed my car.  Oh, and by the way, the pain in my neck has not improved at all and I have not had a decent nights sleep in over three weeks, thanks for asking.

But thanks once again for proving your limited perspective and destructive value system.  You are a real citizen of the world, yes indeed, just the kind of people that make the world friendlier and a better place to live.   All for Ronnie and screw everyone else.

[Faux Pas]

Blues.. you sound very idealistic.. but in the wrong way.  Try owning a business and see if you feel the same way afterwards. 

If we continue on with what we have now the health insurance companies will suck the entire nation dry until there is nothing left.  They will (are already) make the scam the banks pulled look like nothing.

Puleeze. And you are so confident that government run healthcare won't do the same thing?

[Sculpto]

Puleeze. And you are so confident that government run healthcare won't do the same thing?

Look at the French model.  Thats what we should be doing.  It works really well there.  The German model is pretty impressive also. 

There is precedent and a methodology to do it right. 

[Lily]

Dears, the posts of bobb, Blues Fairy and Ronnie on the previous page made me alert of soon-to-be emotions that are less than desired. Sort like a balancing on the edge of what is allowable and what is not.

Please watch what you are saying, and choose the words. Thank you!

[Ronnie]

Dan, I didn't realize I had typed Bob B's last name out in full.  I was headed out the door on an errand and didn't proof read my post.  I sincerely apologize to him and to you. 

I think I've given up on hoping Bob will join a discussion I'm participating in and make a positive statement about anything or refute with some substance.  He seems to enjoy stalking, jumping in, taking a personal jab and running back in the bushes until his next opportunity.  I'm not sure what his problem is beyond what he, himself manifests.  At least Eric says something in between the name calling.

[Faux Pas]

Look at the French model.  Thats what we should be doing.  It works really well there.  The German model is pretty impressive also. 

There is precedent and a methodology to do it right. 

There's a lot of other models to look at too but I noticed you didn't mention those. We're not French nor German and we're talking about a significantly bigger populous. Our government isn't capable of running a national healthcare system. We already have the best healthcare available in the world. The system sucks and is way too expensive. If it is too improve it won't be by a government run system but, a system completely free of government intervention. Reform is definitely in order but if you think reform comes in the form of government takeover, you are mistaken.

[Sculpto]

There's a lot of other models to look at too but I noticed you didn't mention those. We're not French nor German and we're talking about a significantly bigger populous. Our government isn't capable of running a national healthcare system. We already have the best healthcare available in the world. The system sucks and is way too expensive. If it is too improve it won't be by a government run system but, a system completely free of government intervention. Reform is definitely in order but if you think reform comes in the form of government takeover, you are mistaken.

Faux.. did you read the articles?  There is very little actual government involvement in either one.. the systems are basically self regulating. 

[Blues Fairy]

Look at the French model.  Thats what we should be doing.  It works really well there.  The German model is pretty impressive also.  There is precedent and a methodology to do it right. 

French health care system is nearly bankrupt and the share of taxes in the economy is 40%.  Besides, doctors are starting to refuse to operate within the government fee structure because it does not cover the cost of most treatments.  Middle-class cannot or doesn't want to purchase additional insurance, because they are used to services being free.  The share of out-of-pocket expenses is growing and the policy makers threaten to limit national coverage to people with chronic conditions. So please don't tell us stories about how good French health care is; they are right on track to more American-looking system.  

[Faux Pas]

Faux.. did you read the articles?  There is very little actual government involvement in either one.. the systems are basically self regulating. 

Those articles no, I didn't. I don't need to but, I have read of them in the past. Sculpt if you think even for a second you'll have a government healthcare system that isn't run by the government you are really delusional. You currently have an option for poor, mediocre and great healthcare. With a government run system your only option is going to be the poor option, pre-packaged and pretty much one size fits all. Private healthcare will be forced out of business. Is this what you really want?

[bobb]

You wouldn't be "speculating" now would you? 

Ronnie, I thought your question a very good question.  In a later post you seemed to change the discussion:

Do you think that going to socialized medicine would improve the quality of American healthcare?

That should be an entirely separate topic.  Was it speculation on my part?  Maybe somewhat, but why make that particular post in this thread, rather than start a new one.  I will admit the question is somewhat related, but it opened the door to a politically related discussion and away from experiences.  After that post it seemed this post degenerated into a discussion of the proposed health care proposal in Congress.  Then all of a sudden the topic has changed and we get everyone's speculation.  I refuse to offer my personal opinions on issues such as this because they are a waste of time.  Why debate about something that is not going to change anyone's mind on the subject at this site?

Rest assured I will never 'jump' into any of these stupid discussions again.   

[ECOCKS]

"You have to be really making good money in USA if you want to buy same quality apartment before you are 35."

Again, I don't know where a statement like this comes from. I'm not particularly plugged in to the under 35 segment of the population but hundreds of thousands of them have houses the size you are talking about or larger. My unmarried, 28 year old son just bought an 1800 sq. ft. (roughly 165 sq. m.), 4BR, 3BA, multilevel home in downtown Baltimore. A couple who are close friends bought the home across the street from him last December. The people across the street from my home are a couple in their early 30's and probably owned a home before this one. I purchased my first home when I was 26. This statement is just flat wrong.

As for quality of construction, I see no comparison with standards between the FSU and North America. Small, cramped rooms, plumbing that has to be periodically shut down for maintenance for weeks at a time each year, extremely poor quality concrete, limited bathroom designs, tiny balconies, woefully insufficient electrical outlet availability, no AC, inconsistent heating, elevators the size of phone booths, crumbling concrete, rotted window frames and door assemblies - all of these are the norm. Then consider land and garages. Simply better quality home construction might well add a measurable amount of time to average life expectancy in FSU countries.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie.. the insurance companies are not doing anything good for the consumer and to even make such a statement proves how far out of reality you are.  And, since you chose to resort to making a very stupid personal comment.. I am on a dozen or more sites all day long, answering calls, making calls, calling in favors that are owed from a long time and especially anything related to STARTING A BUSINESS from scratch with limited resources.  Somehow, I don't think you have ANY clue what that is really about.

One of the things I am doing all day long is getting the INSURANCE COMPANY to PAY for the services I paid them for for the last 19 months.  Funny how they are fast to call you if you are a day late with your payment, but, they find a million reasons to delay paying out when they ARE REQUIRED TO DO SO BY LAW.  The games being played by the insurance companies in my case have given me no choice but to hire an attorney so that I can be sure that I am not put into real financial jeopardy because a stupid young lady was talking on her cell phone instead of watching the traffic signals, ran a red light at 40mph and destroyed my car.  Oh, and by the way, the pain in my neck has not improved at all and I have not had a decent nights sleep in over three weeks, thanks for asking.

But thanks once again for proving your limited perspective and destructive value system.  You are a real citizen of the world, yes indeed, just the kind of people that make the world friendlier and a better place to live.   All for Ronnie and screw everyone else.

Eric,

I'm very sorry to hear about your accident and that you were injured.  I teach my wife to be extra cautious at intersections.  There has been a study that shows that cell phone and CD players cause as much if not more vehicular accidents that alcohol.

Let's take your situation as a case study. A few things jump out at me.  First, you can sue the insurance company for any action by the insurance company that you feel is wrong.  In Canada and England you can't sue when the NHS refuses to properly treat you or treat you at all.  I not sure what you're sueing about, you've been vague on that, but it it happened just 3 weeks ago, it would seem a bit early to file a complaint.  Thank the free market for the right to sue and our constituionally provided jury system for the right to be have the matter heard by peers and not a government bureaucrat.  Are you suing your health company, car insurance company or her car insurance company?

Back to the health care question, it is easy to make the argument that everyone is entitled to certain basic things in life.  While I don't agree in entitlement as a policy because of the harmful effects it has on society and the individual, I agree that there are times that people fall upon hard times.  This is the reason I want to see our government put tariffs on imports that will incourage investment in our own plants and factories.  The work may not be rocket science, but let's face reality, many of us are not rocket scientists and never will be.  Some of use need to earn our daily bread by the sweat of our brow.  Those who so labor, should receive proper value for the time and effor they put forth.  They should be valued and today they are not valued, they are told that society and government has failed them, so society and government should pay for their needs.

But what about those times when we are in between jobs?  We've all been there and many will be there.  Such temporary conditions account for the majority of the uninsured right now.  The majority of people who don't have a job with insurance coverage WILL have a job with insurance in the near future.  A greater availability of jobs (tariffs on imports) and a labor pool not flooded with temporary (H-B1 and illegal) workers, will provide the best form of welfare for our good citizens who must labor with their hands.

I asked this question about the quality of health vs where the ladies came from to hear their comments.  If you read the play by Eugene O'Neill, "A Long Day's Journey into Night" there are references to father getting health care on the cheap for his family.  When it comes to doctors, everyone deserves the highest quality.  Cost is not an issue when family's health is in jeopardy.  I don't expect to be around much longer, but I do expect my children and grandchildren to enjoy the highest quality of healthcare and personal liberty that I have been blessed with.  Yes, for me it's personal and it should be for each and every citizen and resident of this country.  If there is a better quality system elsewhere, let's find out what makes it's successful and try to improve what we have with incremental adjustments. 

[Ronnie]

Here's an interesting article that concerns certain myths about American healthcare.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9981

[bobb]

If there is a better quality system elsewhere, let's find out what makes it's successful and try to improve what we have with incremental adjustments. 

A sound statement.  I think many feel there are a lot of people who just don't want to see any changes.

A good article in the current Newsweek talks about some of the failings in the current bill and brings up alternative issues we should be considering.  It is neither pro nor con and is a very interesting article.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/207410

[Sculpto]

Eric,

I'm very sorry to hear about your accident and that you were injured.  I teach my wife to be extra cautious at intersections.  There has been a study that shows that cell phone and CD players cause as much if not more vehicular accidents that alcohol.

Let's take your situation as a case study. A few things jump out at me.  First, you can sue the insurance company for any action by the insurance company that you feel is wrong.  In Canada and England you can't sue when the NHS refuses to properly treat you or treat you at all.  I not sure what you're sueing about, you've been vague on that, but it it happened just 3 weeks ago, it would seem a bit early to file a complaint.  Thank the free market for the right to sue and our constituionally provided jury system for the right to be have the matter heard by peers and not a government bureaucrat.  Are you suing your health company, car insurance company or her car insurance company?

Back to the health care question, it is easy to make the argument that everyone is entitled to certain basic things in life.  While I don't agree in entitlement as a policy because of the harmful effects it has on society and the individual, I agree that there are times that people fall upon hard times.  This is the reason I want to see our government put tariffs on imports that will incourage investment in our own plants and factories.  The work may not be rocket science, but let's face reality, many of us are not rocket scientists and never will be.  Some of use need to earn our daily bread by the sweat of our brow.  Those who so labor, should receive proper value for the time and effor they put forth.  They should be valued and today they are not valued, they are told that society and government has failed them, so society and government should pay for their needs.

But what about those times when we are in between jobs?  We've all been there and many will be there.  Such temporary conditions account for the majority of the uninsured right now.  The majority of people who don't have a job with insurance coverage WILL have a job with insurance in the near future.  A greater availability of jobs (tariffs on imports) and a labor pool not flooded with temporary (H-B1 and illegal) workers, will provide the best form of welfare for our good citizens who must labor with their hands.

I asked this question about the quality of health vs where the ladies came from to hear their comments.  If you read the play by Eugene O'Neill, "A Long Day's Journey into Night" there are references to father getting health care on the cheap for his family.  When it comes to doctors, everyone deserves the highest quality.  Cost is not an issue when family's health is in jeopardy.  I don't expect to be around much longer, but I do expect my children and grandchildren to enjoy the highest quality of healthcare and personal liberty that I have been blessed with.  Yes, for me it's personal and it should be for each and every citizen and resident of this country.  If there is a better quality system elsewhere, let's find out what makes it's successful and try to improve what we have with incremental adjustments. 

it shouldnt even be an issue Ronnie.  Right now I am incurring medical bills that the other drivers insurance company will be forced to pay.  To make sure that those payments are made I felt I had no choice but to hire legal representation because my insurance company washed their hands and her insurance company obfuscated and provided conflicting information.  My insurance company is overstating the mileage on the car because the battery melted and thye cant get the digital odometer to power up, costing me several hundred in the settlement.  It just goes on and on.. they are perfectly happy to take your money but when it comes time for them to provide the service they were paid to provide they find all kinds of ways of getting out of payment.  

I should not have to beg to go to the doctor.  It should not even be a question.  I should not have to feel the stress of "what if they don't pay" or "what if my neck NEVER heals and I am NEVER able to work with power tools again".  This if freaking BS in a deep way and there is one person and two corporations and a messed up set of rules that are at fault.  All I did was drive slowly across an intersection with a green light.

So yeah.. your insurance companies are real real good.  I trust those basically unregulated corporations to make sure MY health and MY life are returned to some semblance of normalcy.  

[Sculpto]

France and Germany both have better systems but I don't see Ronnie willing to debate them.. why?  Because he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Going about it incrementally isnt bad.. as long as it doesnt create loopholes and opportunities for fraud. 

[Ronnie]

Eric..now you're sounding like a victim.  Yes you are a victim..no doubt about it.  But to sound like one...well, let's just say that the size of your problem may pale in comparison to those others may have.  As they say in poker, it's not the cards you're dealt but how you play the cards that determines who wins and who loses.

 By the way, California highly regulates insurance companies.  Some companies have been driven out of our state due to the hassles the states puts them through.  This is limiting the competition and driving up premiums.  Regulation costs money and that is reflected in the high costs.  Another thing that is reflected in the high costs in California is auto theft and fraud which seem to run especially in "sanctuary cities." like SF and LA.  Emergency rooms in those cities are flooded with people with routine illnesses and it's adding to the cost of health care for everyone.