suggestions

[XMan]

Good afternoon,

I have been to Russia several times, Ukraine twice (Kharkov and Chernivtsi). 

I tried the sort of generic agency approach, meet one woman and have backup, corresponded for about 4 months before traveling.  It did work, sort of.  End the end she got cold feet and I could not warm them.  (I think she was caught up in the romanticism of it and then reality sank in.)

I tried the shotgun, meet as many women as possible on my own approach.  Corresponded briefly, then got on a plane.  That was dismal.  Perhaps because it did not fit my personality well.

I tried the more "high-end" agency approach most recently.  Agency was attentive, listened to what I was saying, was friendly, helpful, good service, but of course expensive.  In the end the woman I was most interested in did not feel similarly.  Sic vita est.

So I'm 46, nearly 3 years into this, and feel the clock is ticking. 
I've focused on very late 20's to mid-30's.  I'd still like to have a family or would consider older I suppose. 

I realize you can't rush this.  But, is this 3 year stint without success "normal?"  I don't have unlimited time or resources, unfortunately.

As far as suggestions (the subject title of this post), wondering is someone has an agency and location in the Ukraine they might recommend.  I think Russia is out for me.  I got so hassled when leaving the last 2 visits that I really did not want to return.  (Guys pursuing bribes for imaginary paperwork when I was trying to leave the airport, for example.  This ever happen to anyone else?)  Besides, no Visa needed for the Ukraine.

I want to stick with one town, not travel to multiple cities in one trip. 
I don't want to be jerked around by an agency.
I want to be realistic.

Thanks.

[ECOCKS]

Just because something works for one person doesn't mean it will work for everyone. You mention that the group trips didn't fit your personality so you are right on track with that. The only thing from what you wrote that you might need to change is to develop a few more relationships long distance (while being honest) and go into the intial trip over with a larger group to look over. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right and spending some time and energy getting to your goal.

Sounds like your frustration is leading you towards far more serious planning which is probably a good thing. Pick your town (I suggest Kyiv) and decide how you're going to make contacts. Will you use the tried and true EM? Freepersonals? Whatever. Set up some serious long-term mail relationships, transition to voice (Skype, YIM, whatever works best) and keep your anti-scam/BS radar turned on. Apply the filters that you pick up from here. Then setup your trips with an agenda of meeting and further exploring those distance relationships. That's pretty much the basic system.

If you follow the basic commandments, stay realistic, are honest and explore serious topics, you should get a qualified group which is worth the effort. It is really not that much different from the concepts you use in dating around your home turf - look for likely women, explore them with conversations and gradually progress closer to your goal of finding someone with whom you are truly compatible.

Bets of Luck!

[groovlstk]

The "best" method for meeting and falling in love is the one that works for you.  Sorry if that sounds silly without being helpful, but there is little commonality among how married guys found their wives. Some did it through agencies, some through friends, some through Russian dating sites, some through chat clients. I think the key is to simply stick with whatever method is most comfortable for you.

I realize you can't rush this.  But, is this 3 year stint without success "normal?"  I don't have unlimited time or resources, unfortunately.

How many trips were you able to make during these three years? If you can only do one per year, you may be doing this for a long time (right, Al_C? ). I met my wife on my 10th trip (or around there). Some found theirs on their first trip. There's no way to speed things along. Thankfully you seem grounded enough that you're not going to take unecessary risks by proposing to a virtual stranger, as many fools in this pursuit do.

[XMan]

6 trips in 3 years. 
About every 6 months is probably the best I can manage.

[Faux Pas]

Xman,

These things can't be forced in the FSU anymore than they can be at home. You've made 6 trips already. Seems that you should be comfortable enough to do it on your own by now. You don't need an agency.

You stated you want to be realistic. Are you really being realistic with the previous ladies you chose? Most everyone hopes to trade up from previous relationship but in this pursuit many more times often than not, the leap is just far to  for realistic expectations and a happy ending. Are you pursuing the same quality woman you would be at home with realistic age ranges?

A couple of trips a year is probably higher than average and should be ample. With the internet, email, skype and chat softwares communication in between trips isn't a problem.

I would suggest you sign up with Elena's Models and start communicating with some realistic ladies you'd like to build a future with. If you go for English speaking women, you won't need a translator and direct communication sounds like something that could be of benefit to you. Quit "wife shopping" and find women to communicate with and let relationships develop.

You also said you want a family. At 46 you might be trying to hit that runway a little late unless you find a woman with children. Reading between the lines (please correct me if I am wrong) You've dated some young child bearing age hotties and each time you're left holding the bag and wondering what went wrong? Something to remember, if you are old enough to be her father or close to being old enough, "most" women have a problem with that. Yes, it happens. Some guys go over and find some treasures 25 years younger but, that is the exception and not the rule.

You say you want realistic, it needs to start with you.

Out of curiosity, what troubles did you have trying to leave Russia? I've made more trip than you and haven't had one incident.

[XMan]

I would say the women I selected were average to above average. I was looking for a woman who already had a child (if possible). 

I wasn't talking about 25 years younger.  More along the lines of 12-15.  Reasonable, I think, as I know some AM/AW couples in that range (and larger in 2 cases).  I'm an uber-health guy who works out 6 days a week. I probably fall into the average to above average range (who can really judge themselves accurately?), and in the far above average as far as being in shape. 

So when I say realistic, I guess it is in my view. 

Per the Russian experience, the last two trips they tried to hold me up because I didn't have "tourist papers."  Trust me, I had exactly what I was supposed to have.  Eventually I got on the plane without paying a bribe.  But only after I was put in a room for an hour and questioned by 3 different people who barely spoke enough English to communicate.  "You have no tourist papers, this is a big problem."  Uh, sure it is.  I had my passport, Visa, and the document you fill out on the plane and get stamped in order to enter the country.  The second time this happened I finally said, "Look, I'm going to miss my plane.  I'm getting on the plane now.  Or you can arrest me for something."  Stupid perhaps, but I was tired and pissed off.  I got in line, checked my bags, got on the plane.  That's when I decided the Ukraine might be friendlier.

[Sculpto]

 
Per the Russian experience, the last two trips they tried to hold me up because I didn't have "tourist papers."  Trust me, I had exactly what I was supposed to have.  Eventually I got on the plane without paying a bribe.  But only after I was put in a room for an hour and questioned by 3 different people who barely spoke enough English to communicate.  "You have no tourist papers, this is a big problem."  Uh, sure it is.  I had my passport, Visa, and the document you fill out on the plane and get stamped in order to enter the country.  The second time this happened I finally said, "Look, I'm going to miss my plane.  I'm getting on the plane now.  Or you can arrest me for something."  Stupid perhaps, but I was tired and pissed off.  I got in line, checked my bags, got on the plane.  That's when I decided the Ukraine might be friendlier.

WHAT???????????  That is really strange.  Which airport were you departing from?

[Faux Pas]

I would say the women I selected were average to above average. I was looking for a woman who already had a child (if possible). 

I wasn't talking about 25 years younger.  More along the lines of 12-15.  Reasonable, I think, as I know some AM/AW couples in that range (and larger in 2 cases).

 

For me personally, 12-15 years would be stretching it in a big way. I dated many younger AW with that kind of difference. That range is really not reasonable IMO. Think more half of that like 6-8. You will have much more in common with a lady closer to your age, AW or RW.

I'm an uber-health guy who works out 6 days a week. I probably fall into the average to above average range (who can really judge themselves accurately?), and in the far above average as far as being in shape. 

Xman, We all think or want to think we are in good health and look 10 years younger than we do but, the simple fact is we don't. We can't judge ourselves accurately. We aren't made that way. Do you remember when you were 18 and thought 30 was old as hell and you could pick out a 30 yr old? Can you pick out a 30 yr old now? Listen, you probably feel good and look good for your age. That isn't the point. It's how you are perceived by those you pursue.

So when I say realistic, I guess it is in my view.

 

Realistic needs to be more or less a consensus of everyone's view.

Per the Russian experience, the last two trips they tried to hold me up because I didn't have "tourist papers."  Trust me, I had exactly what I was supposed to have.  Eventually I got on the plane without paying a bribe.  But only after I was put in a room for an hour and questioned by 3 different people who barely spoke enough English to communicate.  "You have no tourist papers, this is a big problem."  Uh, sure it is.  I had my passport, Visa, and the document you fill out on the plane and get stamped in order to enter the country.  The second time this happened I finally said, "Look, I'm going to miss my plane.  I'm getting on the plane now.  Or you can arrest me for something."  Stupid perhaps, but I was tired and pissed off.  I got in line, checked my bags, got on the plane.  That's when I decided the Ukraine might be friendlier.

Did you register your visa after arriving? It sounds like they were looking for it. They were in all likelihood looking to shake you down for a bribe. But if you didn't register your visa after arrival it is the same thing as a sign on your back to those looking for bribes.

[groovlstk]

6 trips in 3 years. 
About every 6 months is probably the best I can manage.

This is certainly not out of the ordinary. Don't let anyone put pressure on you to do things more quickly or to make you feel as if you should be married already. This is one of the mosts important decisions of your life and it shouldn't be hurried.

It sucks that there are distance, language, and cultural issues, but maybe that's the way it should be - otherwise every guy would be doing this.

[Gator]

Xman,

You have just begun.  I married six years after my first trip.

I see many positives in your approach:

1.  It is okay to concentrate on Ukraine.  Russia's economy is doing better so you enjoy a larger economic advantage in Ukraine.

2.  Your age of 46 is not old.  UW consider men of that age to be stable.  The only problem would be if you have never been married before.  Their guideline is that "something is wrong" with a UM if he is over 40 and never married (and they apply that guideline to AM as well not knowing the difference).  However, if this is your case, one large advantage is that you have no children from a prior marriage.

3.  The target age of upper 20s to mid-30s for UW is fine.  Younger UW may not be serious about marrying and moving.  I consider the age difference of 12 -15 years as acceptable even though UW rarely marry UM with this difference.  I typically dated RW with an age disparity of 20-25 years from mine (and married with an even larger gap) and most (but not all) were accepting of the difference, although it required serious discussions about the future as a relationship developed.

4.  The level of beauty you selected ("above average") is better than if you chased only 9s and 10s who can be spoiled.

5.  Preferring a woman with a child will open many doors that are now ignored by most men.  You will probably have 3X the number of women to choose from, and your interest in children will endear you to the many women who had a bad experience with the father of her child.  This raises some other issues, yet none are surmountable.

[Gator]

If you are looking for one city, I would suggest Dnepropetrovsk.  There are three agencies there (look at Cindy).  Nearby is Kharkov if you need access to more women, yet Dnepro IMO was more interesting to visit even if smaller.

The Kiev women are interesting, yet some men think they are not as serious about marrying or have higher expectations than their provincial sisters.  One problem - it is not easy to find English competent UW in the provinces, and they are more abundant in Kiev.

[kievstar]

My suggestion if you can take 1 year off from working than go and live in a city.  Need to put family before work. 

[GoodOlBoy]

For me personally, 12-15 years would be stretching it in a big way. I dated many younger AW with that kind of difference. That range is really not reasonable IMO. Think more half of that like 6-8. You will have much more in common with a lady closer to your age, AW or RW.

Hello XMan.

You might want to listen to Faux Pas advice here.

Of course I should not be the one that's doling out advice to you about the topic of age differences, because I have a 10.5 year age difference in my marriage.

But I will freely admit.......some days 10.5 is a stretch for me.

Of course it's your final decision, But.....You just might want to re-examine your search criteria.

Good Luck!


GOB

[Simoni]

If you are looking for one city, I would suggest Dnepropetrovsk.  There are three agencies there (look at Cindy).  Nearby is Kharkov if you need access to more women, yet Dnepro IMO was more interesting to visit even if smaller.

The Kiev women are interesting, yet some men think they are not as serious about marrying or have higher expectations than their provincial sisters.  One problem - it is not easy to find English competent UW in the provinces, and they are more abundant in Kiev.

I started to respond, and then saw this post by Gator.  He said what I was going to say.
Dnepr and the Cindy Agency worked for me, after I gave up on Elena's Models and WOVO.   Good luck!

[Faux Pas]

I started to respond, and then saw this post by Gator.  He said what I was going to say.
Dnepr and the Cindy Agency worked for me, after I gave up on Elena's Models and WOVO.   Good luck!

Xman stated he didn't like the "shotgun" WMVM and he didn't particularly like dealing with agencies. Given his somewhat frustrated demeanor, it seemed to me he might be able to use an alternative to those approaches. EMs would appear to me a viable option. He might get lucky where you didn't. 

[Misha]

Some did it through agencies, some through friends, some through Russian dating sites, some through chat clients. I think the key is to simply stick with whatever method is most comfortable for you.

Pretty much. The free Russian dating site that I used is singles.ru. If you have questions, feel free to ask. This site now has an English interface.

[XMan]

Gator -- thanks, I'll check it out.

I forget who asked, but it was Sochi, and a huge ass pain it was.  I won't be returning. 
And yes, I crossed every "T" and dotted every "i" and registered my passport, the whole song and dance. 
I didn't try to sneak a woman out in my suitcase or hide drugs in my underwear. 

I bring up the age thing up front, by the way, provide current photos, etc.  I don't know.  Seems pretty straight forward.  If a woman isn't interested due to age difference, why correspond.  If she says 35-50, or 40-55, I write.  Why not.  My colleague married an AW 26 years younger.  Will it last?  Who knows.  The average person has less than a 50% chance no matter how you slice it.  I was married for 9 years.  I certainly didn't go in thinking I would get divorced.

I don't think late 20's to mid 30's (which would be about 9-18 years) would be too drastic.  But, to each his or her own.  One of my staff married a guy 10 years younger that she actually used to baby sit years earlier.  So that's a whole new world of weird for me, but my opinion doesn't matter.  Why should it?  Works for them. 

And again, I emphasize average to above average.  I'm not talking about models or sex kittens or who knows what else.  A decent, attractive woman.  Like I said, to me, that's realistic.  If it isn't to a particular woman, I'm not holding a gun to her head to correspond or meet me.  If it isn't to other folks, well, whatever.  I grow organic food.  I like single malt scotch.  I won't force either on anyone else.

I don't want to get too hung up on the age thing.  I'm trying to find someone compatible that I can share my life with.  I assume everyone is.

I do indeed prefer a woman with a child.  I do hope it opens some other doors.  It's been a mixed bag thus far.  Unpredictable.  One woman I really liked very, very much had 2 kids, was 35, but was still so messed up by the Italian guy she had divorced a year earlier that there was just no way to move forward.  She thought she was ready.  By the 3rd meeting it was clear to me that she wasn't.  Too bad.  A lot of correspondence, 4 flights (each way) for me, a real disappointment.  But, that's life.  Another woman I met seemed a lot less mature in person than in correspondence.  She seemed really interested, but I couldn't see it after several meetings.  The University Professor I met in Kharkov was awesome, but she wasn't feeling it.  Really too bad.  We had a lot in common. 

Thanks to all for their thoughts / feedback.  I appreciate it.

[Sculpto]

Xman.. as many here already know I don't think age is as important as the emotional connection two people establish with each other.  how those dynamics work out over time when there is a large age gap entirely depends on the level of selfishness of the dominant partner.  No mater how much people will mouth 50-50.. one or the other is going to be dominant, and, that can vary in levels depending on the situation and even incur role reversal under certain circumstances.

If you are willing to have an "insta family" but still want to have kids of your own, I think you are complicating things a lot.  I would advise doing one or the other.  Either take on the insta family or find someone who hasn't had kids yet.

I think you are making one assumption that can be dangerous in your search.  You said,

First part is great.. second part is dangerous.  Not everyone is looking for that.  For example.. there is a woman I know online that lives in Dnepro.. she would marry me tomorrow "love included".  What is really going on is she is desperate to have a man "fix" her life and she will throw sex in for the favor.  She wasn't very sophisticated about it and I thanked her for that.. but.. someone a little smarter could easily fool a man who is too trusting.  "Stupid Americans"  My point is.. just because someone is treating you nicely do NOT assume she is doing it for the reasons you wish her to be.

I bring this up because of your last paragraph where you spoke about having several meetings with a woman who was recently divorced.  I am sorry, but, why would you do that?  Any divorced women I corresponded with had to have a few years behind them and really be back on their own two feet before I would have considered them seriously.  I was not shy at all about questioning them on that level and at the first sign of emotional distress I moved on.  I heard the following comment numerous times... "I want a man to take care of me so I will not have to worry about anything anymore".  To me that comment was a clear depiction of what kind of life I could expect and it was not one that I wanted.  Peg Bundy came into my mind when i heard that.  Anyway, I really am baffled why you would have tried so hard with someone so recently divorced???

And finally.. it was me that asked where you got the "shake down" at the airport.  Really sorry to hear about that.. especially in regards to it being Sochi where the Olympics will be held.  That kind of publicity would be really bad for Sochi.  Are you sure there wasn't some other event that precipitated this shake down?

[GregfromGa]

I think you're primed to make it happen. You've been around, you've made the trips, you can probably spot a scammer. Once every 6 months probably wont get it done though. I've never really been a big fan of the agencies but obviously they can work. You say you're staying in your league, you keep in shape and want a girl with a kid. You should be able to make this happen. Maybe you need to know someone that knows someone. Now if I was single, I'd be trying to buy Lily a happy meal.

[Gator]

If you are willing to have an "insta family" but still want to have kids of your own, I think you are complicating things a lot.  I would advise doing one or the other.  Either take on the insta family or find someone who hasn't had kids yet.

I disagree.  The RW with a kid and not wanting another is looking forward to her life without kids.

OTOH, the RW with a kid and wanting a common child has strong family goals and values.

[Gator]

Xman stated he didn't like the "shotgun" WMVM

With Cindy agency (or similar), one writes only once or twice and then gets on a plane.  Once in Dnepro, Cindy arranges meetings with those he wrote plus others selected from the Cindy catalogue.  Cindy sets up the meetings, filling available time slots.  After 2-3 days of meetings, Xman selects one or two to get to know better. 

The women know the game.  This is not WMVM where one arranges the meetings and tries to hide or reconcile the fact that he is meeting others with whom he has tallked with.

EMs would appear to me a viable option. He might get lucky where you didn't.

I got lucky with EM.  Fine woman.  I decided that I already knew one better.

EM is similar to his generic agency approach where he did WOVO or his shotgun approach where he did WMVM.

[Sculpto]

I disagree.  The RW with a kid and not wanting another is looking forward to her life without kids.

OTOH, the RW with a kid and wanting a common child has strong family goals and values.

That depends entirely on the honesty of the woman and I think it is hard to judge that when kids are involved because the motherly instinct is automatic.  JMO FWIW

[Sculpto]

Gator.. have you taken a look at vkontakte or any of the other social networks?  If you take a look.. I think you will find out there is no reason to use an agency anymore, in fact, using an agency is going to limit a guys choices.  There are a multitude of social networking sites that have taken on a very international flavor and have tons of FSUWs on them.  A lady I corresponded with a long time ago sent me an invite to one a few weeks ago that I had never heard of.  Just for kicks I searched females in Moscow between 20 and 40.. there were several thousand, just in or around Moscow.  They have their own computers, web cams and no connection to agencies.  The site is based in Europe.. there are women from all FSU countries, plus iron curtain countries.. When I was still searching I felt that the ladies from those sites that were looking for love were well aware they might find it in another country and when I asked many were not against the idea of relocating.. not all.. but many liked the idea.  The lady I mentioned in a previous post from Dnepro is a prime example.. attractive, available, willing and ready to leave Ukraine.. had lived abroad before in Jordan and Korea working as a pianist and singer in hotels and wanted to get married.  She would marry a Russian guy if one came along.. but.. she is 35 with a kid.. you know what her chances are.  And.. the best part.. there are more and more new members every day.. web 2.0 is growing really fast all over the world.  By the way.. if anyone does try a social network.. search Poland.. wow!  Gorgeous women!

[Simoni]

... there is no reason to use an agency anymore, in fact, using an agency is going to limit a guys choices.

Hmm.... how many choices do you want? 

In my case, using the same agency Gator cites, there were a couple of thousand girls to write to  or meet or choose from.  And they all lived within 20 minutes of the office.  That was the big advantage over EM.

I see no need to knock any specific approach, Sculpto.  I met half a dozen great girls via that agency when I was in Dnepr those 10 days, and one is now my wife.

I'm fine with guys using EM or free personals or anything that works. It just does not make sense to try to knock some ways that have and do work.

[Sculpto]

Simoni.. I understand your point and I am not really knocking it except in the sense of it being outmoded and potentially misleading.  I know there are guys who have success via agencies, but, I also feel that the dynamics have changed a lot in a short time.

For example.. the scammers at yeva are up to their old tricks again.. I had a few months with no hassles from them after writing a rather threatening letter, but now its started again.  Business must be hurting so they are obviously recycling old email lists.  They even put my profile back up after removing it, without my permission.  I have dozens of letters in my inbox.  I also had the first random scam attempt letter in over a year arrive this week.

Elenas and a couple other agencies guys recommend are probably the least bad I absolutely agree, but, there is still a profit motive.  Why should a guy subject himself to that when there is an alternative that eliminates that risk, guarantees he is communicating with the lady in the photo and doesn't cost anything?

I am just trying to be practical here.  On the other hand.. if the agency sites stepped up their game, became more honest, and were offering a lot of value added I might be of a differing opinion.  But, so far they aren't and I know of several web 2.0 site with many Russian ladies who have photos of themselves in Times Square, Vegas and the walk of Stars in LA.  You know what that means right?  Tourist visa in their passport.