Need help in Odessa!!

[Muddy]

I take the night train to Kiev tomorrow evening and then go to Borispol to fly to JFK.  All I can tell you is that for today, it is good here--I will worry about tomorrow when it arrives!

Takes around an hour by airplane

[392ihc]

Well, well, well....certainly an abrupt reversal of fortune for me here.  Lady #2 met me for breakfast this morning and I showed her the portion of this site which has posts from RW on the things that they missed living in the US.  She read those pages and said nothing.  At the same time she observed my "handle" on this site and began a search of my posts....  This lady knows how to use a computer!  She found this thread and read my first post and the last page and she was immediately angry and the entire tenor of our relationship changed. She insisted upon leaving the wifi area and going for a walk.  She had read enough of my first post to see that I had written about Lady #1 and she told me explicitly that I must have her permission to write about her!  I tried to explain that I did not agree and that not all things are the same in my culture....she persisted and began explaining how American men are not like me and do not think as I do!  I asked her if she now begins to explain American men to me?  Of course, she avoided answering my question.  I also tried to explain to her that I try not to write/tell people too much information (TMI). I try to keep to the kernel of the message and leave out what I consider to be extraneous details.  Of course I did not use this vocabulary when telling her this.  Naturally she did not agree with this either. She feels I lied when I did not tell her every detail about lady #1 (there was more detail in my first post here).

She has been communicating with another man she has not met and she told me this early after I met her.  He has plans to visit next month here in Odessa.  I told her about lady #1 and my first trip to Ukraine last Spring. Now this morning she demands to know what dating sites I have used to meet women and when I wrote to them.... I do not think this is about being "friends".  There can be no betrayal unless one had other expectations, IMHO.

Anyway, after we walked a rather long time she left me in front of my apartment with the announcement she was going to work and she would go to this web site and read all seven pages of posts on here!  So, I felt it was already over when she walked away but once she reads on here that I have written about her certainly there will be no relationship!  This I understand clearly!!  Several times I asked her to listen and several times she continued to interupt me and prevent me from finishing my sentence.  Her mind was already made up.

So, I return to my home with my tail between my legs!  Certainly I meant no offense to her.  I have only respect for her and I have written this way from the very first post but I cannot change how she sees things nor will I try. She must make choices also.  She has chosen to see my behavior as a huge offense against not only lady #1 but also herself.

So, you can use this thread as a script for how to make the best of a failed trip but maybe you need to change my ending if you do!  Perhaps she will even read this post!

Clearly I have made mistakes...I understand this.  But I really question how any woman can expect such privacy in a relationship that was clearly flawed (as when I wrote here about lady #1) and even take personal offense at it herself!  It is easier to understand how she would feel "betrayed" by postings on here about herself...but then my naive thinking suggests that if she were to read the positive nature of every posts maybe she......   never mind.   

Finally I share with you that she refused to tell me her second name or last name yesterday.  She informed me this was very private and that she tells only the police or her doctor!  I immediately deferred to her wishes.  I tried to explain that it is different in my culture.  Again this morning she brought this up....seeking to find some more offense in it from me.  I again told her I do not want to know her second name any longer but that it is different in my culture....no good.  Didn't buy any of it.

So, I can hardly wait for that train to leave!  So many of you have shared very thoughtful advice and mature thinking and I again express my gratitude to you for your insight.  I am in your debt.
Mike in Wyoming 

[BillyB]

Mike,
   You disclosed more than you should. You did fine when you told the truth about initially about lady #1 but should leave it at that.

I don't see your posts anywhere talking about sex with a woman and you've been a gentleman here. I think if she really was into you, she coud handle your posts and be more forgiving, after all, you've had nothing but good things to say about her. She herself disclosed she has a meeting with a #2 and keeping her options open. Keep your eyes open for #3 walking down the street or in the train.

[Donhollio]

 Having read your time in Odessa I can only say that you should never tell any FSUW about this or any other WM forums. I know I would have some questions to answer to if they read the things I have said and done over the years.
Odessa is a great city in the summer,having spent a few months in that city,I can tell say I feel there is no better place in a big city in the summer. However having a friend read your past posts, didn't serve you well. It's a lesson learned, and now that you have your feet wet, your most likely hooked on those UA women.  

[BC]

Having read your time in Odessa I can only say that you should never tell any FSUW about this or any other WM forums. I know I would have some questions to answer to if they read the thinkgs I have said and done over the years.

Just goes to show that we are in a new age, one in which our slightest thoughts are immortalized.

I tend to think that a relationship should outlast a few forum posts, OTOH have seen that my wife is also quite reserved regarding our privacy and in many ways I agree with her.  For some reason I think the desire for privacy is somehow ingrained in RW - likely due to past generations.  We've come a long way from throwing bottles with notes in the ocean and the implications are just emerging.

I just signed up to facebook with a fake name but valid email address I used long ago..  out of nowhere popped up folks on facebook I had corresponded or chatted with using that email account.  There is no Big Brother, everyone is Big Brother.

I always post keeping in mind that one day, someone I know will stumble upon it.

[GoodOlBoy]

Lady #2 met me for breakfast this morning and I showed her the portion of this site (RWD) which has posts from RW on the things that they missed living in the US.

Sorry General Mike.

I recoiled inside yesterday when you mentioned something about showing #2 this site (RWD), BUT....I didn't say anything to you.

I wish I had said something now.

Me personally, I think it is almost impossible for an FSUW to understand RWD or the Western Male's way of thinking and writing, without living here in the GoodOl' USA.

Why you say??

My wife is a member on this forum and has been working in Miami for 3 1/2 years and she still comes to me for explanations of what male members post on here (Why WM write and think in such a way Rick?)

According to Marina, we don't write or think ANYTHING like Russian Men (except "Possum" ).

Of course FSUW like "Lily" (Moscow) are the exception to my way of thinking, BUT...I also remembered reading on previous posts, that Lily actually lived in the GoodOl' USA for a while.

Maybe a lesson learned for everybody here?


GOB

[GQBlues]

Hindsight's address always has been and always will be 20/20. Your situation makes for the core argument of what can happen on a VO. I had never been a fan of using other women as back-ups. I can understand what she may have been feeling when she read your saga. There's absolutely nothing wrong with VO. I tip my hats to the men who've done that in an honest fashion. But be the same man and face the devil in the eye and not involve any other women in the event it didn't work out. You're either visiting only one or you're visiting many. I don't care what guys tells everyone, but VO with women back-ups is lying to yourself, to the woman you're going to meet and the women in the wings. Why would anyone really want to do that?

But that's just me.

Mike, just FYI, the population of men going to FSU, or any other disadvantaged country to seek a partner is relatively fairly small. So small in fact that the entire endeavor is frowned upon to a good degree in the US. So when you tell someone that your actions are representative of what every American men will do, she's absolutely right not to believe you ~ to try and convice her to the contrary only exacerbate the situation. I would have never done anything you did on your trip. That's not a statement to determine which of us is a better person, all I'm saying is we're all different. I give her credit for knowing this matter better than you.

I wrote something in this thread yesterday, but acidentally posted it in another thread. When I came back to try and relocate it here - I decided against it. I'm not bagging on you when your chips are down. I'm hopeful when you rise back-up you take your own wit and instinct and act upon them.

I hope you find what you seek and may happiness find its way to you sooner than later. Take your last experience as a great referential baseline and keep it close for future disposition. 

Good luck.

as an aside: Donhollio - are you still single? 

[392ihc]

Yeah, big lesson learned here!  That ain't no bull either!  Actually, as I have walked around this beautiful city today since her departure, I think she showed up this morning already angry...maybe not even at me.  She broke our date last night because she had a headache (women's trouble you know!).  But even when I met her for breakfast she was already irritated but I shrugged it off.  Then I turned on the computer.....

I really just logged on to share an appropriate encore for my visit....  After eating dinner I was walking back to my flat and this pretty young thing met my eyes, she smiled at me, I smiled at her, she walked over to me, asked me my name, told me hers, oh, it was so sweet!  Then she asks me if I want to buy her a drink!  Hah, I told her no but thanks so much for asking!!  Even this makes me chuckle!

Ah, yes, you suggest I am hooked on UA women?  I tell you American women wear more to bed than these women wear walking around town!  Their bra has now become an "outer garment" for many. See-thru dresses showing thongs and whatever!  And we think they are conservative?  There are so many contradictions in behavior here.  It is still a mystery to me.  Time to go home.
Mike in Odessa

[Daveman]

According to Marina, we don't write or think ANYTHING like Russian Men.

Yes, and sometimes it's like they come from a different galaxy completely..what we view as the most innocuous utterance of a phrase, or some little action can be interpreted in a most bizarre way, to our way of thinking, and suddenly we are teleported to a world where our brand of logic and reason ceases to exist entirely.  We rarely even know what hit us until it's too late, and then scramble to locate the invisible enemy.  

same theme I wrote about here:
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9797.msg192717#msg192717

I echo the sentiments that it is not a good idea to introduce any woman you are dating, whatever, to this site. Save RWD for after you are married... The best bet, IMO, is to find open minded, free thinking FSU ladies.. they do exist, are a little less likely to make snap judgments, and are much more conducive to problem mitigation.  We have some of these on this forum... use them as examples... I have, and it has made a world of difference in my search.  What it boils down to, in any relationship, is the quality of communication.. some wish to understand and go to great lengths to do so, others are programmed to make snap judgments..  Now I avoid the latter completely, and the quality of women with whom I communicate has increased exponentially (guess I was a slow learner, but the lesson finally took hold)

edit: And, it's not all about her... you gotta be open minded and go the extra mile in communication/understanding as well.

[Gator]

What happened?  First a MW and now a UW have jumped to conclusions and have given you the “Bad Man” label even though nothing happened other than a misunderstanding.

I can tell from your posts that you are a sincere, honest man. You seem to have an open, warm heart.  Such men, as you have demonstrated, will say more than they should.  You probably are incapable of deceit, mostly because you do not know how to deceive.   

Mike, you need to find a woman who gives you the benefit of the doubt when you say something that she interprets as unacceptable behavior.  It sounds like Lady #2 is not that woman.  Also, she is not trusting as she will not give you her last name (I have never encountered such).

With Lady No. 2 it was your last hours together.  Instead of cementing a relationship, she flies off the handle over an innocent mistake rather than recognizing that you have an open heart and sometimes will put your foot in your mouth.   Perhaps you can live with a woman who will punish you verbally over something innocent, make dramatic statements and gestures, and go into a stubborn shell of unknown duration.  I can not. 

Mike, you can discuss this some more after resting and thinking about what happened.  I think the answer will be:  Keep looking!

[Sculpto]

several observations Mike..

First, sorry things didn't work out for you.  But, sounds like you learned a lot and that is important, you should have better luck should you choose to try again, and I think you should.  I am the poster boy for persistence as are many others on the forum.

You know the lady who asked you to buy her a drink was offering more than a drink don't you?  Nothing is free of course. 

The contradiction you noticed is ever more present in the younger generation, especially in the bigger cities.  I believe it is an awakening of female power and it is no where near a conclusion in evolution. 

I echo the sentiments that it is not a good idea to introduce any woman you are dating, whatever, to this site. Save RWD for after you are married... The best bet, IMO, is to find open minded, free thinking FSU ladies.. they do exist, are a little less likely to make snap judgments, and are much more conducive to problem mitigation.  We have some of these on this forum... use them as examples... I have, and it has made a world of difference in my search.  What it boils down to, in any relationship, is the quality of communication.. some wish to understand and go to great lengths to do so, others are programmed to make snap judgments..  Now I avoid the latter completely, and the quality of women with whom I communicate has increased exponentially (guess I was a slow learner, but the lesson finally took hold)

edit: And, it's not all about her... you gotta be open minded and go the extra mile in communication/understanding as well.

Dave makes an absolutely correct and important observation here.  Often in the forum cultural differences are derided as men making excuses for bad behavior, yet, they are real and the only way to bridge them is through communication.  I have noticed, with my woman, and with Russians I do business with, a tendency to hint at things, not always stating clearly what the issue is.  I am not about to make any suggestions as to why this exists, but, it does and I don't like it.  I like things spelled out with details.  I have learned to constantly remind my girl to be specific, and, at the same time, learned to be more subtle with her.  Because she is open about communication and wants to understand me and for me to understand her, she is making an effort to be specific, even though it clearly frustrates her sometimes.  I sent her a long letter about a week ago specifically talking about cultural differences and reminding her that every time I do not understand her culture, she is also not understanding mine.  The more I talk about this, the more open she becomes and less likely to become upset when I don't get her "suggestion".  I am talking about my relationship not to open up a debate, but, just to share my experience.  I am sure it is different for everyone in various degrees.

And yes, never tell a lady about this forum or any other.  If mine ever finds it I am probably dead meat.  I know she is aware of some Russian language womens forums.. not sure how many there are.

[Donhollio]

as an aside: Donhollio - are you still single? 

 You know me better to know that yes of course I am still single  But the pursuit never ends !

Mike the fashion is quite nice there isn't it ?  I wish I was on Malibu beach right now enjoying the sites and of course the sea. Drinking beer in the company of female friends and breasts at every angle.    Can't believe it has been 3 years...

[GQBlues]

 

You know me better to know that yes of course I am still single  But the pursuit never ends!

Dang, that's tough, man. I can only imagine all the hard work you put yourself into. Being single can be so challenging in our lonely planet (). Stay strong, man. Stay strong. We'll always leave the lights on for you.

[Muddy]

Well, well, well....certainly an abrupt reversal of fortune for me here.  Lady #2 met me for breakfast this morning and I showed her the portion of this site which has posts from RW on the things that they missed living in the US.  She read those pages and said nothing.  At the same time she observed my "handle" on this site and began a search of my posts....  This lady knows how to use a computer!  She found this thread and read my first post and the last page and she was immediately angry and the entire tenor of our relationship changed.

BIG BIG MISTAKE PAL, the less girls know the better!

My girl the first thing she did when she used my computer for the first time was to look at these folders:
My Documents
My Pictures
My Vidoes

also in the internet explorer she had looked at the link history for all the sites I had visited

I know because I had installed a keylogger on my computer, in only 15 minutes she had looked at many folders on my laptop, she even had launched Outlook Express to see my emails.


Be careful fellas!!

[JR]

Sorry Mike. But was a good effort, great recovery and maybe a "saved by the bell" situation.

I kept a journal of my trip back in the early nineties. Wish I could find it. My ex found it and demanded to read it over my objections. She said it was 'their' tradition. BS but she wouldn't let go of it. I knew that no matter what it contained I was in deep trouble. And I was. I would advise against introducing ladies you are interested in to RWD or other sites you may frequent until you have a very firm fountation to build upon.

That being said I introduced a lady to RWD. She read my posts and said "Pretty normal stuff." But I wasn't married to her and it was pre-trip report. I have yet to meet her but she lives in S.F. so I may journey that way one day soon to introduce myself.

Generally speaking if you're in the early stages of a relationship or scouting out that possibility I'd stay FAR AWAY from getting into details of any kind about other women. It's poision any way you look at it....

[GoodOlBoy]

I know because I had installed a keylogger on my computer,......

You put a keylogger on her computer AND yours? 

You are UNBELIEVABLE Muddy!  :evil:


GOB


BTW..I am almost afraid to ask, BUT..What else do you do to keep "track" of your women?

[janic]

BIG BIG MISTAKE PAL, the less girls know the better!

I agree.

My girl the first thing she did when she used my computer for the first time was to look at these folders: [...] also in the internet explorer [...] she even had launched Outlook Express to see my emails.

Sorry, I just can't understand how you (or smbdy else) can permit whoever to use your account. Guys, every recent OS allows multiple accounts! Create one for 'temporary users' and maybe another one for the GF.

Additionally  I recommend to everybody to use encryption! Not only to hide your stuff from the eyes of your GF but to protet the data in case the computer gets lost or stolen. The product of choice would be TrueCrypt (http://www.truecrypt.org/). Open, compatible (Win, Mac, Linux) and free of charge.

I know because I had installed a keylogger on my computer

Sorry, but that's disgusting. Don't you have any respect for the privacy of other ppl?

[mies]

what is keylogger?

[Misha]

what is keylogger?

A secret piece of software that is installed onto a computer that allows someone to see all that was typed on a given computer without the person at the keyboard being aware that all they activities are being recorded. Now, "keyloggers" likely can record which web sites are visited and pretty much recreate all that a person did at that computer. In other words, it is a piece of software to allow someone to spy on someone else and know exactly what they typed and did at the computer. Muddy seems to be the expert in the field so he can let us know which software he uses.

[Sculpto]

Muddy seems to be the expert in the field so he can let us know which software he uses.

Don't encourage him.

[Muddy]

Additionally  I recommend to everybody to use encryption! Not only to hide your stuff from the eyes of your GF but to protet the data in case the computer gets lost or stolen. The product of choice would be TrueCrypt (http://www.truecrypt.org/). Open, compatible (Win, Mac, Linux) and free of charge.

Thank u sir, I will look into it

[mies]

thank you for explaining.

[392ihc]

Checking back in...  I made it home earlier today. Don't even want to talk about JFK or Denver...  now I need to stay awake longer here and try to sleep on local time!

Yes, yes, I certainly understand better about never divulging information about this site or about other women.  I told Lady #2 that we have an old American saying, "Too soon old and too late smart."  At least she laughed at that.  Not that it matters now but it came up in terms of "how I found her on the Singles.ru site".  Stupidly I just answered her question.  "I wrote to some of my friends on a different site and they advised me to register there and search for a lady in Odessa."  But it wasn't until two days later that the inquisition began.  How many women did you write to?  Are you using other sites?  How many women do you write to?  Did you go to the agency they told you about?  ad nauseum.

You see, IMHO there exists a perpetual Catch 22.  If you do not divulge some critical information early and they discover it later, it is equally as bad or worse in the mind of the Slavic women that I have known. I just do not understand why there is this obsessive interest in all and every woman I have ever known, written to, or even looked at!!  And balance that with not one question from me about any other man in her life other than her ex-husband!  And this was the woman who insisted that all relationships must be equal!  

Yes, of course I know that the sweet thing who asked me to buy her a drink was wanting more than a drink!  I am old enough to still be flattered by the interest in even a prostitute on the sidewalk in front of McDonalds!  Some day you will understand!  I just thought it was funny after the advice on here to go out and meet women on the street.... (you know, street walker?  Nevermind.  I am suffering from severe jet lag).

Seriously, in spite of my jet lag mind, I tell you that I have doubts about returning.  I've made two trips. I have spent all of my "discretionary money" for a long while now. Forgive me for saying this but I can find a controlling, angry, obsessive and argumentative woman in my country for a lot less money!  I admit she will not be as attractive but a hell of a lot cheaper!  Maybe things will look differently in a month or two.

Anyway, there were delightful times with Lady #2.  The tours, the restaurants, the Moscow Circus, the beach, the fountain with the lights and the music after dark....  these are memories which I will always cherish as I sit in my rocking chair and drool down my chin!!

My regards to all of you.
Mike in Wyoming

[JR]

You see, IMHO there exists a perpetual Catch 22.  If you do not divulge some critical information early and they discover it later, it is equally as bad or worse in the mind of the Slavic women that I have known. I just do not understand why there is this obsessive interest in all and every woman I have ever known, written to, or even looked at!!  And balance that with not one question from me about any other man in her life other than her ex-husband!  And this was the woman who insisted that all relationships must be equal!  

It's called insecurity. BIG TIME!

[Daveman]

...

You see, IMHO there exists a perpetual Catch 22.  If you do not divulge some critical information early and they discover it later, it is equally as bad or worse in the mind of the Slavic women that I have known. I just do not understand why there is this obsessive interest in all and every woman I have ever known, written to, or even looked at!!  And balance that with not one question from me about any other man in her life other than her ex-husband!  And this was the woman who insisted that all relationships must be equal!  

...
Seriously, in spite of my jet lag mind, I tell you that I have doubts about returning.  I've made two trips. I have spent all of my "discretionary money" for a long while now. Forgive me for saying this but I can find a controlling, angry, obsessive and argumentative woman in my country for a lot less money!  I admit she will not be as attractive but a hell of a lot cheaper!  Maybe things will look differently in a month or two.

...

Mike, all I can say to you is that in all seriousness and sincerity, they are not all like what you described.  We have our share of nutbags and psychos here, both male and female, and it's the same there.  There are certain personality types or even a single type which will fit together with you, and the rest will not.  After weeding out the psychologically damaged from that group, how many are actually left? A hell of a lot number wise, but not so easy to find with the sheer numbers involved.  It takes time and effort, there or here.  If you are willing to throw in the towel and give up on your soul mate, then you really don't deserve to have her. That wonderful treasure who's waiting for you deserves a man who would/will never ever give up on her.

Get more focused on exactly what you want/need - not based on the photos, but rather on who the hell she is... the packaging is just the icing on the cake...

So anyway, thanks for posting your story. I hope it will not be the last one, but good luck with whatever you decide to do in the future.