I met a girl under special circumstances

[BillyB]

LOL Nice try Billy.. but those are public figures whose actions impact all of us.  But, we are talking about individuals, some of whom are lost souls and others who could teach all of us a thing or two about life.

Yeah you're right, President's and CEO who's actions impact us can't teach us anything unlike a roll in the hay with a hooker.

[JR]

The worry is of course her profession.. and I need some advice on this. Does it mean less for a girl in Russia then someone from western Europe etc etc etc? Help, please advise!

Why are we making a big deal out of it? He asked for advice. This is a topic which has severe ramifications. It should not be taken lightly.

If they love each other maybe everything will work out. But at this point her profession is already bothering him. Will it get any better with time? Not likely.

OP, ask yourself this: "Would I feel any different if she did the same acts without getting paid?" The money doesn't somehow make it legitimate. The behavior is what is in question. If you can get past that and leave it in the past then you can move ahead.

Of course, it's not in the past it is in the present. That probably makes it more difficult to get beyond. You can't waffle (go back and forth), either you accept it the way it currently is or you move on.

But please stop fooling yourself. This woman is only open and honest with you about what she does because she has no other choice. Unfortunately you can't turn the clock back, have a first date with her and see if she says "Oh by the way, I'm am currenlty working as a prostitute. Just thought you should know."

Do you really love this girl or are you titilated by the "Bad Girl" syndrome. Do you think you can change her? Are you trying to save her? You need to ask yourself these questions and look at the answers real hard. Don't BS yourself, it's your future you're talking about.

[mies]

In our (American) society in general, sex for money and those who partake in it are considered those of low moral character usually with much excess emotional and physical baggage. Some of those people have options for the lifestyle they chose and some do not but, it carries the same stigma regardless. That thought is an inbred thought just as the acceptance of prostitution in other lands is the norm. Who's to say which is right and which is wrong? It is societal differences.

In FSU society people who exchange sex for money also are considered of low moral character. When i was a teenager, in my town - the girl who was known to had a boyfriend/sex before marriage was generally considered a prostitute and referred to as such - e.g. "this prostitute" (though technically speaking - russian equivalent for "sl-t" would be more appropriate term - because girls did not receive money for sex). There were not many of such girls though. Not that people didn't have boyfriends - but they tried to conceal it. "Friends" - was ok, "friends with benefits" - no.

Another interesting linguistic phenomenon - the word "secretute" - a mix between "secretary" and "prostitute". My parents, for example, would never let me work as a secretary or PA, or any other administrative job - because in their belief - at this position sexual favors are the part of the working routine. If you hear russian/ukr men talking, discussing a woman with secretary position - you often can hear them referring to her as a "secretute". For example: "our office secretute is so dumb - she does not know how to use the Photoshop" or "we need a new secretute for our office - the previous one just quited" or "our secretute likes talking on phone at private matters during work time". These men have no idea whether this particular office administrative assistant/office manager/secretary/receptionist/personal assistant has sex with any of the top-managers in the office (and in most cases she doesn't), for sure - they never had sex with this woman themselves, but still - they are offending her. I am not quite sure what societal feature is reflected in this word- probably the fact that prostitutes are inferior form of life, that secretaries are inferior form of life, and that men are superior form of life - because men never work as PA, secretaries, receptionists, office managers or administrative assistants in typical ukrainian/russian offices.

[Sculpto]

Yeah you're right, President's and CEO who's actions impact us can't teach us anything unlike a roll in the hay with a hooker.

Who said anything about rolling in the hay?  I never had sex with the ladies I knew who were hookers.  But, I sure learned a lot from them.

CEOs and the former monkey in charge have things to teach also.. like how to cheat, lie and steal.  Wait, thats what you said about hookers.  Hmmm?

[Sculpto]

  and  to Jr and Mies last posts.

[BC]

Mies has a point though. The sex acts that occur between clients and prostitutes can occur between ordinary couples who have a sexual relationship. So are we opposed to the prostitution or the sex acts? As for sleeping with strangers, one night stands do happen with people who aren't prostitutes. I'm not arguing for prostitution or one night stands but is it the selling of sex or what happens during the selling of sex that some of us are opposed to? I know some aren't opposed to either.

Every society has to have some moral "norms"; otherwise our society would have no basis for condemning the child molester.

I think maybe the 'our society' part is what is coloring this discussion.  On one side many men revel at the thought of RW being more sexually open whereas the same girl's 'openness' in the US might produce catcalls or names like 'slut' might be spoken.  I've seen mom and dad's walking down a street with their kids that is lined with windows of scantily clad ladies flaunting their wares, elsewhere on this planet they would probably have social services on their back for exposing their kids to some harm.  

A 'child molester' put in jail on one side of the planet might only cause a minor ruffle elsewhere.  The age of consent in Spain is not the lowest in Europe at 13, but a US citizen can get him or herself in trouble with the fed's should something 'happen' overseas with someone under the age of 16..

I'm not condoning anything, but just pointing out that it's difficult to draw any lines of social standard with definition, especially when it comes to sex.  Just to prove a point (and stir the pot a bit), would any of the posters here marry a woman that had a prior relationship with a black man?

IIRC When doing a K1, there is a question on the DS 156 form asking if the person requesting a non immigrant visa has ever been a prostitute..  wonder what that's for and if it is grounds for denial (some sources say yes), and if so why.. -is this an artifact of the Puritan immigration to America in the early to mid 1600's??

[Stix]

I'm not condoning anything, but just pointing out that it's difficult to draw any lines of social standard with definition, especially when it comes to sex.  Just to prove a point (and stir the pot a bit), would any of the posters here marry a woman that had a prior relationship with a black man?

BC, I'm black. I guess I'll say yes to that one 

In many ways the Puritans were misunderstood. It's true that Christianity considers prostitution a sin, though like other sins it can be forgiven. No doubt some early Christians were probably ex-temple prostitutes. I'll look into it but I don't think the Puritans would have tried to prevent a former prostitute from coming to America.

[JR]

BC, I'm black. I guess I'll say yes to that one 

How DARE you!

[JR]

BTW: that was, is and always will be just a joke, only a joke and nothing but a joke.

I believe I have dated women who have dated (had sex with) a black man. So what? What's the big deal? A good man's a good man. You're trying to draw a parallel between a choice (prostitution) and a non-choice (ehtnicity at birth). It just doesn't work.

I would much rather see my daughter marry a good man, who might happen to be black than to become a prostitute.

[mies]

My thought is that we live in societies to seek our common good; thus every society has to have some moral "norms" that define the common good. Otherwise our society would have no basis for condemning the pedophile. Yes most of the time they force their victims; but unfortunately with older children, it's sometimes just seduction and playing on their emotions, especially in the Internet age.

I agree with this. I am not an expert on civil or criminal law, nor on mechanism of seducing an underage. I do know that in many cases the child/teenager gives some form of consent, however this consent is not considered valid by the "adults' world standards". Firstly - because child has no idea what (s)he is giving consent about, and secondly - because they cannot make as logical and reasoned decisions as adults do - partly due to lack of experience, partly due to the fact that their personalities and cognitive abilities (as well as bodies) are not completely developed.
A child is "capable" but not "competent".
If I remember it correctly - individual is capable/(in Russian - "able to use law") from the birth till death. However, to be "competent"(in RUssian - "able to act (independently)" - one has to be at least of certain age (18yo in Russia) and have at least basic mental abilities. Such - old people with dementia may be officially recognized as "incompetent"/"not able to act", or people with certain disabilities (usually mentally challenged people) - may be also recognized as "not able to act".

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competence_(law)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_(law)

therefore - molesting a child even if child gave consent, or raping an adult - are comparable crimes to me. Molesting a child is even a worse crime - because child depends on adults, while adult can be relatively independent and has more means to protect her/himself from an offender.

[JR]

A child cannot "give consent." That is why we have something called "The Age of Consent." Until then children are to be protected. I am not picking a fight or trying to mince words I just feel it is important to stress that a child cannot give consent.

[mies]

this is what I meant too. Until the "age of consent", and I think (I am not 100% sure because I have very basic knowledge of the law - and almost "0" of civil or criminal law) that "the age of consent" is related, or maybe derived from the same reasoning as the age of being "competent".
I also think that "competency" is more general term. Again - I cannot present any quotes from codes or laws, but I think that an "incompetent" person cannot really give consent (same as a child cannot) - that is consent from such person will not be considered valid. For example - incompetent/"недееспособный" person cannot decide about selling a house, or getting married, or give consent about his/her inheritance, or on other matters (if I remember correctly).

when i say "child may give consent" - i mean that child will say "ok" or will express his/her agreement in some other form. In terms of law - this agreement will not be valid.  

[Daveman]

Yup......Looks like you busted me Mies.

Back "in the day", I was a porno star.  :evil:

I went by the screen name "Stallion" (because of my equipment)! 

Sadly, I had to retire quite early because of an on the job injury involving my co-star's teeth.   

Now I live in Florida, on permanent disability. 


GOB

 

[Sculpto]

I think it is odd that in the US a young person can drive, go to war, have sex, but not have a drink till they are 21.  Does that seem strange to anyone else?

[Ade]

I think it is odd that in the US a young person can drive, go to war, have sex, but not have a drink till they are 21.  Does that seem strange to anyone else?

Dude, if you want to talk strange, by far the strangest thing in the US is the pervasive butt crack blurring on MTV.

[Aloe]

I think it is odd that in the US a young person can drive, go to war, have sex, but not have a drink till they are 21.  Does that seem strange to anyone else?

it does seem very strange that you can drive (thus endangering many people) at 16, and you can vote thus affecting(endangering?) your country's fate at 18, but drink and endanger only yourself at 21

[Aloe]

by the way i saw a tv program about prostitutes and strippers and how many of them are married and have children, and the husbands say stuff like "at the end of the day she comes home to me, so it doesnt matter", so there is plenty of men with their own "roaches in the head" who will accept such a woman

[Aloe]

Also, what is all that talk about "id never marry a hooker"? You will never be able to tell if she "turned tricks" in the past, unless she did it for a long time. And if you think you can tell, you probably are the same person who goes around saying "i look 10 years younger than i am" 

[GoodOlBoy]

....i saw a tv program about prostitutes and strippers  .....the husbands say stuff like "at the end of the day she comes home to me, so it doesnt matter",.....

I have seen those programs also Aloe.

The men who made this statement, obviously left out one VERY important detail.

As long as the whore comes home to him at the end of the day with the MONEY/PAYCHECK, everything else really doesn't matter!  :evil:


GOB

[Blues Fairy]

it does seem very strange that you can drive (thus endangering many people) at 16, and you can vote thus affecting(endangering?) your country's fate at 18, but drink and endanger only yourself at 21

Aloe, you are very wise.
I also think that voting is too accessible to unqualified and immature people; they must at least pass a basic comprehension test to earn this right. 

[Misha]

As long as the whore comes home to him at the end of the day with the MONEY/PAYCHECK, everything else really doesn't matter!  :evil:

  GOB, you made my morning.

[BillyB]

As long as the whore comes home to him at the end of the day with the MONEY/PAYCHECK, everything else really doesn't matter!  :evil:

Ya mean the men that marry them are in it for the money too???? Money does make all the ugly go away. Heck, some men who normally wouldn't consider sleeping with another man would do it if there was money involved. Everything feels better with cash.

[BC]

BC, I'm black. I guess I'll say yes to that one 

In many ways the Puritans were misunderstood. It's true that Christianity considers prostitution a sin, though like other sins it can be forgiven. No doubt some early Christians were probably ex-temple prostitutes. I'll look into it but I don't think the Puritans would have tried to prevent a former prostitute from coming to America.

LOL

While stationed in Germany there were a good number of German girls that dated black guys.  I remember well some of the 'behind the back' comments, mostly by jealous white guys, while the Germans guys said little or nothing (as it should be).

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a stark difference between social 'standards', with the US leaning heavily toward the ueber moralistic, no tolerance view with a bit of worldly ignorance thrown in.

I reviewed the EU Schengen non immigrant visa form - it mentions nothing about prostitution, and can't recall any such question when my wife immigrated here.  In fact, even a medical exam was not necessary.

The question about prostitution on the DS 156 OTOH really puzzles me.. as if they think this question will ever be honestly answered...

Lets just hypothesize that a former prostitute honestly answers 'yes' when applying for a K1.. what do you think will happen?  Will she get the visa?

[GoodOlBoy]

Lets just hypothesize that a former prostitute honestly answers 'yes' when applying for a K1.. what do you think will happen? 

I don't know, BUT...Depending on what she looks like, it could be an "interesting" interview!!  :evil:




GOB

[Sculpto]

Dude, if you want to talk strange, by far the strangest thing in the US is the pervasive butt crack blurring on MTV.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

cable access in SF has all the locally made videos they do not allow on MTV because of nudity and sexual content.. all I am going to say is some hip hop folks have a really wild life.. or at least one might believe so watching their videos.  I just want to know why you never see THOSE hot women walking around SF.