Russian General in Debaltseve?

[fathertime]

Good to see you changing your mind on some issues. Reality is that you're not much different than the people you are debating, it just takes more and continued aggression from Russia to get you to agree to the same solutions. Last year you weren't for sanctions and some people were for sanctions but against military action. You are now for sanctions and those who were against military action last year are for it this year. Everybody is changing their minds. Will our leaders do the same?

 

Within a couple months I could see that there was some benefit in applying a cost to the parts of Ukraine Russia was participating in...as it allowed the West to save some face and also apply the cost. 

If Putin continues a Hitler style march towards more territory, I'm sure you will eventually come to terms that military action is necessary to stop Russia.

I would likely support military action if Russia were to suddenly and unprovoked do something similar in the Baltics or another member of the EU or NATO.  I believe Russia realizes there is a limit, and therefore make that mistake.  They have exploited an opening and obviously the Western nations aren't going to get TOO serious about stopping him or they likely already would have. 


Fathertime!   

[BillyB]

Like Slobodan Milosovic's Serbia?

You think sanctions brought Milosovic down and broke Yugoslavia? Sanctions didn't work, that's why NATO bombed them. That worked.

Debaltseve is not exactly the Las Vegas of prosperity and neither is Crimea.

You smarter than Putin? It's not what's above the ground, it's what is below the ground that has value in Ukraine. It is estimated, based off the land Putin has acquired, there's over a trillion dollars of natural resources in the ground and off the coast of Crimea. Minus the damage of sanctions, Russia will turn a profit.

yeah, he is Doll smart.  You may marvel at his balls all you want.  But he has taken significant losses to his prestige and credibility.  When you have to go to Hungary or Egypt for the photo-op, you aren't on the Kim Jong list of losers but you're getting there.

Didn't I tell you that prosperity is not Putin's #1 goal to which you agreed and in the same post you say this? Putin does want to promote business with those nations but he's also taking a valuable ally away from us in Egypt which will hurt Middle East stability. He wants to divide NATO by befriending Hungary, Turkey, and Greece. He wants to partner up with Iran and North Korea because they are crazy and they don't like us.


North Korea has been recently testing cruise missiles that are identical to the ones Russia owns. Coincidence? One problem NK has is they don't have a delivery system for nukes. Russia just gave them one. Park North Korean ships off the West Coast that can fire 10 nuclear armed cruise missiles each and say goodbye to San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle. I apologize if I missed anybody living in an important major West Coast city. Laughing at Putin for dealing with rogue nations  isn't as funny as you think. Instead of taking it personal when someone like I says Putin is making good moves to destroy world stability, it's best you embrace reality. Telling everybody here Putin is stupid over and over and laughing at his every move will only get people to question your brain.

I would likely support military action if Russia were to suddenly and unprovoked do something similar in the Baltics or another member of the EU or NATO.

Here's the trick. Russia will destabilize the Baltics with support of opposition groups within those nations. Although the opposition groups are in the minority like the ones in Ukraine, Putin will tilt the scales in their favor with heavy weapons. Between the three Baltic nations, I believe they own 3 tanks and 10 aircraft. If Putin can get the world to believe there's an internal conflict(civil war) in those nations, NATO is not obligated to respond. Putin will also threaten the West with escalation of larger war if they interfere in another nation's civil war. The story is working so far in Ukraine, why change the story at Putin's next stop? Putin will create Eastern Europe's version of the Arab Spring.

[lordtiberius]

You think sanctions brought Milosovic down and broke Yugoslavia? Sanctions didn't work, that's why NATO bombed them. That worked.

And what prepared the way for the bombs to fall?  Sanctions . . . 

You smarter than Putin?

Is that a complete sentence? 

I think anyone who tries to live in the truth and obey the ten commandments no matter what his station is smarter than Putin.  I will also say I am not a Putin testicle measurer.

It's not what's above the ground, it's what is below the ground that has value in Ukraine. It is estimated, based off the land Putin has acquired, there's over a trillion dollars of natural resources in the ground and off the coast of Crimea. Minus the damage of sanctions, Russia will turn a profit.

When you have to fill out a loan application to buy vodka in Moscow, you got more problems than natural gas.

Didn't I tell you that prosperity is not Putin's #1 goal to which you agreed and in the same post you say this?

And how are you going to pay the troops? 

[sleepycat]

Russia is a HUGE market, every country would be glad to cooperate with Russia

you mean heavyweight countries like North Korea and Cuba? 

[BillyB]

And what prepared the way for the bombs to fall?  Sanctions . . . 

You are hell bent on giving sanctions the credit for the fall of Milosovic. If sanctions worked, why did the bombs need to fall? Maybe because sanctions didn't stop Milosovic? Sanctions don't work. Didn't work on Iran, North Korea, Cuba, USSR and now Russia. When was there a time in history that sanctions ever worked by getting an aggressor to curb bad behavior?

And how are you going to pay the troops?

Russia is a lot better off than North Korea which has one of the largest armies in the world yet you wondered for months how Putin is going to pay the troops. If the USSR and North Korea can figure it out, surely you can figure it out. You somehow have this belief the Russian army will go AWOL when the money runs out due to the West sanctioning them. You better believe when war is going on, ?Russia has a bullet with the name of every AWOL soldier on it.


Here's the current situation now. The lowest level private in the American military get paid $1547 a month according to the article below. A low level soldier in the Russian military gets paid $30 a month according to the article below. America's GDP is about 8 times bigger than Russia's but they can get 52 soldiers for the price of our one.


Pay scale American military


Russian soldier's pay and other BS in their life

[lordtiberius]

More false dichotomies than a FT investment seminar.  How about answering the question I posed instead of phony comparisons to irrelevant items?  North Korea and America are not parties to this conflict.  I have shot down every Pro-Putin argument you have foisted on us with quickness and accuracy of a Russian rocket against a lumbering Malaysian jet.

I hope Putin keeps fighting using Hybrid war tactics.  Instead of massacring 8,000 he let these Romans pass under the Samnite yoke.  Hybrid war is stupid because the aggressor state cannot amass combat power against the enemy.  He has to fight piecemeal and overly dependent on maskirovka. 

Pretty soon people will get tired of Putin's tricks and we will elect men and women who will deal with him on his terms.  And Putin hypers won't have anything to do except maybe how successful they are at love making.

[Photo Guy]

Of course there are Russian troops in the occupied territories of Ukraine.  A bunch of miners couldn't operate the sophisticated weaponry unleashed not only on Ukrainian soldiers, but also on Ukrainain civilians.

In Poroshenko's place, I would cede Debaltseve, and pour a lot of money into rebuilding the region once peace is achieved.  However, I would give newcomers to the region first crack at new apartments, and create state jobs there, so that the region is flooded with a pro Ukrainian population that would overtake the so called "rebels".

I like your thinking. But, rebels would kill or threaten to kill any Ukrainian nationalists.

If this has not been posted yet.
Putin has been a liar. Russians, read this article:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2671088

Kommersant promises to reveal more in the next few days....

[Boethius]

At some point, they would not be able to do so.


My better half is not optimistic, and he blames all sides.

[Photo Guy]

If separatists push into Mariupol, I'll blame the pro-russian Russians.

[JayH]

I like your thinking. But, rebels would kill or threaten to kill any Ukrainian nationalists.

If this has not been posted yet.
Putin has been a liar. Russians, read this article:
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2671088

Kommersant promises to reveal more in the next few days....

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg395290#msg395290
The article appeared in Russia-- the significance is contained in the last sentence I quote below.With the propaganda doing to softening up job on the Russian people for over a year now-it will be no shock to them to find they are engaged in a war.As long as they think they are the winning side--Putin will be allowed to push his agenda.
If the full might of Russian military resources are used-- Ukraine is simply not equipped to handle them.


Russian media admits that regular Russian troops took Debaltseve


Russian media dropped the pretense of tractor-driving local separatists with the recent report published by Ilya Barabanov in Russia’s newspaper “Kommersant.” It confirms longstanding reports by Ukrainian soldiers that they were fighting Russian regular troops, and not local militants, in Debaltseve. Barabanov writes: “20-year-old Misha was born in Yekaterinburg, 21-year-old Alex – in Mozdok, Artem is 22 years old, he is from the Slavyansk-on-Kuban, Dima is 23, he is from Vladikavkaz. Other guys are from Chita, Norilsk, Ulan-Ude. At the first glance, they have nothing in common. And yet, they do: the city of N, military unit *****, separate motorized infantry brigade 'N'.”

 It is, however, surprising to see that even Russian publications no longer attempt to keep this information a secret. This might be an indication that Russia’s aggression against Ukraine will become even more brazen in the coming days.

http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-media-admits-that-regular-russian-troops-took-debaltseve

[fathertime]

More false dichotomies than a FT investment seminar.  How about answering the question I posed instead of phony comparisons to irrelevant items?  North Korea and America are not parties to this conflict.  I have shot down every Pro-Putin argument you have foisted on us with quickness and accuracy of a Russian rocket against a lumbering Malaysian jet.

 

Actually you shot down none of BillyB's points but it funny you think you did!  LOL


Fathertime!   

[Doll]

"Эхо Москвы" is  opposing the Government.
I am commenting JayH's link

[lordtiberius]

My better half is not optimistic, and he blames all sides.

This is no surprise.

The idea that Ukrainians bear equal guilt or are guilty at all of provoking or sustaining this war is laughable.

[BillyB]

phony comparisons to irrelevant items?  North Korea and America are not parties to this conflict.

You should have figured out by now the majority of citizens in the West and their leaders don't care to put much effort into stopping Russia in Ukraine. People may not help Ukraine but they will help themselves and if they see Russia making business deals around the world that threatens their way of life, they will get motivated to stop Russia in Ukraine. If North Korea are the new owners of Russian cruise missiles that will someday give their nukes a method of delivery off ships, Obama needs to wake up and take preventive action instead of sweeping this under the rug. I have a feeling the next president will have to deal with all of Obama's failings.

[fathertime]

Einstein, you should have figured out by now the majority of citizens in the West and their leaders don't care to put much effort into stopping Russia in Ukraine.

Billyb is correct on this point. 


Fathertime!   

[Doll]

BillyB, remind me- who is threatening Obama so that he "needs to wake up?

[BillyB]

BillyB, remind me- who is threatening Obama so that he "needs to wake up?

Obama has threats on many fronts. His wife, Michele, has been rumored to be threatening him. She's applied sanctions on Obama some of which restricts sex. She gets jealous when he seems to be enjoying his time meeting female head of states and said there will be costs, one being threats of divorce. Article below for inquiring minds that want to know.


http://www.inquisitr.com/1563216/obama-divorce-rumors-barack-and-michelle-cant-escape-reports-of-marital-strife/

[lordtiberius]

Einstein, you should have figured out by now the majority of citizens in the West and their leaders don't care to put much effort into stopping Russia in Ukraine.

Wrong again.  A majority of Americans agree with Romney.  Keep trying though

People may not help Ukraine but they will help themselves and if they see Russia making business deals around the world that threatens their way of life, they will get motivated to stop Russia in Ukraine. If North Korea are the new owners of Russian cruise missiles that will someday give their nukes a method of delivery off ships, Obama needs to wake up and take preventive action instead of sweeping this under the rug. I have a feeling the next president will have to deal with all of Obama's failings.

Who are you arguing with?  I never contested these points you state in this section of your post because I agree with it.  That North Korean scenario has been around for 20 years.  I sat in that briefing in '95 when I interned for McCain. 

[lordtiberius]

Obama has threats on many fronts. His wife, Michele, has been rumored to be threatening him. She's applied sanctions on Obama some of which restricts sex. She gets jealous when he seems to be enjoying his time meeting female head of states and said there will be costs, one being threats of divorce. Article below for inquiring minds that want to know.


http://www.inquisitr.com/1563216/obama-divorce-rumors-barack-and-michelle-cant-escape-reports-of-marital-strife/

Wrong again.  The guy is gay.



If he was a good President, who cares right?  But he's not

[Muzh]

BillyB, remind me- who is threatening Obama so that he "needs to wake up?

Doll, the only people threatening Obama are the white conservative guys in Congress.


Now, if you are telling Billy that there is no threat from Putler, think again.


You have an erratic and charismatic leader who knows he cannot back down unless he dies, you really think there is no threat?

[lordtiberius]

Doll, the only people threatening Obama are the white conservative guys in Congress.

LOL, those so-called "conservative guys in Congress" are in bed with Obama or want to be . . .