Elen, RWDMA, BC, and RW's Attitudes

[Doug S]

I debated a while about where to put this topic, and finally settled on this "Experienced" section. If this is the wrong place, Dan please move it to wherever you think it belongs.

I've lifted its essence from the "Why RW Marry Abroad" thread, which has taken some intersting turns. The most interesting for me are some things that Elen and BC said over there.

First off, Elen,; thanks for kinda. sorta clarifying your situation or background for me. I still have no idea who you are, how old you are, whether you are married or not, have ever been to the U.S., etc. All I have been able to deduce from your comments is that you are a Russian woman, perhaps older than 30, living in Russia, and who has a child.

Now you have explained to me that:

- You dissaprove of Russian Women who Decide to Marry Abroad (RWDMA).

- You are loyal to Mother Russia and have no intention of marrying a foreigner and leaving Russia.

- You represent a group of Russian Women (RW) "loyalists" who feel the same way.

- And you resent our constant lumping of all Russian Women - both RWDMA's and RW's under the catch-all "RW."

That sounds very reasonable to me. It has been egocentric of us to assume, by inference that all Russian Women want to come to the West. I'm willing to change our designation of the Russian Women we are generally discussing here on this group to "RWDMA."  I don't know if all the others are willing. I think it's only fair in light of what you have pointed out. We can try to set a precedent here on RWD. I wonder.

That leads me to wanting to know why you are here. Are you are on a lot of these Internet groups about "RW"? Was it you who jumped on me recently over there at the "Russian Beating Place" web site?

Is your mission simply to point out the difference between RWDMA and RW to us, or are you trying to talk the guys on these groups out of doing such a crazy thing as bringing RW to their countries for marriage, or did your little sister or favorite cousin run off to the West with some jerk and break your heart, or what?

I just wonder.

I guess you do realize that purpose of these groups is pretty much to facilitate the exchange of information that will assist men in obtaining RWDMA's. Yes, it's interesting and great to get the viewpoint of real RW about that and other aspects of FSU; but the guys are are here pretty much for one common reason.

Is this like one of those things where, if you can persuade just one lost soul or alcoholic out of thousands to get religion or not drink anymore you will have done a good day's (or year's) work?

Or are you just bored.

You will probably continue to be secretive and not tell me what's going on with you. But it sure would be interesting to hear what's stoking your fire. 

You know, I have a Russian sister-in-law named Angela. She's in her mid-30's, been married to my wife, Olga's older brother Andrei for 15 years. He's a career officer in the Russian Navy. They live in Novorosissyk. They recently had their first child, a little boy (our little daughter's Russian cousin). Angela is great. She speaks a little English because of her job, and with my little Russian; we are able to converse about all kinds of things. She likes me and I like her. We relate to each other remarkably well considering our two completely different places in life. Maybe its the common denominator of having to deal with the same the in-laws that brings us together. But I suspect its more than that.

Angela is a strong, patriotic Russian woman. In many ways she reminds me of you, Elen. As much as I like (and love) Angela, I could never be married to her, and I often wonder how Andrei does it. And I'm pretty sure she is just as fond of me, but would say the same thing about marriage to me. Like you, Angela would never "sell out." She and Andrei went through some hard times. She could have very easily left him and put her "profile" on the Internet, but she held her ground. Andrei finally got promoted. The Navy finally gave them the apartment that was due to them. The baby finally came. And now they're all the much happier for it.

But at the same time Angela neither frowns on, nor condemns what Olga did, and I don't think she considers it "selling out." She told me that she has known Olga ever since she (Olga) was a little girl and that she thinks marrying me and going to America was the very best thing Olga could have done with her life. Olga is also a "strong" Russian woman, but she is probably a little bit softer, definitely younger, more open-minded, and a more progressive thinker than Angela. Two different Russian women. Two completely different circumstances. Two different choices. Two different lives. Both happy endings so far.

My Olga was definitely a RWDMA. She wanted to come to America. She wanted to marry an American. And she came with a positive attitude. When it came time to have babies, Olga couldn't wait to try pre-natal care and disposable diapers. Angela would have nothing to do with either. Etc.

Too often Elen, I see Western guys try to marry Russian women whose hearts are where yours and Angela's are, but who for some reason have decided to give the West and a Western husband a try. They are miserable marriages full of conflict and strife. Battle zones. That's why I'm always harping (to the extent that a lot of guys think I am overly critical and harsh) that the RW indeed need to be a RWDMA, signed, sealed and delivered. There can be no doubts in her mind and she's got to show the Western guy that commitment and desire from day one. And that's not to be confused with a desire simply to live in the West, but a desire to love and embrace her Western husband and his way of life - to leave her other life behind to a great extent. A couple can not live in harmony with one collective foot on each side of the pond.

Therefore, I don't want to marry you, Elen. It's over between us. I've decided to stay with Olga and the baby. I know you are heartbroken, but you'll get over it.

This brings me to BC's puzzling remarks. For some time now he and I have softly butted heads, or at least wondered about the incongruence of our two completely different experiences. Perhaps I am misquoting, but BC, if you are reading this, did you not say that your "HO" is that Elen's views, which in my mind is Elen's attitude, about FSU vs. West is the rule rather than the exception? That meaning that all or at least most Russian women come with that same attitude?

Well, if my logic is good so far, now I know why our experiences are so much different. My RWDMA's attitude and views on the subject are very much different that Elen's and presumably your wife's. And again, although American, you live in Italy with your Russian wife? Also, I see in the "Ice Breaker" section where your Russian Wife is probably a good ten years older than mine, had been married before, and you both already had children of your own. MY Olga would have never suggested or encouraged me to spend time with her living in together in Ukraine to further observe each other's behavior and habits before going the next step. And if I had suggested it, she would have probably agreed to do it, but thought it a silly waste of time. Presumably your wife thought it was a good idea, and it worked for you.

Where am I going with all of this? I'm trying to say that, as Elen points out, there are RWDMA and RW. And there are RW who are married to Westerners who really haven't crossed the line to RWDMA. (And may never.) We know RW's married to Western men, living in the USA, who have absolutely no intention of becoming full-fledged RWDMA. They just want the better lifestyle without the full commitment. In fact, I would say that more than half of the Russian-American couples we know are like that. And those RW are pretty outspoken and critical of the West, very defensive of FSU, very much like Elen. I personally; could not be married to somebody like this. Would not tolerate it. And my advice to other guys is if that is the only kind of Russian woman you can get, you are better off staying single.

Don't get me wrong, BC. I'm not trying to guess or say whether your Russian wife is RW or RWDMA, or yours is one of those half-committed marriages I have described. Sounds to me like you two are enjoying a nice place in the middle; perhaps the best of both worlds. Does you Russian wife speak Italian? Olga and I often think of trying to live in Spain, but Olga is worried about having to learn yet another language. Interesting that I really think she likes and prefers living right here in California USA.

My final point is that just because us "married guys" have all managed to stay married to Russian women and consider ourselves to be happy, our experiences, situations, and our women are probably very much different. We probably shouldn't spend time puzzling over why one successfully married guy's experience or view is so much different than another's. What is of more value is each particular individual's background, age, and immediate situation - both the RW/RWDMA and the WM.

DS (WM)

[BC]

This brings me to BC's puzzling remarks. For some time now he and I have softly butted heads, or at least wondered about the incongruence of our two completely different experiences. Perhaps I am misquoting, but BC, if you are reading this, did you not say that your "HO" is that Elen's views, which in my mind is Elen's attitude, about FSU vs. West is the rule rather than the exception? That meaning that all or at least most Russian women come with that same attitude?

Oh not butting heads Doug, just feeling each other out I guess *pinch* hehe..

First do have to ask what a 'HO' is.. 'homely other'??  really have no idea but seems you like using acronyms which is ok but often seems to put folks in little boxes.. like mice in cages to analyse.. LOL

I guess to get something constructive out of this will have to give you a little background.  I am a lifelong expat, lived in 7 or 8 different countries (including US) for extended periods, learning just about as many languages along the way. 

Short young marriage with a cute AW that went flirting around with a co-worker, remarried and ended up being abused and 'blimped out'.  No hard feelings on either side, maybe a bit of relief on my side.  Married a German woman for a much longer period that ended up in one of those love/hate situations.. I bailed.  Also no hard feelings on either side after the dust settled.

Ahh.. Just figured out HO.. Honest Opin..  Well lets just say that my in-depth experience living overseas for over 40 years has left my mind open to absorb different ways of thinking, so I basically will not discount Elen's thougts and try to understand through her eyes as much as this is possible.  I realize attempting to change Elen is a futile effort and I find trying to understand her better is a more interesting endeavour.

Well, if my logic is good so far, now I know why our experiences are so much different. My RWDMA's attitude and views on the subject are very much different that Elen's and presumably your wife's. And again, although American, you live in Italy with your Russian wife?

Yes, our experiences are different and my wife is definitely not RWDMA.  Emigrating was the last thing on her mind when we met, was, and still is quite fond and proud of her homeland.. after all they did put the first man in space LOL.  Over the years she has learned to accept our home as 'home' and really likes it here.  Most of our close friends are IT/RW couples, none of which are RWDMA. All met in rather 'normal' circumstances, married and three of the four couples have young kids together.

Also, I see in the "Ice Breaker" section where your Russian Wife is probably a good ten years older than mine, had been married before, and you both already had children of your own. MY Olga would have never suggested or encouraged me to spend time with her living in together in Ukraine to further observe each other's behavior and habits before going the next step. And if I had suggested it, she would have probably agreed to do it, but thought it a silly waste of time. Presumably your wife thought it was a good idea, and it worked for you.

Well if your wife is 18 then she would be 10 years younger than my wife..    Actually my wife never suggested or insisted I spend time with her and her family in RU.  It was a very natural occurrence.  I had the time, was interested in all things RU and felt it would be worthwhile to get a feel for life in RU and the family dynamics involved.  As with my past relationships I have found that a true relationship with the in-laws is a valuable asset indeed.. after all I was whisking their daughter and granddaughter out of the country if you get my jist..  Building such relationships do take a little time.

Where am I going with all of this? I'm trying to say that, as Elen points out, there are RWDMA and RW. And there are RW who are married to Westerners who really haven't crossed the line to RWDMA. (And may never.) We know RW's married to Western men, living in the USA, who have absolutely no intention of becoming full-fledged RWDMA. They just want the better lifestyle without the full commitment. In fact, I would say that more than half of the Russian-American couples we know are like that. And those RW are pretty outspoken and critical of the West, very defensive of FSU, very much like Elen. I personally; could not be married to somebody like this. Would not tolerate it. And my advice to other guys is if that is the only kind of Russian woman you can get, you are better off staying single.

For the guy who does not have much time or interest in RU culture and mentality I would agree with you.  In no way do I regret my decision for a true, blue pure RW.  Nor do I criticize those who chooose the RWDMA route.. knowing your limitations is half the battle in this quest.  Only problem is I get a sneaky feeling that some and maybe many RWDMA are RW in disguise.. this would likely explain some of the intrarpersonal difficulties we see described every now and then.

Don't get me wrong, BC. I'm not trying to guess or say whether your Russian wife is RW or RWDMA, or yours is one of those half-committed marriages I have described. Sounds to me like you two are enjoying a nice place in the middle; perhaps the best of both worlds. Does you Russian wife speak Italian? Olga and I often think of trying to live in Spain, but Olga is worried about having to learn yet another language. Interesting that I really think she likes and prefers living right here in California USA.

No guessing needed.. she is RW.  I don't recall your 'half-committed' descriptions so can't really give input here unless you provide some more detail..  As to our marriage, I would describe it as totally committed.

Yes my wife has also learned Italian and can get around quite well.  It is quite interesting around here as we have no common language between family members.  I usually speak English with my wife, Italian with our daughter, German with my grown son and Russian with our toddler (I figure if I can keep up with his Russian I will be fluent in a couple years). No biggie with lots of advantages.  Makes for interesting dinner table conversation.  Guests esp. from USA are flabbergasted.

My final point is that just because us "married guys" have all managed to stay married to Russian women and consider ourselves to be happy, our experiences, situations, and our women are probably very much different. We probably shouldn't spend time puzzling over why one successfully married guy's experience or view is so much different than another's. What is of more value is each particular individual's background, age, and immediate situation - both the RW/RWDMA and the WM.

Maybe I can poke you a bit and surmise that RWDMA today will be no different than AW tomorrow?  If so I'll gladly stick with my RW.

Oh and BTW I think Elen is a very valuable member of this forum from my POV.

[Elen]

  Thank BC that you brought my attention to this almost my "personal" thread Truth tell I missed it

Well a few months ago I would not have troubles to answer all your questions about who I was. But life in internet  has taught me very fast ( and in rather unpleasant way) to keep my mouth closed because ANYTHING I told about myself could be used like "the last" low argument in discussions with me ( never mind what topics of those discussions could be)

So I'll think if I have a wish to satisfy your curiosity in PM or I preffer to leave you to die in guessing about who I am 

Well I can post some neutral information for you here

- I have never been in the USA ( but I have close friends ( Russian family)  who moved there  last year  Also I have relatives ( not so closed now though) in my family who worked in the USA for rather long period in soviet times

- I don't "dissaprove" of Russian Women who Decide to Marry Abroad
 I just don't believe that all those troubles and sacrifices which would be for sure in this process worth the end results ( there always exception to the rule of course)  But it's personal business of those women My personal business is to wonder at their actions

- I'm loyal to Mother Russia ( why should not I after all? ) and have no intention of marrying a foreigner and leaving Russia.  But I would follow my husband anywhere - even to the USA 

- I "represent" a group of Russian Women (RW) who have enough businesses here in Russia and therefore an idea to move abroad didn't ever cross their minds

- And I didn't get what I  "resent" there  ( just pure troubles with translation  )

- No comment why I 'm here ( may be in private if I'll be in proper mood  )

- My "mission" is to prevent you to post your BS about life HERE in Russia  in past, in present and in future 

- I have no "personal"  issue with any foreigner who broke somebody's heart 

- I do realize what exactly propose you are for here. Now let you do the same about myself  I don't take your words like an offer to get out of here in order to not spoil your business. Though you could get rid off me only banning me  - nothing else would have an effect on me

- Yes most of time I'm here because of "boring" and a need to take a break from my job and routine life. And as I have unlimited access to internet boards where I could chatting and arguing are fine for those breaks

- Darling, you think too many about yourself if an idea that I had any "plans" to marry you crossed your mind. You should not drink such many vodka 

- Try to find and SHOW me  WHERE I was too critical ( if only I was at all)  about the LIFE in the West. ( western politic OUTSIDE your borders does not count - I have any right to critciize it)  It's just a problem with many Americans - they take any defence of the FSU  like a critic of the USA

 And stop make any comparisons a-ka "much like Elen" - you know nothing about me till now  BTW to the end of typing this post I changed my mind so don't expect any PM from me with my "personal" information - you showed not enough respect to my lovely person to be "awarded" with it      Вот так-то

[beattledog]

I, think, that we, as American males, desire a woman who loves and cherishes us.  Many males are looking for the American woman of the fifties and sixties, who adored her husband .  My parents met, and married six weeks later. they will be married 60 years in October. American males are looking for this kind of devotion and love between the two people.  We are looking for the woman of the American values of this era, and not a woman who is concerned only about material goods, her career, etc.  This board should be most happy.   This is my longest post to date

Beattledog

[jb]

beattledog,

I'm not so sure you will find that 50's-60's American June Clever type of woman in the FSU either. I'm not so certain she exists anywhere in the world today.  However, you will find no woman in the whole world more head strong than a ethnic Russian, if you marry one and turn your back on her for 2 minutes when you turn around she will be trying on your trousers.  These are not meek and mild Barbie dolls.

Be very careful of what you wish for, you might get it.

[BC]

This is my longest post to date

Beattledog

Quite refreshing Beattledog.

[docetae]

I, think, that we, as American males, desire a woman who loves and cherishes us.  Many males are looking for the American woman of the fifties and sixties, who adored her husband .  My parents met, and married six weeks later. they will be married 60 years in October. American males are looking for this kind of devotion and love between the two people.  We are looking for the woman of the American values of this era, and not a woman who is concerned only about material goods, her career, etc.  This board should be most happy.   This is my longest post to date

Beattledog

You should try LDS church (or perhaps LSD ) , you will have probably more chance to find the woman you want ... There is not a single type of woman in Russia or Ukraine on the dating scene... but what I found as common denominator, they are all very proud and have a lot of will. Russia or Ukraine is the last place I will go if I want to find an housewife ...

[Bruno]

That leads me to wanting to know why you are here.

Really, who care about why Elen is here... the message is more important... of course she is not seeking a foreign man... BUT, if you need to imagine how the mother of your futur bride will react, Elen is the perfect example... Elen is a mother like your have million in Russia. What she think, million of other think it... You can maybe choose the bride, but you cannot choose the mother of the bride... be ready to meet mother like Elen.

So, read post from Elen, reply if you are not afraid... and learn to understand how your futur mother in law can think... Maybe some need to be remember the Doug ( photoguy ) story... where family was one of the main reason for the return in Ukraine... Never underestimate the power of FSU family...

[Gator]

Agree with JB.  I know a couple of RW whose drive, energy and ambition put AW to shame. 

Actually, there may be some RW who would be sweetly contented with staying at home and devoting their lives to their man and family.  I do not know because I never looked for such woman.   But you can be sure this sweet woman has a strong core interior, tempered by generations of a difficult life.  God help you if you fail her.   And behind that pretty face is skepticism, again a result of natural selection in a rotten society.  So, know your woman!

Bruno,  Good point.  Elen is intelligent, and RW have above-average intelligence.  And Elen seems to have those qualities that JB and I listed.

I do not know if Elen is Mother-in-Law age as you implied.  However, her age really does not matter.  Your statement may end her silence about her age, or otherwise we have this picture in our mind of her sitting on a bench if front of her apartment chewing sunflower seeds with stockings rolled down below her knees.

[Elen]

I was trained by KGB to keep my tongue behind my teeth  so I would not fall in such tricks - let you believe in what you want   - I'm old babushka at a bench with sunflower seedsand lap top 

[BillyB]

So, read post from Elen, reply if you are not afraid... and learn to understand how your futur mother in law can think...

Is Elen's daughter available to marry? If you can't marry Elen, then you could have the second best thing, have Elen as your mother in law.

Guys, make sure the woman you marry is happy with the country you live in. Don't bring her to a place she's unhappy with.

[Elen]

Guys, make sure the woman you marry is happy with the country you live in. Don't bring her to a place she's unhappy with.

She would happy in majority case with your country if you don't tell BS about her own country Especially god forbid you to remind her for once that you "rescued" her from that black whole where she lived

[Turboguy]

jb,  I have to agree with you, june Cleaver was definately not an FSU gal. I do think though that many FSU women posess some of the qualities we associate with old fashioned values. Devotion to their children and family, a good work ethic and concern with homelie or making a cozy home as they word it are the first things that come to my mind.

Beattle,  what got into you. I did't think I would ever see you in such a talkative mood. You get my vote for the person who will pass both jb and bruno for the most posts.

[Photo Guy]

Elen is one of the best resources of RWD. She brings us a personality that is SO Russian.
Many of the RW that we know are a lot like her.  I like her ironic sense of humor, her
direct language, and her opinions add an interesting dimension to RWD. (Larisa's
unexpected enjoyment of boxing matches comes to mind) No, you may not find
1959's June Cleaver over there in the FSU. Probably not. If you make a mistake
with your FSUW, you will probably hear about it and the voice wil be clear and strong.
In the last year, I have sent Elen and other FSUW occasional PM's. If you do that, treat
them with respect and they will do the same for you. Their ideas are so valuable
because they have the luxury of being able to offer you an opinion with worrying
about how it will affect 'The Relationship'. Your wife or girlfriend does not have
that total freedom. Elen brings us a nice close look at a contemporary individual
immersed in Russian culture, rather than a close look at a potential wife who has
her eyes on a foreign horizon.

[Photo Guy]

BillyB wrote:
Guys, make sure the woman you marry is happy with the country you live in. Don't bring her to a place she's unhappy with.

Billy, that's a good idea, but... In most scenarios, the western guy finds the 'right' woman. They decide to marry.
Then she arrives here in the West. Love and romance happen BEFORE she finds out whether or not
she is happy with her new environment, her new country. So how does a guy find out if she will
be happy in the country you live in?

[BillyB]

So how does a guy find out if she will be happy in the country you live in?

With communication. Ask a woman what her attitudes to your country are and what she thinks of the people who live there. My fiancee's answer to me was that people from her country aspire to be like Americans, free and successful. Now of course not all Uzbeks are thinking that and of course not all Americans are decent people but her overall view of America, real or perceived, is positive. One can also ask a woman's friends what they think of America. People usually hang out with the people who think alike.

[catzenmouse]

Beattle,  what got into you. I did't think I would ever see you in such a talkative mood. You get my vote for the person who will pass both jb and bruno for the most posts.

You got there before me TG! That was like what, 5 sentences?! Yup, I see the 3000 post mark coming up just around the corner... 

Re: On topic
"So how does a guy find out if she will be happy in the country you live in?"

Yes, communication plays a major part in it but until she is here and spends some real time here you really just don't know how she will react to the lifestyle, the people, the culture, etc. You hope that you and she have talked about it enough and you hope that she is strong enough and flexible enough to make this major adjustment but the reality of it is: you just don't really know until it happens.

Ken
 

[Wild Orchid*]

I, think, that we, as American males, desire a woman who loves and cherishes us.  Many males are looking for the American woman of the fifties and sixties, who adored her husband .  My parents met, and married six weeks later. they will be married 60 years in October. American males are looking for this kind of devotion and love between the two people.  We are looking for the woman of the American values of this era, and not a woman who is concerned only about material goods, her career, etc.  This board should be most happy.   This is my longest post to date

Beattledog

Do such women exist in Russia in this new millennium? Your women of 50-s and 60-s were a housewives and nothing else. Russia started to have it’s own housewives just now. I watched Oprah other day and they were discussing the subject about how lives of modern women are different from the lives of their mothers. Mothers were staying at home moms and now most women have to jiggle jobs, homes and kids. I was laughing. I’m 40 and our mothers never stayed at home. My mom had 3 children, full-time job sometimes working 6 days a week and was doing just fine. Nobody thought that she was some sort of special heroine, because there were millions like her… And now women with all those ready to eat meals, washing and dishwashing machines complain about their exhausting life… What a joke! 

[Maxx2]

I had classic 1950's parents. When dad passed away in '98 mom started her own tayloring business with all the professional equipment. I asked mom now 77 and still running her business if she misses dad. She said sometimes but she reminds herslf that with dad around she wouldn't be able to do the things she does now even her business. Remember 50's and 60's wives had husbands keeping them down. They were not mean about in many cases it's just they expected the wife to do certain wifely duties and one of them was to wait upon them hand and foot. IMO most men you look for a RW as a wife are looking for a partner not a housekeeper or 50's and 60's wife.

I would recomend though looking for a wife that is as harmless as a 50's and 60's wife....

In regards to Elen's background. There was a minor happening to someone she knew that peaked Elen's curiosity about this whole MOB affair. That brought her to these message boards. She's been trapped here ever since.


Maxx

[Son of Clyde]

  However, you will find no woman in the whole world more head strong than a ethnic Russian, if you marry one and turn your back on her for 2 minutes when you turn around she will be trying on your trousers.  These are not meek and mild Barbie dolls.

I had to chuckle at this statement. Very true and it is why I was attracted to her. Decent family values, survival instinct, compassion. You might find more Roseanne than June Cleaver. Attractive women who take no crap.

[TexasBoar]

Roseanne?     



I thought she'd be more of an example of everything wrong with the worst AW have to offer: overweight, ugly, unkempt, stupid, crass, lowbrow, bitter, sarcastic, anti-male . . . 

~Boar

[Son of Clyde]

Well certainly not June Cleaver.

[TexasBoar]

June was on Valium, according to the feminazi propaganda. 

But I think Beatledog is grasping at expressing something I've come across in the description of RW on this and other fora: that they enjoy being women, and like men to be men, and are not constantly overcompensating for their lack of testicles, metaphorically speaking, by chopping off ours.

If that's an accurate description, it is part of what has piqued my own interest as well.  One thing that I've found unfortunate with AW attitudes in general is the widespread, socially-reinforced belief that all men as a class universally oppress all women as a class.  Or, in the popular vernacular, "all men are pigs." 

Not that I don't have my moments, mind you. 

~Boar

[Elen]

Or, in the popular vernacular, "all men are pigs." 

~Boar

Would you feel yourself better with Russian women if I tell you that the popular russian vernacular sounds like "all men are goats " 

[Taz]

Where am I going with all of this? I'm trying to say that, as Elen points out, there are RWDMA and RW. And there are RW who are married to Westerners who really haven't crossed the line to RWDMA. (And may never.) We know RW's married to Western men, living in the USA, who have absolutely no intention of becoming full-fledged RWDMA. They just want the better lifestyle without the full commitment. In fact, I would say that more than half of the Russian-American couples we know are like that. And those RW are pretty outspoken and critical of the West, very defensive of FSU, very much like Elen. I personally; could not be married to somebody like this. Would not tolerate it. And my advice to other guys is if that is the only kind of Russian woman you can get, you are better off staying single.
DS (WM)

Doug- ain't that the truth. It would be better to stay single than to marry a woman like Elen or have her for a mother-in-law who would insert herself into your affairs at every turn. It is women like this who would be the driving reason for a Russian man to look elsewhere. Unfortunately most foreigners don't see this part because they don't speak the language or understand the dynamics of the family. If you are not a strong man, the Russian woman will try to run the relationship all the time. They will nag you, hen peck you, etc. if they don't think you are up to the task even if you are. If they don't think you are doing enough they will do it too. God forbid if you nag them back. Perhaps some of you know the term "fish wife"; Elen would be the epitome of that.

Thankfully there are a lot of women not like Elen there. If they were all like her, there would be no reason to go. She apparently has no life so she incessantly posts here and on other RW forums. Problem is most people won't challenge her views. Sometimes she is right, sometimes not, but it always has her spin on it rather than being objective. Her viewpoints are often-based on self-selecting samples. She is obviously an uber patriot which isn't very healthy. In her eyes there is no wrong with Russia and America is filled with problems. Sadly Russia has more issues they are just well hidden from the average tourist.

It is good that the average tourist doesn't have to deal with the third world aspects of Russia. For example Russia has a serious problem with HIV and AIDS and is doing virtually nothing about it. Some experts forecast that by they year 2010, 10% of the Russian adult population will have AIDS. Russia is notoriously bad about accurate reporting of these things and the real stats may be worse. The number of people officially registered with HIV/AIDS in the Russian Federation has increased almost 100-fold in just eight years! Ukraine's rate of progress is not really better. Ten years ago, Ukraine only had 183 registered cases of HIV; by mid-2004 there were more than 68,000! Unlike the US where HIV and AIDS seems to be centralized more in blacks, it is across the board in Russia. For more info look up the UNAIDS reports.

If you are going to Russia and plan to have sex with a woman there, I'd definitely be more careful about STD's such as AIDS. Often one man will sleep with many women there in sort of a rooster in a hen-house situation. Drugs are a rising issue in Russa and IDU was a primary cause of the increase in AIDS cases at first but not it has spilled out more into the general population. So what is Russia doing with all the money they get from selling oil and gas and weapons to terrorists? Obviously not spending it on AIDS prevention.

So in the pursuit of RW, be extra careful if they are under 30. That means you don't have to worry about Elen at all if you she was your target of opportunity. She is definitely mid-40's at a minimum. After reading Elen's posts it is understandable why Russian men on average die at about 59. Sadly Russia ranks about 65th on the human development index. That puts it even below Mexico and is considered a "Medium Human Development". Sadly even Cuba outranks it along with many South American countries. I am sure Elen will tell you different. I am just quoting from the UN reports. A good RW is worth the effort. If you catch an Elen, follow the catch and release guideline that most states recommend.