Money changes everything

[Lily]

Patagonie, excellent, excellent post! IMHO one of the best, if not the best, on the forum! 

[Patagonie]

Patagonie, excellent, excellent post! IMHO one of the best, if not the best, on the forum!  

Thank you, i'm very proud of your compliment Lily. My ex girlfriend had considered this letter as a gift and said "Absolutely agree with you that your letter is a gift as I dont think that many people can put their thoughts on a paper in so clear way."

I wished to highlight the darkness arround the money question and how in fact, like a lot of situation when a lot of misunderstandings appears, it's a big cause of pain in the relationship between FSU women an WM. At my opinion their is a BIG lack of knowledge and information among the FSU women about what i've explained in this letter.
Really with all my experience i really realize how a lot of FSU people are not understanding the important issue because of this unspoken. Just two examples :
My interpreter : three years of interpret for mainly USA guys was believing that the US middle class is guys who are earning
5000-6000 $   . Why ? because this in average what the guys are earning when they come in Ukraine. In fact we are already on the top 26 % and this for a household (two earners !).
The sister of one of my ex-girl friend lives in UK, their household is around 10000 euros per month : she considers her couple as middle class !   In fact they are in the top 1% of the UK household.

So there is a missing rôle all around this international dating (fortunately this forum is really a big help) : the rôle to set expectations under the reality. And really i think it's the rôle of independant interpreters, honest agencies and warned women in the forums to tell to all of these FSU women : see my previous post (letter). Really, less pain, less false expectation, more honesty...... And we are engaged in sort of really depleasant race (see the adventure of our Meo fellow with Anasasia BS money maker), wich really is destroying the mosts important things in the world : humans relations.

[Anotherkiwi]

Well, my 16 y.o daughter goes to school 6 days a week and has about 15 subjects including physical education and handycraft classes.
She has  from 5 to 6 lessons a day: Algebra (3 hrs), Geometry (2 hrs), Russian (3 hrs), Literature (2 hrs), English (2 hrs), Physics (3 hrs), chemistry (3 hrs), Biology (2 hrs) History (3 hrs), Drawing (1 hrs), Geography (2 hrs), social studies, basic life safety...about 30 hrs a week in total. She also took 4 hrs dance classes every day.
Perhaps the girl you are talking about takes some additional classes but that's an average timetable for this age and believe me if they do their homework they remember everything . They will have less subject but more hours for each of them during the last 2 years at school. Our school time table was almost the same and I was doing good as i remember..lol
Hope my reply made something clear

Thanks Molly - that's much appreciated.  Does the school curriculum vary much from one region to another (the girl I wrote about lives in Naberezhnye Chelny, Tatarstan), or is it pretty standardised across Russia?

[molly35ru]

You are welcome, Anotherkiwi  . I don't think they vary very much.

[Muzh]

Thanks Molly - that's much appreciated.  Does the school curriculum vary much from one region to another (the girl I wrote about lives in Naberezhnye Chelny, Tatarstan), or is it pretty standardised across Russia?

Ooo you lucky dog. Those Tatar ladies are so hot looking.

[Anotherkiwi]

Ooo you lucky dog. Those Tatar ladies are so hot looking.

Maybe, but the one I went to see was Russian and basically despised most things Tatar!

[rambler]

"So what to do?   Find a RW who was born happy."

Now there is an enigma here.   For many reasons, like living in the FSU with all it's faults, the girls we meet there are typically NOT happy with their lot.   But millions are satisfied and married and settled, having as normal a life as possible in the FSU.  For some reason, the local guys have had a look over and said "Pass".   Now many girls on the agencies might think they are better than 90% of the native married population or are looking for a better life or just any guy who will commit.   On the other hand the girl might have some personality traits that are not going to endear her to any man, Russian or not. Maybe they cannot fall in love, cannot commit, cannot give up their freedom, cannot be polite, cannot budget, cannot stay sober, maybe they are frigid. Hopefully not all in one person  but you get the possible reasons why they aren't married already.

So don't fall into the traps that many have described here already, (Bravo, KenC and Patagonie), but it is virtually impossible not to. You are damned if you do spend and damned if you don't.  And you are dealing with a girl that the local guys have considered , not a keeper, or she has decided that all the guys she dated were not keepers either. So... You need to find out why.  It's not just money, but attitude to money will be a symptom and as already mentioned made the whipping boy for the above traits.

For most people in the FSU and many elsewhere,  savings are very low, salaries are mean, many small business owners are not paying salary every month, part or all is cash off the books.  So a hand to mouth mentality exists.

Your lady arrives in your country and expects you to spend your whole salary every month and or continue to spend like you did in her country and on holiday. Now if you took her to a 2 star hotel on holiday and she has married you - good for you, likely she didn't and you didn't.  I don't live hand to mouth. I need to save for a rainy day. Is that mean, greedy, things are too expensive for me?  Likely that is the judgement. 

" A Russian will spend their last penny on a friend"

True but if he only has $1000 so what? So if you have $100,000 and you don't spend it you are mean, right!? And if you do you are a fool.  The idea of a budget does not exist.  If you make cash available that means it can be spent. Today, not this month. So again you can't win. Give one day's money and you are mean, a months allowance and it is mistaken for today's allowance. Whatever the sum it is likely gone like dew in a desert. A thirsty man in a desert does not take just a sip at the waterhole. So how do you stop her behaving like a kid in a toyshop when they get to your country? That is not a rhetorical question, I just don't know. 

If we are honest, it costs a fortune to make a trip to Russia and the Ukraine and meet normal expectations. Hotels, apartments, travel, interpreters, food.... all in, easily a grand a day. She benefits by a very small fraction of that. And she likely does not realise what you are paying  in relation to your real disposable INCOME, not savings.  So it is almost impossible to clearly set expectations. Who earns a grand a day, 365/365? And if you did , would you still be looking?  Let me tell you, even if you are in the top 2% of salary earners, like over 60k in UK, you can spend yourself into the ground and it ain't gonna make any difference if you are with a local reject.

I was in Kharkov with a normal girl, one of the least avaricious I met. Virtually no English. Her  T Shirt said, quite discreetly on one hip only.  "Golddigger"  I said, do you know what that says?  "No"   and it was true she didn't.  That is about the same level of mutual understanding that you will have about many subjects, not just money.   

Another thread warned about the perceived differences in standards of living.  Lots of what we pay for through the nose are cheap or free in the FSU, so the gap is not as big as you think. So you have less disposable income in their eyes than they thought.  Mortgages are taboo, no Russian would go into debt for 20-30 years.  But a huge house costs them only 50000 instead of 500,000.  450,000 difference.  College is free, if you have to pay for it, it means you have to buy your place because your grades weren't good enough. 50000-100,000 difference.  So there is > 10 times the average salary in just two items of life. 

Quite difficult to avoid misunderstandings right? And she has left all her friends and family to find this out  ... Better make sure you both understand that the road is not with gold back home.   
 

[Ade]

One of the main problems is that men marry women they do not know. It's really quite simple.

Managing expectations is not difficult unless you are with a woman that is as dumb as plank or you are not communicating properly or perhaps, both.

This is not rocket science. Good, bad and freaking awful women exist in every country and, unfortunately, I think a disproportionate number of men end up with the freaking awful kind in the MOB business just because they 1) rush into marriage because of the costs and don't know who they are marrying and/or 2) can't communicate effectively because of the language barrier and/or 3) attribute bad behaviour to "cultural differences".

Of course, the same can be said for the good foreign women that end up with men that are a total waste of space, just swap women/men in the above.

[Misha]

Rambler, how do you come up with a grand per day for a trip to Russia?!?

[Rubicon]

He hired Eduard as his guide!! 

[Patagonie]

He hired Eduard as his guide!! 

You're a kidding boy you ! 

[2tallbill]

Money Changes Everything-

You freshmen need to think long and hard about how you will handle your money in this pursuit of a RW.  As it may be true (not always though) that you can offer your potential RW a better life in your home country, do you really want to use your financial superiority as the bait to land your future wife?  Do you want your relationship to be clouded with the concept that she is yours because of your wallet?  Or do you want a woman that loves you for your qualities as a man and a human being?  The choice is yours.  But it is a difficult choice too.

It is a much harder road to win the heart of a woman half way around the world, with your charm, romantic ways and character than it is to just overwhelm her with gifts and money.  Most men in this venture IMO take the easy way out and just dole out the cash to win the prize.  And some prize that might be if she is into your wallet more than she is into you.  Is that what you really want?

And yet it is a fine line you need to walk when it comes to the financial end of things.  Almost any woman wants to know she will have a stable life with her future husband, and that hardly is a fault.  She deserves to know that she will be provided for in a proper manner.  But you need not throw your money around like a drunken sailor either.  I would think that you would want to seek a woman that has fallen in love with you and not just signed up for a BBD. (Bigger better deal).

You also have to consider the competition.  RM are known to spend their last ruble to impress a girl.  As the financial strength of Russia grows, your dollars will be less and less impressive any way.  So you may find yourself back in the old fashion mode of just winning a woman's heart through methods other than dazzling her with your check book.  So what do you do?

Be yourself!  Would you buy an American woman a pricey pair of boots on your first date?  Of course you wouldn't!  And you would (or should) be offended if one were to ask for such a gift so early into a relationship.  Why should it be any different with a RW?  Any woman that would ask for an expensive gift early on in a relationship is not worth being with!  You need to fight the natural urge as a man to “save” the poor woman.  Remember that your goal is to develop a strong and loving relationship, not to take a shortcut and try to buy it.
KenC

Bump 2008

[ML]

I was fully aware that my financial advantage was what allowed me to 'trade up' in Eastern Europe.

However I never disclosed my specific financial situation to any woman and none asked for specifics.  I didn't dress particularly well and didn't stay in expensive apartments.

I was also fairly frugal on a daily basis when visiting with the gals or a specific gal.  I never bought expensive gifts or even flowers.

I did pay for everything when in their home cities and pay everything for trips we took to vacation locales.

[2tallbill]

"So what to do?   Find a RW who was born happy."

For many reasons, like living in the FSU with all it's faults, the girls we meet there are typically NOT happy with their lot.   But millions are satisfied and married and settled, having as normal a life as possible in the FSU.  For some reason, the local guys have had a look over and said "Pass".   Now many girls on the agencies might think they are better than 90% of the native married population or are looking for a better life or just any guy who will commit.   

The solution is to find a girl who is 35-40+ years old. There are millions of them. NONE of them
are seriously considered for marriage and a family among the local men. There is an amazing
supply and you simply need to sort through them to find a good one that is compatible with
you.

[Trenchcoat]

I was fully aware that my financial advantage was what allowed me to 'trade up' in Eastern Europe.

However I never disclosed my specific financial situation to any woman and none asked for specifics.  I didn't dress particularly well and didn't stay in expensive apartments.

I was also fairly frugal on a daily basis when visiting with the gals or a specific gal.  I never bought expensive gifts or even flowers.

I did pay for everything when in their home cities and pay everything for trips we took to vacation locales.

After all these years in the scene I think you went about it the right way ML. I definitely support the idea of keeping money out of it as much as possible. Otherwise the guy risks digging himself into a hole of always wondering if a girl holds real interest in him or what comes with him. I definitely think a walk in the local park or any other free or very cheap attraction is best. Meetups at Restaurants, Bars even Cafes I would now leave out of it, they are only helpful if you want to get your leg over but not so much for finding those girls that wish to genuinely date you. Same with expensive gear, good to attract women for interest but likely to make it harder to determine which girls are genuinely into you.

As to the girl, where to find?

For sure as 2tallbill suggests the older the girl, moreso the 35-40 + girls are likely to yield more serious and genuine girls. No guarantees but most of them are likely too, whether they are the girls the western guy is looking for is another matter. Shifting and sorting many and meeting the girl and finding how she sits with you rather than merely focusing on photos can bear fruit. People after all can come across better in person than in a photo and a person's character is important in any girl who is brought up. A bad character in a girl is a bad place to get in terms of relationships.

That all said people vary a great deal. Competition is important, most girls who have been passed over by the local market is for a reason. It may or may not be a reason that is so bad or can't be alleviated. Sometimes guys all take against a girl for the same reason, sometimes it is valid enough sometimes it is an overaction or they see other local girls who they can get with easy without such issues. Issues may vary a lot and as said people vary a great deal which is why I say the western guy looking abroad doesn't necessarily have to focus exclusively on a certain age group but be aware to what he is dredging up whatever the girl in whatever age group.

[CaptB]

With my wife....money was never an issue. Originally ....I was was only hiring her as a "guide/interpreter".  I found her on a dating site...."TrueLoves.com". (no longer in business). She lived in the city of Stavropol, Russia. Finding a women from Russia had only become a small reason for visiting Russia. My first trip to Russia was only 20% dating .....but finally realizing a dream to visit Russia.....about 80%. I had located a magazine......Russian Life.......at this time. A story with beautiful photos caught my attention. The piece was about "Stavropol, Russia". I used different dating sites to locate "non-agency" interpreters and guides. My wife's profile caught my eye because she was from Stavropol....and because she taught English for a dozen years at an international language institute. I found her profile about four months before I planned to visit. We had a few emails to start. But after a few weeks we set-up a time for a phone call. The first phone call lasted about 20 minutes. The next phone call was about two weeks later..... and lasted about 1/2 hour. A month before I was to visit......our calls were daily and lasted 20 minutes to and hour or so.


She had a friend's husband....yuri....take her to the airport to pick me up. 5'2".........110 lbs......with a cute leather hat....I knew instantly something was there. She had found me an apartment to lease for three weeks. We ent to the apartment....and immediately I wanted to settle-up on the rent money. Previously I offered to wire the  money but she said "no".....when I arrived would be fine. She told me to hold on to it because the landlord was out of town for a few days.


A side note: I really liked my earlier experience with Lifetime Partners in Tver, Russia...........................BUT........upon leaving....a significant number of their interpreters  seemed to barter for a monthly stipend to support the "new girlfriends". I paid the first month....an amount.......then contacted LTP's office manager for advice. She stated "NO !!!!!!!!" this is not normal. I thanked her. Later I realized "why would I just hand over cash because we were dating ? Did she not already have an income (work). Did I hand over cash to my American dates (well maybe a hooker).


Of course I would always reimburse for anything she arranged for me (rent, special activities etc). The truth is.....she always wanted to pay her own way. I was fortunate enough to meet he boss, co-workers and dozens of her friends. When you meet all of these people......and their praise of her makes you feel like you are lucky to even have a date with her..........unless you are stupid.........these are things of real worth. Even after we were engaged I had to prod here to let me reimburse her
for things. Trust.....wast really the first thing we developed. Money was never really an issue.......ever.


Capt B