Money changes everything

[Misha]

She suggested we go to dinner at Patio Pizza, an inexpensive salad bar restaurant in Moscow.  (Gator has posted that even this place is now expensive, but I am speaking of 10 years ago) 

Just a short off topic comment: I ate at the Patio Pizza in 1997 and I liked it back then: the prices were decent and the service was actually quite good. Now, I find that all the prices in Moscow are hyperinflated and you are not getting your money's worth (one reason why I like to avoid Moscow at the present).

[AnastassiaAsh]

This is not common knowledge to me.  While I am sure there are many good Russian Universities, I have also heard that corruption exists also in educational system.  Not saying there are not paper mills here in the US but when comparing overall educational system, I have trouble believing that it is that much superior to the one here in the US.  Am I out of touch???

Well, sorry, but i think you are. Search some threads on this topic here and you will see I might be closer to the truth. Everything you said exists, it is true, but in general education system is better there. I knew it before, I can see it now too.

KenC, that 'pizza' story is famous and is your or Lena's 'signature'  , you wrote about it before. Poor girl had to tolerate your miscalculations...   

[KenC]

Well, sorry, but i think you are. Search some threads on this topic here and you will see I might be closer to the truth. Everything you said exists, it is true, but in general education system is better there. I knew it before, I can see it now too.

KenC, that 'pizza' story is famous and is your or Lena's 'signature'  , you wrote about it before. Poor girl had to tolerate your miscalculations...   

Anastassia,
I know, an old man's syndrome of repeating his favorite stories! 

But I would like to make the point that it really isn't too difficult to understand who your gf or bf really is, if you take your time and pay attention.  This thread has been very informative and many people have been able to give their input over the 30 pages.  The most important issue to me, is that the couple see eye to eye on finances.  There is no ultimate right or wrong here as long as the couple are in harmony.
KenC

[oldernotwiser]

Anastasia

I have read a couple of threads on educational system and I remain unconvinced.  I think I could make strong argument that educational system in US is at least equal to if not superior to that of FSU.  I don't think I want to go there though.

On the money topic I agree most with thoughts like this is possible for many different people and different levels of income.  You do need enough income to pay for some necessary expenses that will be incurred during this process, also you need to give enough disclosure to a potential mate so that she would know what type of life to expect if she would come to another country.  I am sure there would be enough change without shock of finding the situation your in not what you expected at all.

[Misha]

Everything you said exists, it is true, but in general education system is better there. I knew it before, I can see it now too.

Define better? I won't go into the details, but I find that Russians somewhat idealize their education system as "better" but it does not always match the reality. Russian schools put a lot more emphasis on rote memorization, North American schools on creativity and independent critical thought. Each has its merits, but I would disagree that Russian schools and their graduates are somehow better than those of Europe and North America.

Here is another case: Japanese universities. It is known that student spend many years cramming and studying in order to get into the right university. Their entrance exams would certainly make some Ivy League university students cry. However, once they are in university, Japanese students can relax. University is seen as four years of relative freedom and relaxation before the grind of work. At the end things balance out.

[AnastassiaAsh]

 

 I don’t exclude that most of the time you make a decision based on communication with those people that life connected you to.

I meant the level of education when we compare specialists from the same area, universities, colleges. Specialists in the US operate in too narrow fields than in Russia. Russian specialists will know more in adjacent areas. More over because universities curriculum always included subjects of general education like politics, economy…irrespective of the fact whether it was the faculty of humanities or a technical one, therefore the graduate as a rule usually had much various information on various aspects of human knowledge. Sadly over the past few years the shift has reversed.  The general educational levels of a high school graduate of Russia and the US, especially 10 years ago, were incomparable. In the US of course there are great results but mostly it is about private schools. In Russia big portions of resources were allocated traditionally for a secondary education. General requirements in Russian high school are equal to first two years of American colleges.  Also music schools where you could get very good music education charged symbolic fees, the same goes for art school, sports schools and so on. But with a free market economy situation started changing unfortunately.
Most women you are after lived their lives in that era, so that’s why most of those women are highly educated indeed. Also the good news for you is that in the end we all will be the same. But you will have to wait for awhile. 

[Misha]

However, don't forget that students are quickly streamed in Russia. A student who does not show great academic aptitude will be quickly shuffled over to a trade school even before they finish what we would consider a high school level education.

[Bluebell]

... why an average median western life would not be good enough for the average FSUW, when it would be a pretty nice improvement to their current living situation in most of the cases.
I'm with AJ on this one - it just seems odd when you really think about it.

To find the answer to this question, first you need to draw the portrait of the women from the international dating area. As here we are talking about average, good and honest women, we should try to avoid including common traits of golddiggers, scammers or women with agenda. I will start the list with a few traits, you are welcome to complete it:

- adventureous, in the positive sense of the word
- open to new experiences, new knowledges, ready to get to know foreign people and cultures,
- independent
- likes to travel
- educated
- sophisticated to some degree
- ambitious
- with the mentality rather of a city than village girl, even if she is originally from a village
- already speak a foreign language or have the desire to learn, in some cases, already travelled abroad

From the above list (which is, I am sure, much longer and can be more accurate) you can see that except financially, this is not exactly the portrait of an average person. Such people are more active, resilient, focused on their goals and are not afraid of trying new things. As such, they aim higher and higher until they achieve the desired position, status, finances, self-improvement, etc. Marrying higher has been a common practice for women since forever, of course, they will seek to do that in case of a foreign marriage too.
Then there is still another important aspect to consider. Not the sacrifice, but the guilty conscious for leaving family, homeland for a foreign man. That man better worth it and usually a man with good financial situation has some value in the eyes of most people  
-

[Misha]

When it comes to quality of education, I would like to add least some quantitative data. The OECD has a  Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) (see http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,3417,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html). The ranks students in terms of reading skills, science skills and math skills. Russia rankings for 2006 are pretty mediocre (Russia comes in 38th in terms of their reading scale). In terms of student performance on the science scale, Russia scores an average of 479 points, as compared to the OECD average of 500. Canada, as a point of comparison scored 534 points and the United States 489. PISA compares the performance of 15-years olds across the globe in OECD and partner countries that choose to participate in the student assessments. 

[Gator]

Bluebell,

You write very insightful posts.  I agree with your every word.  Your list describes my woman.  I would add "inquisitive" and "discusses rather than debates" which actually could be part of your Number 2.  Of course, if we were trying to define the antithesis of a golddigger or scammer, I would add other qualities.

Then there is still another important aspect to consider. Not the sacrifice, but the guilty conscious for leaving family, homeland for a foreign man.

A long time ago I discussed with an eminent British psychologist the risks of marrying a RW.  She listened attentively and said, "Do not worry so much, they have more to lose than you do.  It takes a special woman to undertake this."  Your post reminded me of that conversation.

[Gator]

The education issue is somewhat off topic, yet I have observed a parallel between the level of a RW's education and her interest in being with an educated man, especially the women educated in the Soviet days.  Education seemed more important than a man's financial power.   Maybe the youger women differ.

My only comment about education is that I believe a FSU graduate may know more facts and theories, yet an American graduate will be more creative.  If you do not believe me, just observe Russian speaking tour guides talking to their Russian tourists.   Talk, talk, talk.  No interaction.  Fact, fact, fact.  This does not stimulate a person's imagination.

Gaubaub,

it is pretty much common knowledge that once you get into Harvard, with grade inflation, it is pretty hard for a student to get less than an A.

Maybe they did such to you at Harvard.  I went to Cornell and A's were not given without earning them.

[Christian]

The education issue is somewhat off topic, yet I have observed a parallel between the level of a RW's education and her interest in being with an educated man, especially the women educated in the Soviet days.  Education seemed more important than a man's financial power.   Maybe the youger women differ.

My only comment about education is that I believe a FSU graduate may know more facts and theories, yet an American graduate will be more creative.  If you do not believe me, just observe Russian speaking tour guides talking to their Russian tourists.   Talk, talk, talk.  No interaction.  Fact, fact, fact.  This does not stimulate a person's imagination.

Gaubaub,
Maybe they did such to you at Harvard.  I went to Cornell and A's were not given without earning them.

Gator,

I recall hearing years ago Paul Harvey lament the story of a recent Harvard graduate, whose parents were quite influencial and the financial contributors to this icon of liberal, pragmatic education.  The poor kid couldn't even write a complete English sentence.

Gabaub is right in that we all have 'pegs of knowledge' from which we draw and make determinations.  Unchaste imagination leads to folly and encyclopedic info left uncultivated leaves one a geek!

I don't doubt you earned your A's at Cornell, but even Ph.D's are now a dime a dozen.  The philosophy of education in Europe is quite different from the good ole US of A.

Christian

[Misha]

Gaubaub,
Maybe they did such to you at Harvard.  I went to Cornell and A's were not given without earning them.

Again, different generation. The "standards" for grading are quite different now than they were 40, 30 or even 10 years ago.

Here is a nice piece discussing the problem of grade inflation at Harvard: http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i30/30b02401.htm.

[I/O]

She still puts a hurt on my hotel room charges with her "snack attacks" to this day!
KenC

They're all the same. Few weeks ago, high end hotel  (Not cheap) in Brisbane (Capital city in my state) I returned to the room to find her "Snacking out". She told me how good this place was and that they even provided all these treats which you seldom see in a hotel room in Russia. I did point out they come at a cost. Get this.....she filched the wrappers out of the garbage and was going to the supermarket to replace them all. When I told her that wouldn't work because they were ink chipped or however they do it and had already registered on the tab, she was horrified.................for a while. Then went right on snacking...LOL with a slightly rueful remark that perhaps she wouldn't be getting those new shoes tomorrow. I agreed.

I/O

[Jumper]

Bluebell-
great post and thank you.
 You are the first to really put a concise quantitative answer ,to the question Dave, myself ,and a few others brougnt up.

I agree, and would think being of this adventuresome spirit , would also often go hand in hand with being driven to attain higher levels in all aspects of ones life.

Not so much an *expectation* or an *entitlement* mindset,
Perhaps it could be seen as more just the nature of someone adventurous enough
to leave all behind, that they would also typically be driven to strive for more.

It's a very good point that has been overlooked a bit in 31pages..

I always felt it takes a person a bit more driven and adventurous than average,
to contemplate this, much less follow thru with it.I think those  traits would make for an  easier transition to  new culture also?
I suppose contrary to what many would do,I  did hope for someone with a more western outlook as well,but then i dint really base my search on nationality, the woman i fell for, just happened to be Russian.
Having myself relocated several times in my life to new countries and cultures, I guess not coincidently I'm naturally attracted to a type of personality that would consider it.

[Shadow]

Define better? I won't go into the details, but I find that Russians somewhat idealize their education system as "better" but it does not always match the reality. Russian schools put a lot more emphasis on rote memorization, North American schools on creativity and independent critical thought. Each has its merits, but I would disagree that Russian schools and their graduates are somehow better than those of Europe and North America.

Here is another case: Japanese universities. It is known that student spend many years cramming and studying in order to get into the right university. Their entrance exams would certainly make some Ivy League university students cry. However, once they are in university, Japanese students can relax. University is seen as four years of relative freedom and relaxation before the grind of work. At the end things balance out.

The school methods in Europe have slowly shifted from the traditional method (as in Russia) to the U.S. method, and to be honest I can not see any good in it. Instead of learning fact which allows a student to make up their own mind, they are taught how to think. the result is a mass of students with very little knowledge who believe they are right in everything they say.
Reminds me of something....

[I/O]

Reminds me of something....

A Frenchman?

I/O

[docetae]

A Frenchman?

I/O

It's a frenchman talking to a british: "I am upset by american ! they believe they are the center of the world !"
British, very flegmatic: "perhaps.."
frenchman: "Yes ! Everybody knows that we, french, are the center of the world !!!"

[Shadow]

It's a frenchman talking to a british: "I am upset by american ! they believe they are the center of the world !"
British, very flegmatic: "perhaps.."
frenchman: "Yes ! Everybody knows that we, french, are the center of the world !!!"

French talking to British is already a far fetched idea. 

[Misha]

The school methods in Europe have slowly shifted from the traditional method (as in Russia) to the U.S. method, and to be honest I can not see any good in it. Instead of learning fact which allows a student to make up their own mind, they are taught how to think. the result is a mass of students with very little knowledge who believe they are right in everything they say.

Off topic reply: Every so often I volunteer to help judge the exhibitions at a regional science fair. Some are pretty mediocre, but others are simply brilliant. I am amazed at what some kids can achieve. I even heard of one high school student developing a way of recycling old tires to make an asphalt-like surface for roads. It is even being tried out by their city to see how well it will work. Give kids a chance to think and be creative, and you will be amazed at what they can achieve.

[AnastassiaAsh]

It's a frenchman talking to a british: "I am upset by american ! they believe they are the center of the world !"
British, very flegmatic: "perhaps.."
frenchman: "Yes ! Everybody knows that we, french, are the center of the world !!!"

...said Canadian whose oil sands can soon make his country the center of the world!   

[KenC]

To find the answer to this question, first you need to draw the portrait of the women from the international dating area. As here we are talking about average, good and honest women, we should try to avoid including common traits of golddiggers, scammers or women with agenda. I will start the list with a few traits, you are welcome to complete it:

- adventureous, in the positive sense of the word
- open to new experiences, new knowledges, ready to get to know foreign people and cultures,
- independent
- likes to travel
- educated
- sophisticated to some degree
- ambitious
- with the mentality rather of a city than village girl, even if she is originally from a village
- already speak a foreign language or have the desire to learn, in some cases, already travelled abroad

From the above list (which is, I am sure, much longer and can be more accurate) you can see that except financially, this is not exactly the portrait of an average person. Such people are more active, resilient, focused on their goals and are not afraid of trying new things. As such, they aim higher and higher until they achieve the desired position, status, finances, self-improvement, etc. Marrying higher has been a common practice for women since forever, of course, they will seek to do that in case of a foreign marriage too.
Then there is still another important aspect to consider. Not the sacrifice, but the guilty conscious for leaving family, homeland for a foreign man. That man better worth it and usually a man with good financial situation has some value in the eyes of most people  
-

So is it your premise that because of the character traits most commonly found in RW that consider relocation their finaincial expectations are higher than the average RW?  Does everyone agree with this?
KenC

[Misha]

I am the exception in many ways: she did not speak any English as I speak Russian. As noted, she was not looking for a foreigner. She fits most of the other traits, however, but she is very frugal and was not looking for a very wealthy man. It amazes me how much I don't spend with her! We are now making our own kefir and our own tvorog (sorry, these are hard to translate into Russian. Kefir is somewhat close to a liquid plain yoghurt and tvorog is a very soft cheese). If we had a bit of pasture and a cow we would be self-sufficient by now  My wife also married for the man and not the country: it frustrates her in that it is such a long process to learn English and she worries how long it will take before she has the language skills required to work in her profession in Canada.

[Gator]

Bluebell,

That man better worth it and usually a man with good financial situation has some value in the eyes of most people  

KenC,

So is it your premise that because of the character traits most commonly found in RW that consider relocation their finaincial expectations are higher than the average RW?  Does everyone agree with this?

Best to let Bluebell answer if your rephrasing is what she intended.   As I see it, Bluebell's statement overlaps your rephrasing of her statement, yet there are some differences.   I inferred that Bluebell is saying that a man who would convince a RW to move to another country has many ideal qualities, one of the more important being financial security.  

Nevertheless, KenC, I agree that the average emigrating RW have higher financial expectations than the RW remaining in the FSU.  The RW who choose not to leave their family and friends perhaps have similar financial goals of those emigrating, yet they are more accepting of the economic situation in their homeland.  Contented?  No, but nothing is perfect.

[Bluebell]

Gator and AJ, thank you for your appreciative words 

I don't really like using words like financial expectations,  deserving and being entitled for when describing women's desire for a certain financial stability at choosing a marriage candidate,  it can be easily misinterpreted.

KenC, these qualities along with others, like being intelligent, active, inquisitive, perseverent will ensure these ladies a better fiancial position created by themselves back home in Russia too,  if economic conditions are right. They will not look for less than themselves, and in better economic countries their equals are successful men. To stay within the boundries of realities I define successful man as one who has a stable income and can ensure a comfortable lifestyle for his family.

What I am saying here is what basically Anastassia said, except that in my view good women don't expect a better life/wealthier husband based on what they think they are, or what they feel entitled for, but they are active parts of this quest and will use their qualities to achieve their goals.