Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[kens1958]

Hello, Im a tipical nice American man. I am financilay secure. I recently visited Ukraine and met many Ukraine girls. One girl I met in Odessa ... grabed my heart and attention... so after a week of dinners with many other woman .. I went off to Nikolaev where the girl of my dreams lived.... we had lots of fun and later I took her and her sister to Yalta for a few days...I danced until 4:30 am with her sister as my girl-friend wached... Every day I gave my girl friend frech roses... also I took many photos and I put some in frames and presented them to her after she let me know that she would like that.... My girl friend was maried once before and she has a child... I befriended her child and brought presents for her child......
My questions come from the fact that my girl friend only kissed me 3 times in a week and a half being together... and she never introduced me to her parents..... I am now back in America and we talk almost daily on the phone..... on a few ocations she has gon to an internet caffee and we chated on web cam from 9pm her time untill she went to work the next day at 8am... sometimes her father wil come to the agency and pick her up......Now when we talk she blows me kisses over the phone and she says I am her best friend... and she respects me a lot.....I am going back to Ukraine in septembar -october.... to see my girl friend.... she insist that we must know each other a year before we can talk of marige.... and she insist no sex before marige.... she says the only man she has ever been with was her first husband... and that there have been no other since..... we talk and she is reluctant to leave Ukraine and live in America..... she ask me to move to Ukraine..... I have a good business and I could not have nearly the same success in Ukraine...AT times I have amazing understanding and comunication with this girl and there are many times when I like and respect her tremendusly........ she is in many ways great wife material....... but still I have my questions? 
I have many girls in Ukraine that are asking me for my attention and would gladly spend time with me ..... and are looking for faster romance....... but I am a simple man when it comes to woman , and I realy only want one woman in my life..... so I am trying to figure out if the one I am investing time, energy and resources in is for real... or if she is playing it cool should I just realize that the atraction is not strong enough for her twords me ... and just move on?

[Muddy]

There are 15+ scam agencies in the small city of Nikolaev.

[JR]

Welcome to the board.

If she doesn't want to leave home, friends, family and way of life you're in for a long hard road ahead of you. That longing for her "home" will manifest itself into every aspect of your relationship. And it won't be in a good way. Don't understimate what a woman goes thru when she leaves EVERYTHING familiar to her. Don't go around telling yourself it will all work itself out. This one subject requires A LOT of attention.

I refused to marry my ex-wife until she had been here and seen my life and country. You may want to talk about her coming on a tourist visa for a visit. She may have a change of heart but if not most likely won't work long term.

How did you meet her? It sounds like she never had it in mind to marry a foreigner.

I am very suspect of her not wanting intamacy until marriage after she has already been married. And she only kissed you three times while you were there? I don't know about that...

 

[Faux Pas]

I am a simple man when it comes to woman , and I realy only want one woman in my life..... so I am trying to figure out if the one I am investing time, energy and resources in is for real... or if she is playing it cool should I just realize that the atraction is not strong enough for her twords me ... and just move on?

Welcome kens1958!

Ken nobody can answer those questions with any certainty but, you. You didn't mention any previous dating experience to the lady in question. There is a question you can honestly ask and answer yourself. Are you getting back all the same attention and emotion that you are giving? Is she really into you?

In this regard, dating women from Ukraine is the very same as dating in your hometown. Is this the caliber of lady you'd normally date or a large stretch? It is no different and if you need to ask these questions here, you have ample reason for caution. You've already said you provided her and her sister with a nice vacation. Are you buying her nice gifts or providing any cash payments? Was that really her sister or her father?

There are as many flags in your story as urine puddles at a Frat house kegger. That doesn't mean anything and could mean everything. I'm not saying she's bad but, you really need to examine and be honest with yourself.

You seem like a nice guy and I wish you the best of luck.

[Muddy]

Your post to my topic in the Ukrainian Front Discussion:

Now I will say that I am a nice guy and I always try to treat people well even if it is not returned.... I always tip at least 20% every time.....

Yes Ken you are very nice, I can see that its very important to you, I see this word nice in all your posts, would it make you happy if I say perhaps you are the nicest poster at RWD?

[JR]

Your post to my topic in the Ukrainian Front Discussion:
Yes Ken you are very nice, I can see that its very important to you, I see this word nice in all your posts, would it make you happy if I say perhaps you are the nicest poster at RWD?

Do you mean all two of Kens posts? Muddy muddy muddy, trolling aren't we? Are you bored?

[GQBlues]

<snip> so I am trying to figure out if the one I am investing time, energy and resources in is for real... or if she is playing it cool should I just realize that the atraction is not strong enough for her twords me ... and just move on?

Wow! Ken, I'm with Faux Pas. Your life, your decision, your fate. You're the one dating this woman and you're the only one who fully understand the feeling you get with her.

All I can tell you is you need to understand who you are and what you want out of this relationship ~ then just follow your what you feel is the right thing to do - for you.

Your instinct will hardly fail you.

[Boethius]

A week and a half is not much time.  I wouldn't put much into a lack of physical affection in that short a time.  She may be reserved.  Plus, she is a mother, so she will be more guarded because she has to protect her child.  I also would put nothing into the fact you haven't met her parents.

I don't think anyone can tell you what to do.  I agree, a lot of it is instinct. 

[GregfromGa]

A couple of questions if I may just to get an idea or two about what we're working with here.

How old are you and how old is she?
How did you meet her?
Does she wear those really pointy shoes like elf shoes?
Do you feel that she always has your best interest in mind? My wife was always worried about me paying too much, spending too much,being hungry,being too cold, catching a cold,protecting me from people trying to pull shit over on me because I was American, mostly policemen.LOL....My wife hated the idea of me spending perfectly good money on eating out when we had a good stove in my apartment.

[Vaughn]

Welcome, Kens1958 ~ I find several points in your opening post interesting, not the least of
which is your candor about her sparse affection....  no judgment by me here, in fact, it is
refreshing to hear of a lady who is more discriminating than most regarding potential bedpartners.
Where I see real trouble (for you) is her conviction about remaining in Ukraine - and I wonder aloud
if her desire to stay put meshes well with how she portrayed herself prior to your actual meeting....

The lady in Odessa who grabbed your heart and attention - what happened to her? Or was she
quickly forgotten after meeting the lady in Nikolaev? Why were you dancing until all hours with
Ms Nikolaev's sister - and not with the one for whom you had hope of a relationship?

Now you have begun a concurrent thread asking about Lugansk factoids with an apparent journey
planned to there.....  therefore, I am going to "bow out" until I'm clearer on your own desires.

Again, welcome aboard.           Vaughn  

[kens1958]

Thanks for the comments every one... to answer the question.... my girlfriend is always looking out for my well being .. and trying to save me money.... keep me safe ..... and warning me of dangers.....
I have seen her jellos of other woman..... and at times she can be very romantic when I least expect it.... with a genuine honesty to it.....
One issue I have is I'm 51 and she is 23...... She said it is not an issue..... I'm in good shape phicialy and financially so I can actually go out with girls like her in the states.... but it would be unlikely to expect any longterm relations with an American girl with such an age gap.......Ukraine girls seem much more mature to me than American.... and well if you have met a Ukraine girl I don't need to tell you the many advantages they have over American girls..... It is intresting that the reason I looked in FSU is because my business partner has been married to a Russian woman for 10 years an she is hotter and sweeter than she was 10 years ago and they are even more in love.....In the same 10 years I married an American beauty who divorces me and took the money and is now supporting her boy toys.

[mies]

I think this is a large age gap for this particular girl. If she was more interested - she would not be postponing any serious decisions to "next year". Ask yourself a question "If I were 30yo with the same assets that I have now - will this girl still want to wait at least one year before introducing me to her parents and marrying me?". If you will give honest answer to this question - I am sure the motives of the girl will be obvious for you.
I personally think that she may like you, respect you, and maybe even have some sympathy or warm feelings for you. But she isn't considering you seriously as a marriage material for her. Yet, she does not have any other options right now, so she keeps you hanging on a hook - as her back-backup plan.

 

[Muddy]

maybe that is the reason she does not want to have sex with you
Your girlfriend does not LOVE you!
Maybe you are older than her father.
1958, forget her and move on pal!
Do you know KenC??
Your friend,
Muddydman

[mies]

Maybe you are older than her father.

most likely

[Muddy]

If you were 6 years younger then all would be okay Kenny.

[GregfromGa]

maybe that is the reason she does not want to have sex with you
Your girlfriend does not LOVE you!
Maybe you are older than her father.
1958, forget her and move on pal!
Do you know KenC??
Your friend,
Muddydman

What does KenC have to do with this?

[docetae]

scam scam scam... if the woman loves you, you will know it and will not ask you question. If you start to ask you question, go to the next one. You will understand what I say when you will meet the right one....

[Ravens9273]

At first reading this thread I thought this was a nice guy. Then I read his post to the ages and completely changed my opinion. Personally I find this sick.
She could be your daughter for christs sake.

We are not talking about a 50 year old Women and a 78 year old Man.
She is a child to you. You are more then twice her age.

Let me give you a hint.
You want to know why she has not introduced you to her father?
Because he would burry you 6 feet in the ground. If that happened then she would lose her 1 year meal ticket.
Personally I think you deserve to be taken for a ride to even consider such a thing.

[GregfromGa]

At first reading this thread I thought this was a nice guy. Then I read his post to the ages and completely changed my opinion. Personally I find this sick.
She could be your daughter for christs sake.

We are not talking about a 50 year old Women and a 78 year old Man.
She is a child to you. You are more then twice her age.

Let me give you a hint.
You want to know why she has not introduced you to her father?
Because he would burry you 6 feet in the ground. If that happened then she would lose her 1 year meal ticket.
Personally I think you deserve to be taken for a ride to even consider such a thing.

Ravens9273, why dont you tell this guy what you really think. Don't sugarcoat it, no holding back, give it to him straight.

[Gator]

Kens1958,

Not knowing any more about you, here is my assessment:

I appreciate a RW who is a challenge vs. one who is desperate to leave.  However, you are taking the concept too far.

-  She does not want to leave Ukraine.
-  She is not physically attracted to you, or otherwise...
-  You are probably older than her father.
-  She is a young single mama and probably feels betrayed and full of mistrust.
-  She needs a man who will convince her that he gladly will be a complete father to someone else's child (I consider this a larger and more difficult commitment than marrying).

To overcome these obstacles you must have a lot going for you.  Being a "nice man" is not it (and you do sound too nice as in naive and inexperienced and easily used).  I am not sure that many RW rank "nice" men high on their wish list.

You can date her some more and see if you gain any ground.  You will probably look back one year from now and say, "What a waste!"  You had a bad relationship with your ex-wife.   

Why not take the time to find someone where there are no questions in the beginning, and the relationship grows better every day?

Why not spend your time with any of thousands of beautiful RW from 35-45 who are looking to start a new life and would love their man with all of their heart?

Some of these RW are absolutely gorgeous, and their stage of life should dovetail with yours.

[mies]

scam scam scam... if the woman loves you, you will know it and will not ask you question. If you start to ask you question, go to the next one. You will understand what I say when you will meet the right one....

you are misusing the terms. Do you call every woman who does not love you a scam?
Then there is all world of scammers   I turned out to be a scam as well - since I clearly do not love you, nor Ken, nor anybody else on this board for that matter
(making a note in my pink diary glossary: Scammer - a person who does not love me, but treats me nicely.) Ken refers to her "my girlfriend", she calls him "my friend". Where is scam? She does not say she loves him or anything else promising.

Why not spend your time with any of thousands of beautiful RW from 35-45 who are looking to start a new life and would love their man with all of their heart?

Some of these RW are absolutely gorgeous, and their stage of life should dovetail with yours.

IMHO 35yo gorgeous woman is still too young for him. In 20 years she will be 55 and he will be 71. 40-45yo would be much more reasonable.
what is common between lifestyle of 35 yo woman and 50+ yo man?? I am 30, my mom is 50, dad is 55. What is common between our lifestyles? Nearly nothing.  

Ken - you should not have bad feelings about this woman, but she is indeed too young for you. The two of you and her child living together 24/7 will be suffocating experience for the girl, and too much hassle for you. Think of comfort feeling and good life and woman who'll be good for this role. Titillating youth is good in tiny quantities - same as spices. Take too much - and it's a spoiler.

[Ade]

Ken, really, take a step back and try to be objective. For all the reasons mentioned above and a bunch of others left unsaid, do you see this as a relationship that can be successful or are you just blinding yourself with wishful thinking...?

[Aloe]

it is a silly excuse, that FSU girls are "more mature". They may be more mature in some ways, but they are still women, and women usually desire sexual attraction. Be honest with yourself, you probably arent brad pitt, and by the sound of it, she isnt very attracted to you. Do you agree that physical attraction is one of very important parts of a relationship? Even if you win her over and she becomes attracted to your mind enough to not mind the body, for the next year or two, what will be in 5-10 years? She will be young and beautiful, and you will be old and disgusting, sorry for saying this. When i just started looking, i thought i could marry a guy like 20 years older, but as i met them, i understood, there is no way in hell id marry someone who isnt attractive, and 99 percent of people at 40 are already unattractive. Ill tell you what was tempting. It was tempting because they have money. But in the end i decided id rather be poor but happy, than rich and despising myself and my husband. And yes i would be extremely embarrassed to introduce a man close to my parents age or older to them.
I think you should go over and ask to meet her parents maybe, and not take her on any vacations and not send her any money, see if she likes you for you

[BC]

Thanks for the comments every one... to answer the question.... my girlfriend is always looking out for my well being .. and trying to save me money.... keep me safe ..... and warning me of dangers.....
I have seen her jellos of other woman..... and at times she can be very romantic when I least expect it.... with a genuine honesty to it.....
One issue I have is I'm 51 and she is 23...... She said it is not an issue..... I'm in good shape phicialy and financially so I can actually go out with girls like her in the states.... but it would be unlikely to expect any longterm relations with an American girl with such an age gap.......Ukraine girls seem much more mature to me than American.... and well if you have met a Ukraine girl I don't need to tell you the many advantages they have over American girls..... It is intresting that the reason I looked in FSU is because my business partner has been married to a Russian woman for 10 years an she is hotter and sweeter than she was 10 years ago and they are even more in love.....In the same 10 years I married an American beauty who divorces me and took the money and is now supporting her boy toys.

I echo most of what Gator posts.

The very first question I have regards your motivation.  You have been slighted by AW, thus repulsed when in fact there is nothing wrong with them as a whole.  You seem also to be impressed by your business partner's relationship and driven to same.  You may find that you have similar automobiles.  This is quite normal, it is natural to compete and strive to excel above others around us.  In some contexts a healthy attitude, but as it regards women and especially FSUW (not because there is anything wrong with them), quite unhealthy IMHO.

The fact that this woman does not want to leave her homeland is positive.  My wife also did not want to but hey.. every woman also has her own set of motivators that only time will divulge.  If you have the means, and the time, by all means follow up for closure, but note well remarks from the many objective posters here so you can see through that blinding aura before you, if such is possible.

As to the age difference all I can say from personal experience is that it is a challenge that keeps growing as time passes, in the end you will always be faced with a hurdle you cannot surmount whether it be death or folly.  I say this with a 17 year age difference in our marriage which stretches the rubber band of our relationship far enough.  Take a rubber band and stretch it to the point you think it will snap.. then stretch it half again.  If your rubber band holds I tip my hat but beware of the pain it will cause both your fingers should it snap.  The years pass quickly.. acting without enormous amounts of forethought leaves a huge burden of accountability in the end, especially towards the children involved.  If it is "not an issue" it is indeed a problem.

Form a relationship, don't rationalize yourself into one.

[ScottinCrimea]

Each relationship is unique, but based on what you have written I don't hold out much hope for this ever turning into a long term relationship. I understand how the 50 year old ego is stroked by a 23 year old who will even give you the time of day, let alone actually spend time with you. If we look at the risk/benefit ratio; you are deep in the hole.

Many will provide examples of exceptions, but the age difference is a huge issue.  Even though she says she doesn't mind, she is only talking about a dating situation where she gets material benefits and nice vacations and the only expectation is that she gives you a peck on the cheek once in awhile. If it gets to the point where she has to consider being 30 years old and married to a 60 year old, she may indeed mind. Besides the total differences in life experiences, there are the differences in expectations as you are in totally different stages of your lives.  When it comes down to it, what do you really have in common? Beyond the age difference issue is the issue of her current age.  She is still developing and you have no idea how she will evolve as she matures or if this change will be compatible with the changes that you will make over the next few years.  My wife and I have a 15 year gap, and I was surprised to learn of the differences in expectations even though we knew each other for 3 years before we married.  You can brush it aside for awhile, but ultimately it must be dealt with.

It has been stated repeatedly that if a RW is into you, you will know it.  It is obvious that this one isn't into you.  Calling you nice and saying she respects you are things she would say to a professor or her father, not something a 23 year old would say to a potential lover.  As much as some may say they respect a girl with such "values" that insists that you must date for at least a year, think about it.  What 23 year old anywhere would make such a statement about a man that she feels strong chemistry for?

She says that she doesn't want to leave Ukraine - A huge red flag.  A woman in love will go where her heart leads her.  She is already setting up the reason to say no when you force the issue.

Right now your relationship is merely a convenient one for her.  No risks for her and some possible benefits with few expectations.

Before you return to see her, you need to ask some very hard questions that I suspect you have been avoiding.  Can she picture you as a husband?  Would she be willing to leave Ukraine to be with you? How soon would she be willing to do this?

As much as you may fear that it will burst the bubble, you have to be very clear about your expectations of your relationship.  I'm assuming that what you expect is that you be married within a specific time frame and that she will immigrate to the US to be with you.  What are her expectations?
My advice, and you may listen or discard it as you choose, is that you move on to a woman who is closer to your age, more compatible with your stage of life, and who clearly demonstrates that she is into you.

I understand that the idea of a 23 year old on your arm is great for the ego and self esteem, but I sense that you are looking for something much deeper than this, and to be quite honest, a 23 year old really doesn’t run that deep.

Before you return in October, ask those difficult questions.  You may not want to know the answers, but you need to have them.  If you still decide to go, set your expectations as to what she must do to show her level of commitment and make them clear to her.  If you find she is unable to do this, you have your answer.  Does she want a marriage or just a convenient relationship?

This whole venture is fraught with risks.  Several things in your posts show that the particular risk to you is even higher.  Sure, you may be the exception, but the ground between here and Ukraine is littered with the bodies of men who thought they were the exception.
There are many incredible women in Ukraine who are searching for a man like you.  Don’t be forced to compromise your expectations based on the excitement of youth and a hot young body.