Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[Blues Fairy]

25 year old Ukranian man living in Ukraine who honestly loves her, OR, a 51 year old American (westerner) who lives in the US (or Europe) who honestly loves her? Any thoughts and why?

Why not a 30 year old Brit who lives in London, or 27 year old Russian who lives in Moscow, or say 35 year old Argentinian who lives in Buenos Aires?  She's 23 and the world is her oyster.  

[BillyB]

Will her life and her child have a better future/opportunity with a 25 year old Ukranian man living in Ukraine who honestly loves her, OR, a 51 year old American (westerner) who lives in the US (or Europe) who honestly loves her? Any thoughts and why?

She and her child are more likely have more financially, security, and opportunities in the West. If her older husband has insincere motives, she will be used as a sex machine. If he has sincere motives, he will adore her. Is it better to love or be loved? If she likes being loved, she could survive being in a marriage with a sincere older man. The older man may never get the love he desires though. Who's going to suffer most?

[JR]

Go West Young Lady

[kens1958]

WOW guys and gals this is all good stuff.
I would like to add a little more info to the conversation.
Mies.... I really like your comments and I think you understand most closely what I feel is going on...
It will surprise many of you to find out that I have a sister that got pregnant out of wedlock and years latter an American man courted her until she finally gave in and Married him ..... He is 29 years older than her... they have been married 15 years and are still going strong... though they chose not to have any more children...
My youngest daughter is 2 years old and my oldest is 13... so I guess I started late.....
Also I should tell you that when we met My girlfriend and her friend both came to my hotel room to change.... and I did not think to clean my bathroom before ... in it laying in site were my condoms..... when my girlfriend came out of the bathroom she warned me about the high concentration of Aids in Ukraine and other deceases.... I knew then that she probably was wondering if I was just a sex tourist.... I could understand based on the Viagra and condoms laying out that she might get this impression... ( I just wanted to be prepared ... just in case.... REALY!)
Lastly I Will say one of my buddies got engaged on the trip and I just talked to him on the phone..... many will be glad to know he is 32 and she is 19   a closer age gap...... Guys to be clear I would be very happy to meet a 36 year old that I clicked with .... and that is what I was looking for..... What can I say I'm not chasing a 23 year old.... I have a relationship that developed with a 23 year old and I'm trying to understand it.... more than age I am concerned with thecultural differences.... I have seen lots of very hot and smart 30+ year old.... and if their into building a family.... then I hope to meet them........
Now however I have a relationship ... for what it is and ... I am a loyal person ... I don't dump my friends just because they do not fit my predetermined mold.... By the way I just spent the last 4 Horus on the web cam with my girl friend where I mentioned many of the concerns I read here.... she wanted names... dint worry I played dumb....
    PS I thought my sister had lost her mind (she is a very hot blond) and I thought he was a an old man robing the cradle... at least I'm not bigoted

[Vinnvinny]

.. dint worry I played dumb....

.... played? 

[Ravens9273]

Vinny.
You beat me to it!

I was here typing the same thing.

[Jooky]

Hey Ken,

I have a few questions for you:

How did you meet this girl? Through what agency? Were you on a romance tour or did she go to Odessa specifically to meet you?

When you chat with this girl all night (for her) is she using computers at an agency?

Does this girl speak fluent English?

What is the largest age gap you've personally had with an American woman that you've dated?

You say that Ukranian girls have many advantages over American girls. What type of advantages do you see?

[kens1958]

VinnViny  I'll be the first to admit that I might have drank the koolaid...
I don't remember drinking any .. but I do feel a little woozy :selfharm:.....

Yes I did meet her at a club organized by a romance tour.... It is an intresting side note that after I took her to Yalta she canceled her membership in that agency ...Its still canceled ....
I went to Ukraine with a tour because I was following the advice given hear about communicating with out an agency and I found that almost all the girls wanted me to send them money so they could join me in America....
As this was my first trip to FSU ... I decided to play it safe and go with a group..... I found the people to be wonderfull..... I enjoyed myself so much that I extended my stay....
after a wile I met many ex- pats and pro daters.... ( the story they all gave me was - everytime I think I found the right girl ... I meet a better one...) Guys I'm not nearly so hard to please.... I only want one woman in my life.... and It does not take me 10 years to find the right one...... Like I said in an earlier post..... "it is not so much finding the right person as being the right person"....
When we chat it is over Skye..... and yes I pay for her internet....
I guess that makes me a scammer? oh wait a minuet ... did I get that mixed up......
I'm just a boring engineer at my core... and I have yet to spend as much money on a  Ukraine girl as I spend with out think on a American girl .... who only wants to use me for great sex then dumps me.....
And amazing I have no problem going out with American girls in there 20s ...... They even call me?! ... but in America I feel I'm getting an inferior product.....Upps did I say that?     ....As for 30+ girls in America they all in my town are looking for young studs in there 20 to F and F..........In our town they call themselves Cougar's.....  I live in a town of full of young and wealthy men.... where beautiful woman are a scarcity..... actually most of the beautiful woman you will see in my town were imported from FSU..... :whirling:..
I do want to truly say thank you for all the thought you have all provoked in me.... My story is not yet written and I will take all of your words to heart ....  I really like the FSU woman and if the politics ever get stable I would like to invest in the countries.... for now I will watch from the side lines and hope to be fortunate enough to find true love with a lady from FSU..... Hey I thought I had that with an American beauty until she divorced me and ran off with a younger man  or should I say boy?

[kens1958]

I almost forgot ... she speaks good English and we have never used an interpreter

[Jooky]

Ken, a few more questions:

What agency did you use?

When you pay for her internet, do you pay her directly or do you pay through an agency?

Are you sending her money via Western Union?

How much are you paying for these webcam chats? Are you paying by the hour?

When you chat by webcam, is she typing or actually talking to you for 4-8 hours straight?

Also you didn't answer:

What advantages do Ukrainian women have over American women?

[JR]

What advantages do Ukrainian women have over American women?

40 to 50 lbs of fat they aren't carrying around

As to the age gap thing. It really is between the two people. Several married posters here have stated in various threads that the max workable age gap is ______. Then they go on to say that that particular number is their own age gap with their wife. That is reinforced with something about if the gap were larger it would never work.

I feel this is bogus. Applying universal rules based upon personal experience doesn't work. What does or does not work for you may or may not work for another.

Large age gaps increase risk of failure. Extremes of all sorts tend to do that. But they are not absolutes. My favorite niece married a man 23 years her senior. She has been married about 8 years, they have three beautiful children and to hear her talk she is still very much in love with the man. We were all aghast (myself included) when we heard what she was doing. But she followed her heart and her life is full of happiness.

Ken I would advise you to be careful and honest with yourself. Look for important differences between you two and NEVER ignore red flags. But also enjoy life. It is your adventure and good or bad you must live it.

[kens1958]

Thanks Jolly Rats

[pitbull]

I could understand based on the Viagra and condoms laying out that she might get this impression... ( I just wanted to be prepared ... just in case.... REALY!)

Ken,

Forget the 23-year old 

[Misha]

I live in a town of full of young and wealthy men....

Plenty of reason to make sure that you marry a woman who loves you and is marrying you for all the right reasons  :evil:

where beautiful woman are a scarcity..... actually most of the beautiful woman you will see in my town were imported from FSU.....

I have to say that it annoys me to no end when men talk about "importing" wives 

[Gator]

Ken,

You deserve a browbeating  to protect you from yourself.  Why?

-  You are searching for a trophy wife rather than something nobler.

-  You say you want a 35 yo woman so as to have a child, yet you hook up with a 23-yo.   

-  Your use of the term “girlfriend” is nauseating because this woman is not your girlfriend (be sure to answer Jooky’s questions as he is very experienced and is possibly onto something). 

-   You met this woman on a tour, a route I have never trusted and a route that ignores tens of thousands of pretty, sincere women interested in marrying a foreign man.  If you had spent some time planning your trip you easily could have met several women with whom you would have no doubts and certainly would not be posing questions to RWD.

-   You are 51 and already taking Viagra!  That’s early.  How are you going to stay up (pun intended) with a 38-yo at the peak of her sexuality when you are 66?

-   You claim to be in “good shape phicialy” yet I see a belly in your tiny, tiny avatar.
 

So why am I not the one to give you this beating?

Easy answer.  My wife and I have an age disparity even greater than the 28 years separating you and your Nikolaev woman. Pot….kettle….black.

All I can say is if you do decide to pursue a young woman, take your time.  I mean a loooooooong time. 

It takes a long time to identify, discuss and resolve all the issues that come with a large age gap. How long?   Before we married, my wife and I had known each other for 6 years and had spent over 400 “24/7” days together.  IMO that was too long, yet I had my serious misgivings. 

[ScottinCrimea]

First off, vinnvinny, I appreciate you citing your experience.  It gives some credence to your opinions.  But I would like to comment that the age gap may have indeed been the underlying issue to the ultimate reasons you broke up.  Just a thought.

I'm hearing the same old citing of the exceptions to the norm as justification for assuming an exceptionally high risk situation.  It's basically the same as noting someone who won the lottery and thinking you have the same odds as them so your chances are good.  One ignores the 99.999% who lost, not comprehending that your odds are also the same as theirs.  For every man who pursued a large age gap relationship and succeeded, there are countless others who did the same and failed.  You have to ask what is unique and special about you that gives you better odds. Of course every man likes to think he is unique and special and thus not subject to the odds, but do a reality check, look around and really think about it.

Which brings me to my next subject.  You talk about the many wealthy young single men in your area.  What's to say she won't arrive and see the opportunity to "move up"?  What is it about you that would bond her to you rather than pursuing a younger, viagra-less, better looking, richer man?  You had better be darned sure that she loves you, and you will only know that with time.  From what you have written so far, there is no evidence she feels attracted to you externally.  Your only hope is that, over time, she will grow to love what is inside. and that TAKES TIME.

I can think of several women 28 years older than me (that would be 79 years old) that I respect and would enjoy regular chats with and occasional trips together, but the idea of crawling in bed with them would not interest me in the slightest.  The same as someone my daughter's age envisioning sex with an old fart like me.  Sure I have a lot of energy and look much younger than my age  , but I am just not that special or unique. I can admit it and maybe it's time you did also.

If you insist on pursuing this woman, the best advice I can give you is to TAKE YOUR TIME.  If she says no talk of marriage for a year, great!  This is good advice.  At the end of this time you should both know pretty well where you stand.  Avoid monetary incentives for her to keep the relationship going as this will only confuse things.  You need to know that she loves you for you, not what you have to offer her materially, as she will easily find someone who can offer her more.

Of course everyone here hopes that you are the exception, but our combined experience suggests otherwise.  It's a risk only you can decide to take.

[BC]

Gator,

Your words are wise, but it's kinda hard to talk a hungry fish off of a hook that has been set.  Quite honestly if an additional child had not been mentioned I would have much less concern.

Reading his posts I see:

ISS - Instant Satisfaction Syndrome
EG - Entitlement Generation
Self
Unrealistic expectations

He obviously has had large personal losses in his life - but has yet to fully overcome them.  The emotional 'hole' remains instead of healing.  In real life we are used to filling holes from the top, but emotional holes need to be filled from the bottom.  This sort of explains the head over heels 'replacement' attitude we see.  In similar ways I have been there, done that.. -left to learn the hard lessons of life until I finally 'got it'.  I'd be the last person on earth to deny Ken such learning experiences.  My main concern is his stated motivation factor - a biological child..  and that is what raises hairs on my neck a bit.

In 2002 I had to weigh the budding relationship with my wife.  Yes, we both expressed desire a child but my concern was if this expectation was reasonable, not only for myself and my wife but most important a child as well.  I was 42 at the time, my wife 24.  I debated with myself for months whether to go forward or let go.  It was tough.  The factors I looked at were:

Did I really want a child or was it the result of this new found possibility with a wife still in childbearing years.. - answer here yes since this was a long term wish and a nagging factor that contributed to the demise of my last long term relationship (not married).  

Would I be able to provide a good quality of life for a child?  Here the tough stuff begins..  basically with my age..  I figured reaching the age of 65 would be within the realm of reality which would reasonably assure being able to participate in my child's life into the 20's if not more, with a good 'follow on' father figure available in the form of my eldest son to pass on inherited life values.  Financially, ok with home paid for, insurance paid up, etc etc.  What remained was effective parenting time.. since I am self employed with a very flexible work schedule and work from home I felt it was reasonable that although I would likely not live into our child's middle age, the additional time spent together in formative years would make up for it a bit.  Lastly I was resigned that if for whatever reason a child would not be born I would have to simply accept that it was not meant to be.

I am now only a couple of years, maybe less, younger than Ken.  If I had to make the same decision today I would have had to let go.  My wife's desire for a child would push me well into 'unreasonable', even irresponsible territory.

I would sincerely like to hear Ken's rationale on this subject.  Am assuming he is an active businessman and will have to devote much time to his businesses for some time to come.  I KNOW that life and what it takes.. is a great life for the work hard, play hard gang but have seen time and time again where family disasters are created thereof, mostly resulting in very troubled kids.  Can Ken afford to put family first.. not in financial but emotional terms as the top priority in his life? What if for some reason a child is not possible is it time for a trade-in?  We tell mothers not to smoke, not to drink, stay healthy during pregnancy..  I personally would be very concerned with even 'recreational' use of Viagra when trying to conceive a child, much less if it is a necessity.  Do sperm banks accept donors using Viagra to enhance their production?

[ScottinCrimea]

BC, I am more than impressed by your willingness to share your personal story and feelings in an effort to show, what is essentially a stranger to you, what he must understand.  This shows your commitment to the goals of this forum and provides me an incentive to overlook the BS that you sometimes post. 

If the OP can't perceive the sincere advice in your post, even though he chooses to ignore the rational approach the others have taken, there is no hope for him and we must let it go and let him reap the consequences of his own decisions.  He has asked for our advice, we have given this to him, and now the decision rests solely on his shoulders.

I personally wish him well and hope for the best but reserve my expectations based on what I have learned to be the cause/effect of similar situations.  As much as he thinks his situation is unique, there are those of us who have been around long enough to have seen this same situation multiple times and understand that this is the same old story.  Unique for the poster, but old hat for us.

One of three things will happen.  Either this relationship will be a successful one and he wil provide a counterpoint to our concerns; it will not be successful and he will disappear into the graveyard of those who thought they knew better and disappeared because they were afraid to admit they overlooked our advice and made a bad choice; and those who eventually see the mistake they have made and stay around to help others who are in the same situation and take seriously the advice of those who have gone on before them.

[Gator]

BC,

Thanks for sharing.  The deep thought that you gave to how the child is affected is the very reason why you would make a good father.

Let us hope Ken listens to the “Been there done that” crowd.  All of us men are different, and have traveled different paths to get here, yet we are not that much different! 

IMO Doc Rep’s thread parallels Kens1958 thread.  Both men have a new relationship with a RW/UW, both have questions about his woman’s behavior, and as more information is shared it becomes apparent that both are dealing with some sense of loss.  Some interesting testimonies there about rebounding from a divorce.

[GQBlues]

Ken went to a social for chrissakes. That's like setting out a barracuda in a pool full of sardines. He even said he dated a few of them before actually retreating to this girl's city to see her. Meaning he met her at the social and couldn't quite go because there were more unfinished businesses to attend to. One had to go through the roster, you know. Big deal - men go to socials specifically for these types of activities. Why else would he be packing 'Viagra'?

Is Ken in love with this woman? I think he's lost in the midst of lust. A middle aged American man (Mid-west?) trying so hard to justify why he is where he is in this stage of his life. Great! Have fun. Does this means he'll marry her, who knows but my prediction will be is - no. This woman is as good as the next willing PYT to look his way but not better.

Typical boy lost in a candy factory - story to me. The general audience seem shocked everytime a story like this unfolds.

If they do get married (who cares), the child's stock in life just went up a few notches as far as I'm concerned. The smaller child that is...Besides, 10 years from today, she's 33 and he's 61. She's adjusted and hopefully with a better hold in her life's future and he's on the last leg of his journey. The child will be in her teens - both in a better society economically.

As for the age disparity relationship, it's much harder for me to understand why other people get so tied up in knots about other people's business than why people ARE in these relationship.

Why not a 30 year old Brit who lives in London, or 27 year old Russian who lives in Moscow, or say 35 year old Argentinian who lives in Buenos Aires?  She's 23 and the world is her oyster.  

Interesting response Blues...yes, of course I agree - those are definitely good options - though I believe such is NOT always available for everyone. But if they are, like let's say for this particular woman, yet she still have the two other options as well - Ukrainian / American samples; and she ultimately chooses the American, how and why is that so wrong?

[groovlstk]

Ken went to a social for chrissakes. That's like setting out a barracuda in a pool full of sardines.

Who is the barracuda in this situation, and who are the sardines? I'm guessing most guys who do socials would consider themselves barracudas but a good portion would be mistaken.

[groovlstk]

If they do get married (who cares), the child's stock in life just went up a few notches as far as I'm concerned. The smaller child that is...Besides, 10 years from today, she's 33 and he's 61. She's adjusted and hopefully with a better hold in her life's future and he's on the last leg of his journey. The child will be in her teens - both in a better society economically.

While I would agree with this in general, I believe using this as a sort of justification is a dangerous and slippery slope. A year or so ago, a guy came here looking for advice on how to bring his fiancee and her child to the US on a K1. Now, the child's father might have been a true SOB, but the OP was trying to justify bribing the right people to allow the child to leave Ukraine w/out dad's consent because, of course, his fiancee's child would have more opportunities and an easier in life here.

As has been said before, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[mies]

He obviously has had large personal losses in his life - but has yet to fully overcome them.  

this is exactly my impression - Ken has to overcome certain things in himself, before rushing to get a baby-boy.

if i understood him correctly - he already has 2 daughters. One is 2yo, and another is 13yo. Daughters are also perfectly valid children, not only boys.

Some details are food for thought.
If Ken was married for 10 years - are these both girls from same woman? I am not a big expert on women's choices, but it looks quite strange for me to be filing for divorce from man who just made woman pregnant again.
If girls have different mothers - which of the girls is from his american ex-wife - older or younger?

The setting reminded me of a story of Russian family I read recently. Ken, please forgive me if this story will bring you any unpleasant thoughts or memories.
So in the story - young man tries to make a huge public outcry after his son died at birth. Man writes to all newspapers, he creates the blog about the "doctors - killers", he blames doctors in unprofessionalism, and demands they should go to jail or better die like his son died. He tells about his loss, about him and his wife feeling devastated, and how it hurts and how lonely and abandoned they both feel. Then he writes that they tried to adopt a child from orphanage and they were denied and he starts the war against doctors/psychologists at orphanages who again took the child from him - this time the little orphan they came to like with his wife. At this point of the story - psychologists start responding him on internet that right now it is too early for this family to be getting a child, and that no decisions about children should be made in such emotionally unstable situation. But wide public still feels very sympathetic about man and says that he should be allowed to adopt a child. Finally, somehow the information leaks into press that this household already has 3 other children (!!!) All three are boys (this fact is important because many men in russia still favor boy over a girl, and 3 girls would not replace a single boy in terms of "quality of children"). But this household has three boys. aged from 4 till 12 or something like that. And these three kids are totally lacking parental love or attention while their parents are trying to compensate for the loss of 4th baby. Moreover, their parents send these poor children a clear signal that they (children) are worthless, and only this last child was valuable. Then psychologists say they are concerned with these 3 children's emotional state. After this information became available - man lost his public supporters - primarily because everybody thought that he should take care of his alive kids, and not "throw them away" in order to shower with love the "orphan replacement" for his lost 4th son.

If your younger daughter is only 2yo, and you are allowed to see her - I do not understand why don't you spend more time with your baby? instead are trying to get a "real baby - son". At least this is my impression from your posts. Sorry if I had misunderstood you. And if you can so easily forget about 2yo daughter - what can guarantee that in a few years you will not as easily forget your next child, should this young woman marry you and give birth to your new baby? Also, how can you know that son will be born, and not a girl?

IMHO - if you are serious about all this "want to have son" story, and not just rationalizing your desire to date/marry young girl, maybe good psychologist could do some help.  
  

[Blues Fairy]

Excellent post Mies. I found this "I want a young woman so she can bear me a son" thing a little disturbing, too.  What if she has a girl again?  Instant divorce?  Or Tower and subsequent beheading?   :evil:

[Mars]

how attracted are you to a 79 year old woman? That may seem like a leap to you but it is the very same comparison to a 23 yr old girl.

/quote]

= = = = = = = = = = =

No, this is not the 'very same comparison.'  It is well documented in various fields of study that since the beginning of time there are many reasons for older men to be attracted to younger women and younger women to be attracted to older men.

There are no such widespred reasons or logic for younger men to be attracted to older women.  The current stories of Demi and Ashton, Madonna and her guy, etc. are extreme abberations.

Note, I am not arguing for large age differences, but am just pointing out that this is not a symetrical situation with respect to which of the genders is older than the other.