Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[ScottinCrimea]

Large age differences are of no real concern to me. I think they can lead to problems, but that's up to each individual couple to decide for themselves.

No, the age gap difference WILL lead to problems.  The only thing the couple can do is fully understand the potential problems and not rationailze them away, decide if they are willing to deal with them and then decide if they actually have the level of love, the commitment, and the character to deal with them.

[KenC]

decide if they actually have the level of love, the commitment, and the character to deal with them.(problems)

Scott,
Not to bust your chops, but isn't that the million dollar question in any marriage?  Regardless of age difference? 
KenC

[BC]

KenC - Based on your description, it wasn't the age gap that broke up your marriage, but rather, a character flaw in Lena.  I met many Lenas when I lived in Ukraine, mostly married to men of their own age.  One of the men who married such a woman (she wanted a propiska) was madly in love with his wife, and he never recovered.

In any relationship there is a balance that maintains it, a mix of many factors including financial, emotional and a host of other items.  Men as well as women always have an eye out for alternatives if a balance is not maintained, it's simply a fact of life and it takes a huge amount of effort.  There is a little thing called 'love', that I believe after a time together can grow to a point that it can overcome temporary imbalances and difficulties . It is tested in the toughest of times. Some survive, some succumb.

I know a couple who have had some very difficult periods in their life together that began with little more than a pot to piss in. Life thew some of the toughest obstacles possible at them, and somehow they survived where most have not.  They just celebrated their 50th anniversary.  That is love.

To those professing they have found true love or 'the one' after a few meetings or even less I say bullsh!t.. you're just fooling yourself. Wait till the sh!t really hits the fan before proclaiming success and love.

What if I were to say that this whole FSUW thing isn't even about love in the first place....

[TheBlackCat]

Ken,

Many of the questions I asked you went unanswered, but there is a good reason I asked them.

First of all, whatever sites you used before going on the romance tour led you to typical scammers. It would help others here for you to list those sites.

Secondly, many agencies hire women to webcam all night on Skype with their customers. Some agencies in particular are known for this, which is why I asked what agency you used. You're paying to chat with this girl and what you've said so far is inconsistent. You either continue to pay the agency or are sending money directly to this girl, but you've avoiding saying this. You say this girl left the agency right after your trip to Yalta, but you also say that this girl's father picks her up at the agency after chatting with you all night.

If you really want to understand your situation, hiding the facts doesn't help.

These days agencies that run romance tours are probably the most dangerous route to finding a Russian bride. There are so many more options available for ladies to meet men than 10 years ago, and agencies have been getting increasingly bad press. A romance tour is viable option for only the most destitute and desperate or those with dishonest intentions.

These type of agencies are know for recruiting women, including prostitutes to attend their socials. They pay women to run webcam chats and they coach their women on how to act and what to say to keep their male clients happy.

Agencies are good at selling a fantasy and illusion. Like it or not, that's the playing field you're working with right now. These days there are much better options.

Jooky may I ask you  when you talk about agencies if AFA is one of them. I thought maybe for a first trip to Ukraine I'd go with them. I know all of you are against agencies. I am new at this. It's all about the language barrier. I'd feel certainly more secure to make my very first trip through an agency... then it would be easier to go back on my own.

I know Benoît, docetae, will want to bitchslap me for even thinking about this... LMAO

[Mars]

I think both cases are a warning flag to the OP and others, simply concentrating on issues like age and beauty are going to make you miss out on the girls who would make your best life partner - very often pretty girls get a lot of attention and can end up pretty vain or damaged goods, everything may seem to be find for 5 or even 10 years as in KenC's case but if they walk out when you need them most exactly what is that love worth???

I can tell you the answer to this, less than nothing

It really doesn't matter how old a woman is, how pretty she is or how much you enjoy doing her doggy style over the sink - if she isn't your best friend, doesn't have a good heart and won't be there when you are at your most vulnerable then you might as well get a dog.

All sounds good, but there is a flaw in your thinking.  It is not only young beautiful girls that can cause the man trouble in the respects you note.  Ordinary looking, and even homely women, can have the same attitudes.  So nothing is gained by avoiding the great looking women.

And also (I will let KenC comment on this more), I think KenC's Lena actually was his best friend and had a good heart and all the rest of the good virtues you mentioned . . . right up to a certain point in time.

In short, there is really nothing a man (or woman) can do to guarantee anything toward a really long term relationship.  We just have to do the best we can, and hope for a lot of luck.

[KenC]

All sounds good, but there is a flaw in your thinking.  It is not only young beautiful girls that can cause the man trouble in the respects you note.  Ordinary looking, and even homely women, can have the same attitudes.  So nothing is gained by avoiding the great looking women.

And also (I will let KenC comment on this more), I think KenC's Lena actually was his best friend and had a good heart and all the rest of the good virtues you mentioned . . . right up to a certain point in time.

In short, there is really nothing a man (or woman) can do to guarantee anything toward a really long term relationship.  We just have to do the best we can, and hope for a lot of luck.

Mars,
You are correct in your statement here.  Nobody can really "know" for sure how their partner will react when adversity strikes.  But I don't know if you are correct in that there is no correlation between looks and dedication under adverse conditions.  Neo makes the point that pretty girls are given special considerations all through their lives.  I know this is very true here in America.  I can only assume that it is true world wide.  These "special considerations" over the years would tend to affect their personalities and make them spoiled or gives them a feeling that they are more privileged than others.  This
"princess complex" and the lack of actual adversities would make them less equipped to handle adversities as they arise.

Of course the amount of true love is an over riding factor, but the more attractive the person, the more future options are available too.  The less options or opportunities available, the more likely the person is willing to adapt to lesser circumstances.
KenC

[BC]

Of course the amount of true love is an over riding factor, but the more attractive the person, the more future options are available too.  The less options or opportunities available, the more likely the person is willing to adapt to lesser circumstances.
KenC

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwpR2-9EvsQ[/youtube]

[Boethius]

In any relationship there is a balance that maintains it, a mix of many factors including financial, emotional and a host of other items.  Men as well as women always have an eye out for alternatives if a balance is not maintained, it's simply a fact of life and it takes a huge amount of effort.  There is a little thing called 'love', that I believe after a time together can grow to a point that it can overcome temporary imbalances and difficulties . It is tested in the toughest of times. Some survive, some succumb.

I know a couple who have had some very difficult periods in their life together that began with little more than a pot to piss in. Life thew some of the toughest obstacles possible at them, and somehow they survived where most have not.  They just celebrated their 50th anniversary.  That is love.

To those professing they have found true love or 'the one' after a few meetings or even less I say bullsh!t.. you're just fooling yourself. Wait till the sh!t really hits the fan before proclaiming success and love.

What if I were to say that this whole FSUW thing isn't even about love in the first place....

I disagree.  The factors (and balance) you have cited may be important for some people, but they are not universal.  I also disagree that relationships take a huge amount of effort.  If you truly love someone with all your heart and soul, you always want the best for him(her).

I believe you have to understand, and respect, the living soul who has entrusted his(/her) life to you.   A narcissist, or an individual who is spiritually dead, may always look for "balance", but that person was not capable of real love to begin with.  It is more a familiarity and convenience, rather than an emotional tie or devotion to the person.

I also disagree that you can't know you are in love very quickly.  I knew within a week that I was in love.   My love is not deeper today than it was 25 plus years ago.  What has deepened is my understanding of my husband.  

In the end, every marriage is its own kingdom.  We can comment on behaviours and outcomes, we can even predict failures, but in the end, there is no formula.

[BC]

Boethius,

Rocky roads are 'proof of the pudding', and it does take great effort to overcome some of life's obstacles.

Let's take the OP's case as an example where his previous marriage failed.  He mentioned a very young child was lost.. am assuming during this marriage at a time where the bond of love is probably greatest.  I could imagine such a loss would have a profound effect on their relationship.  Just think about all the scenarios that could tear the fabric of their 'love' apart.. some very hard work would have been necessary to keep them together.
[disclaimer - this is just for example purposes as we know very little about this tragic incident]

Of course there are varying definitions of love (a long standing discourse over centuries), I tend to think of it more as a gradual growing process that begins with infatuation.  Your point is quite valid though regarding a growing understanding of one another.  Is this not a part of this thing you call 'love' or is it separate?  I tend to think that it is an integral part of a growing love.

Maybe it's because I take a more logical, pragmatic approach to life in general and have realized over time that (for me) infatuation is only a portion of the formula and that love has many components that over time change individually, but that in their sum produces that fuzzy feeling we all like and find desirable.  That is the balance I refer to.

Infatuation in itself is a very powerful ingredient that over time is replaced by growing knowledge and other components.  A good chef will not stick to a basic recipe but will vary the amount of ingredients or add others to make the best out of it.  If a spice or staple is in short supply he will find ways to make up for it, sometimes with spectacular results.

Love is not forever based on the evidence I see around me.  A life with few obstacles certainly makes it easier to maintain but rarely is that the case.

Think of love as a result and not a constant.

[neo]

Referring to my earlier point about attractiveness,

Im not suggesting marriage problems are the exclusive preserve of marrying attractive young partners, I agree with KenC about the Princess Complex though as I have encountered that a lot.

The point i was actually trying to make is, due to the somewhat unhealthy marketing tactics of a lot of agencies and websites there is a general concentration on marketing FSU women on looks and youth first, character second - thats logical, these are the order most men look at a partner in,

The point I was trying to make was not that looking for an attractive partner is bad, far from it, but that really concentrating your search on finding the most attractive partner and thhen overlooking her character defects because you think shes hot - now thats bad and does tend to lead to KenC's princess complex.

In a lot of cases a much plainer girl may prove to be a much better long term match for many men, but they will pursue a more high mantainence riskier proposition not because its good for them or will lead to long term stability, but usually because they can, and ego comes into play. I know. ive done it!!!

So i am not suggested avoiding all pretty girls, just be aware you need to make a more balanced view of the complete package. i.e is the girl nice to her own family? is she the sort of girl who would stop to comfort a mewing cat or run over it in her SLK to get ot Prada before it closes???

- these sort of questions I have found to be mroe important than either her age or attractiveness.

The perfect 10 is a pretty girl with a heart of gold. if you find that then you will have better odds. I agree a less pretty girl could be a complete bitch, but as KenC states as men we tend to be much more tolerant and forgiving of pretty girls and they can become spoilt, which can lead to lack of long-term satisfaction on their part.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,
Not to bust your chops, but isn't that the million dollar question in any marriage?  Regardless of age difference? 
KenC

Of course you are correct, but most have a clear understanding of the expected problems in a marriage, but seem to put blinders on when it comes to the additional problems of a marriage with a significant age difference.  How many times have we heard the statement, "It's not an issue."

[Turboguy]

Jooky may I ask you  when you talk about agencies if AFA is one of them. I thought maybe for a first trip to Ukraine I'd go with them. I know all of you are against agencies. I am new at this. It's all about the language barrier. I'd feel certainly more secure to make my very first trip through an agency... then it would be easier to go back on my own.

I think AFA is exactly the type of tour that Jooky is talking about.   I have done my share of tours too.

The quality of the men on the tour is not as bad as some were portraying.  Most of the guys are sincere.  Most are walking around in the dark with no real experience with RW.   A high proportion are going to have some quality that makes them less desirable on the American dating scene.

The women on the tour will have some very sincere women as well.  Some like the men have something wrong that makes them less desirable on the Russian Dating market. Usually they are the sincere ones.   There will be a high number of scammers and serial daters.  Those are usually the ones you would look at twice.

If you go on an AFA tour don't think about finding a woman as a goal of that tour.  Think about going to learn about the country and to get familiar with traveling to the FSU.  If you happen to meet a sincere woman you want to marry that would be a plus but the odds are against it.   You will have a lot of fun and make a lot of friends.

Before I leave the agency tour thoughts I will say that I would not be prone to recommend AFA for a tour.   There is one tour that I would recommend for the purposes that you are looking for.   That would be one of  Jack's tours.  His are different, have fewer scammers and can teach you a lot about travel and searching for RW.   His agency is First Dream.  He does about 2 a year and limits them to 12 men.   If you look way back in the TR section you will find a blow by blow discussion of my tour with Jack.   If someone has a lot of experience with travel to the FSU, agencies and RW then I think any tour including Jacks are a waste but for a newbie............

[Turboguy]

Of course you are correct, but most have a clear understanding of the expected problems in a marriage, but seem to put blinders on when it comes to the additional problems of a marriage with a significant age difference.  How many times have we heard the statement, "It's not an issue."

It is funny how 10 people can get divorced and if one has an age difference it becomes a big issue and the first thing people mention.

Personally I think age gap is just a factor like so many other factors in interpersonal relationships.   Things like weight, health, income, intelligence, dedication, interests.   A woman, RW or otherwise could end up marrying a guy who is much older, fatter than she would like, poorer than she would like, dumber than she would like and 5 or 10 years down the line get tired of being with that old codger or that fat slob, or that dumb jerk or that guy who ignores her and works 18 hours a day so she can have her sports car. 

Diamonds and taxes may be forever but with RW forever seems to be the exception we all hope to find.

[Faux Pas]

It is funny how 10 people can get divorced and if one has an age difference it becomes a big issue and the first thing people mention.

Personally I think age gap is just a factor like so many other factors in interpersonal relationships.   Things like weight, health, income, intelligence, dedication, interests.   A woman, RW or otherwise could end up marrying a guy who is much older, fatter than she would like, poorer than she would like, dumber than she would like and 5 or 10 years down the line get tired of being with that old codger or that fat slob, or that dumb jerk or that guy who ignores her and works 18 hours a day so she can have her sports car. 

Diamonds and taxes may be forever but with RW forever seems to be the exception we all hope to find.

Turbo,

I don't have any statistics and I'm too lazy to look them up but, it's a pretty safe bet to say that out of 10 RW/AM marriages a large disparity of age (10+ years) is prevalent in 7 of them. It's also pretty safe to say the divorce rate in that same demographic is higher than the 50-53% rate that is the norm for same nationality marriages.

What would you say is the biggest factor for divorce in those 10 marriages, age or generational, cultural differences?  FWIW I believe if you took 10 broken marriages of Americans that reflected the same age differences as the 10 RW/AM you would find the divorces for the same reasons.

From what I have experienced in my life, seen with my own eyes and read here and various other places, age is probably the biggest factor in marriage and divorce. The younger the lady and the larger the difference of age the less likely the marriage will stand the test of time. It's almost as if for each generation difference the more walls and hurdles are in place for divorce. I'm not trying to put you on the spot as I realize the difference of age between yours and your wife's but, you are probably uniquely qualified for that answer.

What say you?

[Misha]

So nothing is gained by avoiding the great looking women.

... if you are a great looking man yourself. The fact of the matter is that a great looking woman who married a man who out of her league will have to deal with the looks and the comments from friends, acquaintances and occasional strangers subtly or not so subtly asking why she married such a man. Throw in the single men that will be flirting with her and her knowledge that she can easily find someone else, and you had better hope that she truly fell in love with you. Additionally, you had better be able to put in some effort into improving yourself (losing weight for example) and do what you can to ensure that the love grows stronger over time.

[BC]

Turbo,

I don't have any statistics and I'm too lazy to look them up but, it's a pretty safe bet to say that out of 10 RW/AM marriages a large disparity of age (10+ years) is prevalent in 7 of them. It's also pretty safe to say the divorce rate in that same demographic is higher than the 50-53% rate that is the norm for same nationality marriages.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8770.0;attach=17221

Actually, the statistics show less than 10 years average age difference and a lower overall divorce rate.

I do concur though with KenC's thoughts about a 'shelf life' for age disparate marriages.  In a way I think it boils down to what a couple have in common regarding interests, goals etc at the outset.  Lets face it's probably tough enough to find commonality within AM vs FSUW relationships. Add a large age gap even less.  If you have sons / daughters how often have you gone out with them and their friends.. how well were you accepted in their 'group'.. did you like their music, clothes and lifestyle?  Did you find common discussion points? Were you invited back?  All the more reason to spend lots of time together with her peers and yours.

Take your age and subtract hers.. If the result is over 18 you are looking at an inter-generational relationship with high chances of a very short shelf life. Success in this group would likely be determined by 'till death do us part', sooner rather than later.

[Faux Pas]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8770.0;attach=17221

Actually, the statistics show less than 10 years average age difference and a lower overall divorce rate.

I do concur though with KenC's thoughts about a 'shelf life' for age disparate marriages.  In a way I think it boils down to what a couple have in common regarding interests, goals etc at the outset.  Lets face it's probably tough enough to find commonality within AM vs FSUW relationships. Add a large age gap even less.  If you have sons / daughters how often have you gone out with them and their friends.. how well were you accepted in their 'group'.. did you like their music, clothes and lifestyle?  Did you find common discussion points? Were you invited back?  All the more reason to spend lots of time together with her peers and yours.

Take your age and subtract hers.. If the result is over 18 you are looking at an inter-generational relationship with high chances of a very short shelf life. Success in this group would likely be determined by 'till death do us part', sooner rather than later.

Perhaps I didn't 'splain myself clear enough but, that is my point. I would consider every 10 years another generation. The younger the woman and the larger the age difference, the less hope there is for the marriage. I don't think this is just exclusive to AM/FSUW marriages but pretty much every industrialized nation. Age is a major factor in some point of the marriage  where there is a big disparity. Especially where the lady was 21 and the man 51. In 20 years he'll be 71 and she at a nice peak of 41, if it should last that long.

With this theory (because thats all it is) the closer the age of the partners the slight increased chance of the marriage lasting. What helps is interests, likes and dislikes which with the large age differences, those are less likely to be common.

[BC]

With this theory (because thats all it is) the closer the age of the partners the slight increased chance of the marriage lasting. What helps is interests, likes and dislikes which with the large age differences, those are less likely to be common.

More like hypothesis than theory.  Although those specific numbers haven't been crunched I kinda doubt it could be substantiated considering the relatively small number of large age difference marriages (over 10 years), much less for inter-generational that are wee blips on the scope.  My hypothesis is that those actively seeking such marriages (like the OP) are in the worst kind of trouble.

I've seen it time and time again that someone comes on board stating 'I date younger women in the US' almost as justification.. quite honestly I have a hard time believing it, second, 'dating' with the goal of getting between the sheets is quite different than seeking someone for the explicit purposes of marriage.  I rarely, if ever see women on these boards that divulge a consistent record of dating older men in normal life although they do exist.

If one does decide to go that direction, ask your mate about their previous dating history..  chances are you are both diving into very dark waters.

[GQBlues]

What would you say is the biggest factor for divorce in those 10 marriages, age or generational, cultural differences?  FWIW I believe if you took 10 broken marriages of Americans that reflected the same age differences as the 10 RW/AM you would find the divorces for the same reasons.

I know this was directed to Turbo, but hope you don't mind....

From my experiences and observations...the two biggest reasons for divorce in American couples I know are money and infidelity. The two biggest reason for AM/RW couples we know are money and cultural. All other reasons seem to be the same in either coupling. Falling out of love (AKA Irreconcilable differences) definitely have a huge following.

FWIW. I don't subscribe to the Princess Complex folks are talking about. (Un)Fortunately this is unjustifiably prevalent in the majority of the men's psyche and as a result their actions are usually predisposed when around beautiful women. It's no different than any other prejudices.

A lot of the most beautiful women I've known are arguably the nicest, most-thoughtful, oftentimes the loneliest women around. I always liked the fact in social settings most of the men will never approached the most beautiful woman in the room, and when they do they are so full of prejudiced notion that it doesn't take much to shoo 'em away. Leave so much fun for the daring.

When a man believing he was lucky enough to be in a relationship with a beautiful woman, or even a simple attention from one that rates as someone out of his league, then he's already convinced he needs to exert measures beyond himself to maintain the relationship. He begin to act out of character. More times than not money becomes a major tool. It doesn't really feed her needs, it simply feeds his insecurities.

We see strains of this fact when an average AM dates in FSU. Beautiful women need to be loved just like any other women. They don't need special care beyond yourself. Most of the time that is strictly the man's perception and insecurities.

[Mars]

To Neo and  KenC

Yes, I understand your points about the Princess Syndrome and that 9-10 type of gals can be a big risk in that regard.

However, a very real phenomena is that many (if not most) women actually think they are 9-10s or at least several points higher than they actually are.  So these women can very quickly adopt a Princess complex when they are hooked up with a nice guy who treats them well.

[KenC]

More like hypothesis than theory.  Although those specific numbers haven't been crunched I kinda doubt it could be substantiated considering the relatively small number of large age difference marriages (over 10 years), much less for inter-generational that are wee blips on the scope.  My hypothesis is that those actively seeking such marriages (like the OP) are in the worst kind of trouble.

I've seen it time and time again that someone comes on board stating 'I date younger women in the US' almost as justification.. quite honestly I have a hard time believing it, second, 'dating' with the goal of getting between the sheets is quite different than seeking someone for the explicit purposes of marriage.  I rarely, if ever see women on these boards that divulge a consistent record of dating older men in normal life although they do exist.

If one does decide to go that direction, ask your mate about their previous dating history..  chances are you are both diving into very dark waters.

Although I tend to agree with Boethius more than you, you do make a good point here.  I VERY much agree that there is something askew when the man's primary criteria for a future mate is youth and beauty without high regard for other characteristics.  My "mistake" if it were indeed a "mistake" was to accept a woman too young and too beautiful that fit all the "other" (more important) criteria.  It was a fear I had from the very beginning, but then there is that other little thing called love.

I guess I could argue that the age difference was not the driving force of our divorce but I would be wrong.  What is "lack of life experience" or the "princess complex" if not examples of the trappings of youth and beauty?
KenC

[BC]

From my experiences and observations...the two biggest reasons for divorce in American couples I know are money and infidelity. The two biggest reason for AM/RW couples we know are money and cultural. All other reasons seem to be the same in either coupling. Falling out of love (AKA Irreconcilable differences) definitely have a huge following.

FWIW. I don't subscribe to the Princess Complex folks are talking about. (Un)Fortunately this is unjustifiably prevalent in the majority of the men's psyche and as a result their actions are usually predisposed when around beautiful women. It's no different than any other prejudices.

GQ,

What about unmet expectations?  Would fit in well IMHO as both precursor to infidelity and explain the 'Princess Complex' (which to me sounds like an entitlement issue).  What married man here hasn't heard the words "But... you promised!!"  

[Misha]

A lot of the most beautiful women I've known are arguably the nicest, most-thoughtful, oftentimes the loneliest women around.

Sorry, don't buy it. All the very attractive women that I knew had more than their fair share of attention (wanted and unwanted  :evil:)

We see strains of this fact when an average AM dates in FSU. Beautiful women need to be loved just like any other women. They don't need special care beyond yourself. Most of the time that is strictly the man's perception and insecurities.

I have a friend. Nice young man in his late twenties. Married a woman MUCH more attractive. She had been complaining to my wife for some time that she was not attracted to him. Well, as it happens, they befriended a nice, younger, more attractive young man. She is the one, finally, that told the other man that she wanted him and within a week she moved in with him. Sometimes, there is a good reason why men should be insecure  :evil:

[Gator]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8770.0;attach=17221

I do concur though with KenC's thoughts about a 'shelf life' for age disparate marriages.  In a way I think it boils down to what a couple have in common regarding interests, goals etc at the outset.  

Goals need not be common, but certainly must be aligned.  With a large age difference, a man and woman will be at different stages of life.  Although his and her current stage of life may be compatible, what happens when she progresses to her next stage.  Two simple examples are from "child rearing" to "empty nester" or "adjusting to America" to "having babies."

[KenC]

To Neo and  KenC

Yes, I understand your points about the Princess Syndrome and that 9-10 type of gals can be a big risk in that regard.

However, a very real phenomena is that many (if not most) women actually think they are 9-10s or at least several points higher than they actually are.  So these women can very quickly adopt a Princess complex when they are hooked up with a nice guy who treats them well.

Sorry Mars,
But I do not agree.  I do agree that fsu women tend to be more secure in their looks than the average AW and that they do everything possible to maximize what they DO have.  I have read studies about this topic and the only segment of American women that ARE very confident in their looks are black women for some reason.
KenC