Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[Jooky]

Mies,

The profiles I looked at where women are looking for men their age to 10+ years older are from match.com. These are women in San Francisco looking for men in San Francisco. You'll see the same trend in Russian singles sites such as mamba.ru, where Russian women are looking for Russian men.

Is that clear now? Is it still a lousy argument?

Where are the profiles that support your argument? The women looking for younger men are in the minority on any dating site.

I am putting emphasis on relative youth.

You weren't when you implied that a woman I date wouldn't genuinely pick me over a 25 year old.

ok - let's shake hands and call peace

Ok, good. I need to get back to my house cleaning. 

[Turboguy]

I'll even go further and rather boldly state that if you are marrying someone that could be your daughter, don't expect anything more than a daughter on an intellectual level..  I've seen posts saying : 'but RW are so much more mature than their western peers..'  To that I say BS... Total, unequivocal BS...  Just another rationalization to get into that short skirt sorta like this:

As far as are RW more mature than their western peers I haven't been married to enough RW to have a good statistical sample.   I will hold with something that I have said before that there are mature young people and immature older people but on average older men and women will be more mature than younger men and women.  If I go from my wife's maturity level she is very mature for her age, more so than any AW I met that was that age and had not gone through things that tend to make someone grow up such as having children or a rough life.   Personally I think on average RW may be a bit mature. 

[BC]

As far as are RW more mature than their western peers I haven't been married to enough RW to have a good statistical sample. 

What's married got to do with it? After 10 years looking, umpteen trips, a bunch of socials, a hundred grand + and a K1 with a young girl that didn't work out? Surely you are not clueless... 

[mies]

Ok, good. I need to get back to my house cleaning.  

{speaking with a hopeful voice} what about borsch?  
{mumbling to myself "i think i'm hungry"}

[Turboguy]

Mies, first off I am not saying anything I am saying with the idea of changing your mind.  I am just discussing a subject and tossing out random thoughts that pop into my empty mind.  

From what you have said the physical and sexual side of a relationship is the most important thing to you.  One of the sad parts of life is that after a few years of marriage we spend far less time having sex with our husband or wife than we do spending time in other ways.   I would be willing to bet if those who have had a lot more varied sex life than I have had were to make two lists.  One of the most attractive partners they have had and one of the best lovers they have had the lists would have little commonality.  Sometimes someone with a little bit of skin hanging somewhere may be a lot better lover than some hunk with six pack ab's.   All in all I think having a happy marriage is not necessarily dependent on having the most georgeous partner possible.   If we love someone they are beautiful to us no matter how others might see them.

To each his own as they say.  When I was in the dating stage I dated some very beautiful RW and some who really had nothing going for them in the looks department and not much in the body department either.  I could have ended up marrying a woman that may would have seen as ugly and been quite happy.  I ended up with a beautiful woman but what I fell in love with was her mind and inner beauty.  The outer beauty was just a plus.  To me the thing I always wanted in a woman was someone I really enjoyed being with and both liked and respected.  I could easily have fallen in love with my wife if she were far less attractive or if she was much older than she was.  

Everyone is different and entitled to make whatever priorities they want in their search and choices.  If you got the whole package that is great.  Many don't place the importance on not having a little skin hanging that you do and that too is fine.

BC, ok, personally I agree with those who think RW on average are more mature than thier American counterparts.

[mies]

Turboguy - you are very wise man, and I agree with everything you said. On each and every point.

don't take my chats on this thread too seriously ) i like absurdity and exaggeration combined with extreme reductionism of definitions and abstract examples. You are completely right - that fit body does not equate good sex, that loose skin does not equate to dis-attractiveness. And of course everybody has own tastes. My comments about attractiveness of brain - were based on somewhat bitter realization that all men who wanted me to love them for their brain and inner world - were interested only in my looks and body, and did not care about my own inner world. I am not quite sure what is the most important thing for me in relationship - it could as well be the fact that my husband cooks and feeds me when I forget to eat. And if you ask me what is important for my husband in relationship - frankly speaking i don't know that either. I am quite a lousy "housewife" -meaning i rarely cook, we share house duties, I never iron his socks or shirts and so on. Also with the looks and all great qualities of my husband - he could easily have any woman he likes. But maybe he likes to cook for me and this is the reason So i guess i'm lucky that we met and mutually fell in love. It is really pointless to theorize why somebody loves someone.

[Gator]

If you were seriously looking for a wife, would you go to a party where:

There are 7 men for every woman.
Most of the women are much older than you.
Most of the women are divorced with children.
Most of the women have some quality that makes them undesirable in the dating scene.

Sounds like a few of the American bars I went to years ago when it was not "Ladies Get 2 for 1 Cocktails."

[Gator]

BC, ok, personally I agree with those who think RW on average are more mature than thier American counterparts.

And soldiers who been at the front for a year or two know more about survival than new recruits.

[GQBlues]

And soldiers who been at the front for a year or two know more about survival than new recruits.

Hhhmmm survival...

Assuming you meant Russian soldiers in recent times, well that would roughly be the war with Georgia. Let me see  , survival...

 

[kens1958]

Turboguy....
Well said......
I also agree with everything you said......

[Boethius]

One of the sad parts of life is that after a few years of marriage we spend far less time having sex with our husband or wife than we do spending time in other ways.  

Speak for yourself.

[KenC]

Mies, first off I am not saying anything I am saying with the idea of changing your mind.  I am just discussing a subject and tossing out random thoughts that pop into my empty mind.  

From what you have said the physical and sexual side of a relationship is the most important thing to you.  One of the sad parts of life is that after a few years of marriage we spend far less time having sex with our husband or wife than we do spending time in other ways.   I would be willing to bet if those who have had a lot more varied sex life than I have had were to make two lists.  One of the most attractive partners they have had and one of the best lovers they have had the lists would have little commonality.  Sometimes someone with a little bit of skin hanging somewhere may be a lot better lover than some hunk with six pack ab's.   All in all I think having a happy marriage is not necessarily dependent on having the most georgeous partner possible.   If we love someone they are beautiful to us no matter how others might see them.

To each his own as they say.  When I was in the dating stage I dated some very beautiful RW and some who really had nothing going for them in the looks department and not much in the body department either.  I could have ended up marrying a woman that may would have seen as ugly and been quite happy.  I ended up with a beautiful woman but what I fell in love with was her mind and inner beauty.  The outer beauty was just a plus.  To me the thing I always wanted in a woman was someone I really enjoyed being with and both liked and respected.  I could easily have fallen in love with my wife if she were far less attractive or if she was much older than she was.  

Everyone is different and entitled to make whatever priorities they want in their search and choices.  If you got the whole package that is great.  Many don't place the importance on not having a little skin hanging that you do and that too is fine.

BC, ok, personally I agree with those who think RW on average are more mature than thier American counterparts.

Turbo,
Your words would ring sincere if you had not married a woman 30 some years your junior with no "hanging skin" you speak of.
 
As it is, they're pretty hollow.  No matter what you say now, you sought, found and married a much younger woman.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Okay, I'm seeing TG getting much better at rationalizing his relationship and others with no experience who desperately want to believe jumping in with their agreement.  All of these idealistic ideas and citing of the rare exceptions just do not reflect the reality of what the true odds are.

TG is new in his large gap marriage after spending years and umpteen dollars seeking such.  As he has said, he could have had those who were not so young or not so physically attractive, but the bottom line is he held out for a 20 something who was willing to accept him for what he had to offer.  He found a compatible relationship.  His goal in finding a wife is obvious from his previous posts.  Her goal was to find someone who could facilitate her goal of an education and career in the US.  Does anyone believe that she would have married him if he could not have been able to provide her with this?

Once she has achieved her goals and no longer needs him for this, only then will we know exactly what the relationship is based on.  The not so distant need to care for him and its conflict with her goals will truly test the relationship.  This is truly a relationship with a predefined shelf life.

Those of you who are seeking the truth, pay attention to the statistics and those of us who have enough time in a similar relationship to really know what the issues are.

My hat is off to Gator who is in just such a relationship but has not dismissed the issues but has freely acknowledged them and recognized that he, also, is early in his relationship and has reserved judgement until such a time as he has actually experienced them.  Based on his realistic approach, I see him as having a much better chance of beating the odds.

You want to cite me one recent example of a successful, longterm large age gap relationship?  In return I can cite you 100 or more that were not successful.  Again, I ask, what makes you so unique or special that you can beat the 100 to 1 odds?

If you want to go into such a relationship with open eyes, knowing the odds, I have no problem with that.  But if you choose to put the blinders on or trust in the advice of those who have no validation for giving such advice, I'll speak up.

What frustrates me about TG is that he misleads newbies as part of his agenda of rationalizing his own actions.

[BC]

What frustrates me about TG is that he misleads newbies as part of his agenda of rationalizing his own actions.

Scott,

I do give him marks for persistence.  His previous experiences, especially his first (or was it second) K1 to a young woman who returned home is well worth a read for the newbie.  He fought tooth and nail for her, even though she seemed quite ambivalent and against the consulate who initially denied her visa. Certainly not a 'home run' experience.

It does go to show though that once the hook is 'set' (usually long before arriving here), about the only thing you can do is provide a few warnings and leave it at that.

They'll find out soon enough on their own.

[Turboguy]

Hey guys, I said at the start of that post that I was not trying to convince anyone of anything just throwing out random ideas to discuss a topic.

I also said a few posts back that I thought most people would find themselves happier married to someone close to their age. 

I won't argue a bit with the comment that my marriage is too new to make any claims of success.  Heck it has only been 20 months.   Right now things are great but lots of women have jumped ship after they got the 10 year card, citizenship, an education, a job, a boyfriend or whatever.

I will stand by my statement that I think age gap is unimportant but I think most people will be happier marrying someone close to their own age.  I would not suggest or recommend that someone persue an age gap relationship.  Most are going to do what they want anyway no matter what any of us say.

[Gator]

You want to cite me one recent example of a successful, longterm large age gap relationship?  In return I can cite you 100 or more that were not successful.  Again, I ask, what makes you so unique or special that you can beat the 100 to 1 odds?

Good point.  Age gap relationships are unique. 

Besides asking what is unique about yourself, ask what is so unique about the RW that she would do something that very, very few of her peers would do.

And the most important, what is unique about how the two of you relate?

My hat is off to Gator who is in just such a relationship but has not dismissed the issues but has freely acknowledged them and recognized that he, also, is early in his relationship and has reserved judgement until such a time as he has actually experienced them.  Based on his realistic approach, I see him as having a much better chance of beating the odds.

Thanks Scott.  You are correct.  By taking our time to build our relationship, I have lowered the odds from 100-to-1 to 50-to-1!  Who knows.  Each day is a blessing.

After our years together I still had my misgivings until she did something that was remarkable, really remarkable.  After that, nothing would stop us. 

[neo]

There is honestly nothing unique about RW and age.

as they say "the statistics don't lie" to whit the eternal optimist replies "the exception to the rule"

Who honestly think Roman Abramovitch's latest bit of stuff would be at all interested in him if he was a slightly overweight, middle-aged, podgy faced bloke still peddling childrens toys in the urals?

Could her interest in him perchance be something to do with the gazillion roubles, yachts, houses, football club etc?

Look on ANY western dating website from match.com, friendfinder etc etc and you will see the same thing, even frankly whack looking obese women want a man anything from 5 years junior to 8 years over max. You pretty much NEVER see any young, single attractive women looking for some guy 15-20-30 years her senior.

And we are not talking smokinhotkova's here, we are talking the sort of women who could be mistaken for farmyard animals on a foggy day.

Now, why, d'ya think that 8/10 - 12/10 women from the FSU would go against this entire western thing and look for a man who was overweight, ball and 30 years older than her?

There is a simple test to check you are not deluding yourself, post your profile on singles.ru - find the (much fewer) attractive women on there compared to a agency site and contact them, see what happens, i  would bet 8/10 times you dont even get a response, compared to the 8/10 times you get a response from agency girls.

We shouldn't delude ourselves, we get to punch over our weight in looks and ages by virtue of our nationality and contents of our wallet. good looking girls have zero problem getting a man in the FSU, my ex-sister in law was shacked up with a trainee doctor 1 year younger than her.

I think men try and find reasons to justify it to protect their egos, but the reality is that the only women on the planet prepared to compromise on age and looks are ones from countries in some sort of economic turmoil and its this reason and this reason alone, a desire for a better future that drives them into a relationship with a older man and not some love of pensioner care.

[Gator]

Neo,

My experience and perception is somewhat different from yours.

Most RW have a mandatory requirement (among other mandatory criteria) that the man be able to provide a stable and secure marriage without financial worries.  Upon achieving that, many preferential criteria come into play.  Nobody is perfect so any man represents something of a tradeoff.  With many RW, however, age is a mandatory criterion.

In contrast, your description if I am reading you correctly would suggest that the largest wallet wins  regardless of other factors.  This may be the case with some RW but not all.
 
Using your example of singles.ru, what would the response be to a young, handsome AM who was contented to live hand-to-mouth or stay forever above his parents' garage?  Also, would not a young, handsome, financially secure AM get a much lower response than his RM counterpart because singles.ru women are not seeking to leave their country?

I have noticed that the RW who came to America as a young university student and stayed have married someone within 10 years of their age.  None of these husbands seem to be suffering financially.  Some are scrimping to save money for a house, yet the RW wife is happy.

[Gator]

BC, ok, personally I agree with those who think RW on average are more mature than thier American counterparts.

And soldiers who been at the front for a year or two know more about survival than new recruits.

Let me see  , survival...

GQ,
It surprises me that you question my brief perhaps cryptic comment.  In my mind, “maturity” is the ability to function as an adult. Are RW more mature?  In some ways they are like children compared to AW, e. g. financial matters.  In the important categories of social, sexual and emotional maturity, RW are about the same as AW.  Perhaps AW can be more melodramatic and RW more stubborn….perhaps.  No big deal.

However, there is one measure in which RW excel – the ability to survive a crisis.  Why?  Many have been put through the wringer, especially RW in their 30s and 40s who have survived some severe economic downturns and the ancillary social turmoil.  More RW have been on this battlefront, while more AW have been sheltered from it.  In other words, RW have well honed survivor instincts. 

[GQBlues]

I actually wasn't questioning you in particular Gator, but maybe sarcastically poking at the notion in general. Obviously I'm not big with the monthly divine subscription to RW 101 because I don't see the same things people do when they say RWs are more - - - - - compared to - - - - - woman. There was an exchange I had with Oooppppss here not too long ago that touched a bit on this subject. At least I know one RW here on the board agrees with me.

Survive a crisis? To me that's just plain relative. Sure there were really tough economic times in FSU. Both during Soviet times and after. But as a well travelled man as you Gator, I am surprised that that even made the grade on the proverbial tough life barometer with you. Most, if not all RWs live in a dwelling either with their parents, family, or at the least relatives. Most, if not all of them, live in free dwellings generally provided for by the state with utilities, bathrooms, etc...If and when they marry, either they live with their husband in her parent's home, or his parent's home. Or if her hubby happened to be relatively well -off, she (they) get to move in a small flat anywhere FSU. That's tough, but hardly qualifies as a survival crisis to me. At least not compared to how women of other countries and culture can subjectively define. Simply put, compared to how other women of our world live, RWs relatively have it made in the shade. I won't be surprised to see not many RWs can live through a day over a week living the lives of women of other cultures.

I supposed compared to the AW, of middle class and up, yes RW's life is generally 'tougher'. Although AWs in skidrow or even the Ghetto variety may have a point or two to make about that too. But even then, I am not prepared to say those women are more mature for their age than the AWs living in suburbia either.

Without offending any resident RWs here, but generally what I mostly see here and in Russia before, RWs answer to meet overall life's challenges is, well, look for a husband and get married. There's always the need for a secondary person to help them along. Husbands, babushkas, lover, etc...I never saw, met, or even heard of a RW in Russia who purposely left home at a young age, got a job, got an apartment, education, and became fully independent while at the same time make something of herself - all on her own and without anyone - as a matter of personal choice. I'm not saying there isn't any but what I am saying is this is more normal for AWs these days than not. For RW, there seem to be a constant search and need for the proverbial Provider. It's almost cultish. I often wonder why can't they just make something of themselves first THEN look for a mate? You know, like how many AMs demonize AWs for doing these days...

I'm a perpetual and a casual observer. I reject the notion of absolutes in generalities. I do think people believe what they like to believe despite what reality dictates. I also refuse to agree with things because it's fashionable. Or maybe this is simply a matter of personal definition of what maturity is, dunno.

Just one of those things...

[neo]

Gator,

I'm not suggesting that biggest wallet wins, and of course I suspect our experiences of RW will vary wildly as we have probably been fishing in much different parts of the pond for want of a better descriptive

I was really just trying to highlight the futility of arguing the rationale between the age difference issue.

I should make clear I've got zero problem with guys chasing young skirt, and I know for a certain fact since time began a sector of pretty russian girls have favoured old wealthy men and vice versa.

I also know for a certain factor there is a sector of RW that are decent home loving girls who prioritise a husband who is loving, kind and a good father over anything materialistic - and of course there are all points in between.

The issue I think is understanding what type of girl/woman you are involved in, and what your own motivations are that might lead you into a certain situation.

My own belief is that men who are entirely motivated by youth and beauty leave themselves wide open to the very predatory pretty dolls who are entirely motivated by money and material success. the men who are more motivated to find a decent family girl are likely to be fishing in the 5/6's and are less likely to encounter the sort of predatory self-motivated individuals that swim these waters.

Both my wife and KenC's wife were cut from the same cloth, that is they were both young, attractive and clearly their primary motivation for a life in the west was a better life with little to no serious problems. if either of them were motivated otherwise they would have stuck with us through the difficult times as well as the good. what it highlights is both women regardless of age difference werent prepared to put up with hardship, and men need to be aware that a LOT of women as GQ point out turn to the agencys and WM as a easy escape route where they can trade their beauty and youth for a easy life.

If a man is prepared to strike such a bargain, then has been commented he should be realistic that such a relationship has a in-built shelf-life.

A russian friend told me "even a dog knows the value of its bark". i don't really know what he meant but I sort of think he is saying everyone woman knows her value in the scheme of things, and the young pretty girls get a truckload of attention both domestically and internationally once they are in the agencies, depending on their moral stance that can corrupt them into thinking they can just take what they want.

Of course there are women who do not think this way, I'm lucky enough to be writing to one of them, I've seen both her profile "glamour" shots and in our correspondance her "Normal life" shots where she looks pretty much like any other girl, unlike however a lot of ultra-high-maintenance-smokin-a-kovas she is a down to earth family girl who clearly has a very good relationship with her parents, a positive view of men in general and a firm belief in family values - this bears out in her "normal life photos".

I can honestly say out of the hundred or more girls i have known or been on 1 on 1 dates over the years they are each motivated by entirely different things, I have figured out some distinctive character traits between ultra-materialistic girls who are in a hurry to live like dynasty, and girls who think 2.2 kids, a 2 room apartment and a nice dog would be perfect.

But in my experience, all the men I know who have been hugely successful have gone about this in a very realistic way, the sort of women they are involved in didn't have very provocative or wildly glamerous profiles, in fact they looked quite plain. I remember seeing a friends wifes profile then meeting her in person and being genuinly shocked has stunning she was in real life, just as I can remember seeing a girls (heavily photoshopped "myspace angles") photos on her profile and thinking how utterly whack she was in real life. yet the photoshopped girl was the one with the attitude brought about by the thousands of fawning letters she had got from agency men who never set foot on the soil.

So i really think its a mistake to concentrate on age and beauty as prime motivators, I know girls of 18 who are more mature and will make better wives than women of 40. and vice versa, the most important question (and what I was getting at) was the importance of understanding what is really motivating the woman you are writing to, what does she honestly want? is it simply a better lifestyle? a life with no problems? diamonds and sports cars? - these questions should be more of a concern than how you can get a 23 year old, because I generally think if you have to really "go after" a young girl to convince her you are the right choice for her then you are making a huge mistake, usually in promising a material compensation package for choosing you.

I think if a RW "is just not that into you" and then shes going to go along with you for the ride because you run around her, her mother or buy her gifts and generally do everything for her then you are making a huge rod for your back, I'm sure most of the properly married guys understand it should be the other way round, really good RW love to spoil their men and take care of them. they knit you hats, darn your shirts, cook food that makes you fat, kill you with sex in the bedroom, its a point of pride to a decent RW to have a good husband she can take care of, the sort of women who expect men to run around after them and "nanny" them, the sorts who want a "special lady to make house clean", who take taxi's 100 yards down the road, who think sex is a priveledge not a right - these are the worst kind of women both here in the west and here, and no matter how hot she is, how young she is and how much you want her she will make your every living day a nightmare.

The acid test for me is always when you go to her country, how well does she take care of you? does she meet you at the airport, negotiate a lower taxi fare? does she have you stay with her family or sort you out an apartment at a "Local rate"? does she take you to the supermarket and cook for you? does she take you to her favourite places? does she introduce you to her friends with pride or hide you with shame? does she ring up to check you got home safe? does she always try and include you in a conversation and translate things for you or just ignore you? - we talk a lot about how we should behave when we are with women, but often its overlooked is how are they treating us in return?

Someone posted recently that "we deserve better treatment" and i think its right, an awful lot of guys are flying half way round the world to be doormatted by spoilt young women who really don't deserve teh attention, the really unlucky ones go on and marry them, I think we can forgive too much bad behaviour simply because a woman is young or pretty (KenC's princess syndrome) when in reality we can overlook teh women (regardless of age or looks) who have the hearts of gold.

to sum up, I remember a scornful vitriol from a young woman in ukraine who i was breaking off relations with who told me "how dare you, i am so beautiful!" i told her simply "but on the inside, in your heart you are the ugliest person i ever met".

[KenC]

GQ,
What a ballsy post!  Even though you say you were not intending to offend, I am sure some will be.  And you had better be sure Momma doesn't read this or your gonna get spanked! 

Don't really know yet if I agree with your assessment, but I can surly understand where you are coming from with it.  Maybe your opinion is slanted by the participants in this process?  "Takers" and "users" as well as men more than willing to "save a woman" seem to gravitate to it?  I can think of many examples inside or outside of this process that fit your profile.  Your hypothesis does also explain the fine tuned man hunting skills of many fsuw however.

As in any generality,there will be many exceptions to the "rule."  One that pops out at me is my former MIL.  She was and still is the primary provider for her family even though she has been in a long term marriage.  Another thought that I have about your hypothesis is that it just may describe a more traditional assignment of roles within a marriage where the man is expected to be the primary provider and the woman is expected to be the rock in the household.  Dunno.  It sure got me thinking though.  Thanks for that.
KenC

[Rina_G]

Hi KenC!
I've read your story some days ago and would like to say you thanks - very wise and interesting.
Good luck in new searching!

[Jooky]

I never saw, met, or even heard of a RW in Russia who purposely left home at a young age, got a job, got an apartment, education, and became fully independent while at the same time make something of herself - all on her own and without anyone - as a matter of personal choice.

Hmmm... this describes nearly all of the Russian women I've met. I haven't seen a big difference in this between Russian and American women, except that in Russia all this is done in a harsher environment.

Yes, young Russians tend to live more years at home with their parents, out of necessity. They also tend to help support their parents and grandparents while in the US youngsters tend to get help from their parents.

For RW, there seem to be a constant search and need for the proverbial Provider.

Maybe your view is biased by knowing not just Russian women, but Russian women who sought a foreign husband? In young Russian couples, at least the many that I know, the man isn't the provider. Women are expected to work and they are equal if not greater contributors.

Of course there are women who seek sponsors, but these are the exception from what I've seen.

[Jooky]

Using your example of singles.ru, what would the response be to a young, handsome AM who was contented to live hand-to-mouth or stay forever above his parents' garage?  

Who knows? Only a dumbass would mention this in their introduction.  
 

Also, would not a young, handsome, financially secure AM get a much lower response than his RM counterpart because singles.ru women are not seeking to leave their country?

Also hard to say. Honestly, in my experience with singles.ru, I received the same response rate that I got using bride.ru. That just tells me that I was being realistic in what I'm looking for.

I think using singles.ru as a reality check, as Neo mentioned, is a good idea. If a man puts up a profile and fires off simple introductions ('Hello, let's get to know each other!') he'll get an idea of what kind of women out there are really interested in him. I don't think women on singles.ru are going to immediately take into consideration whether they would need to leave their country if they married this man who just said Hello. They'll just look at your photo and profile and if they like what they see, they'll at least say Hello back.

Being from the US, or another foreign country will be an advantage with some women, who'll find you exotic, and a disadvantage with others, who have a bad view of foreigners. Overall it balances out.