Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[GQBlues]

Actually KenC, believe it or not we probably spent a great deal of time discussing these. Opportunities, options, hardships, differences, etc...She's fairly pragmatic about these types of issues and quite understandbly she's protective/defensive on many front. But she doesn't let me get away with too many things either.  

But going back to the subject, you and Jooky do have a point that what I pointed out have a profound significance in the sense the greater sampling of RWs we are discussing are atypical and involved in the process for the most part. While I concede that there's a lot of truth to that, I make the contention however about a simple fact we know so well. RWs, in general, are stigmatized if they are single by the time they reach the age of 30. Nearly hopeless by 40s (please - this has nothing to do with the agency myth that there's more women than men).

These days, conversely, there are far more AWs earning their degrees than do men (there were recent studies done that showed female first time home buyers had risen to be on par with men even before the fallout. New home designs are impacted by this and started to design homes with women in mind) and roughly 30-40 is what many AWs now see as the right age to seek a partner, but only if they are already professionally established themselves. In other words, getting married becomes a complimentary extension of life and NOT as a necessity. To me, this defines maturity much more closely. Nat had to get used to the idea when she was in UC before that over 90% of the student body didn't have time at all outside campus because they all worked jobs for a living. I doubt the same can be said in Russia.

Jooky, I don't doubt your observation at all. But what I can tell you is this...Nat had a circle of 9 GFs in her University in Novo (where you spend a great deal of your time in). Every single one of them literally got married after University and almost all in the same year. They either lived in their parent's flat for a while, or struggled to make ends meet renting a flat for themselves. When the oil prices plummeted back down and the economy came tumbling down, like some AWs/AMs, the became boomerang kids overnight. Bottom line? An average 20-something American's mindset is to fly off the roost. It is odd when they don't. While an average 20-something Russian mindset is well...feel free to fill in the blanks. But it isn't odd to see a 30-something Russian still living with their parents.

I am not putting down RWs, I am merely stating things many of us are already aware of. I strongly believe that under similar environmental and societal options and opportunities, both AW/RW will be doing the same similar things trying their best to deal with it. It has little to do with one being more mature than the other as a group.

I actually believe the bias is more in line with the fact this group have both the affinity and the empathy towards RWs, thus cut the line in favor of them. That's understandable for me. To illustrate that point, take an average 30(40)-something AW / RW. If an AW is scarred by a previous relationship, folks immediately say she have issues and baggages. If a RW is scarred by a previous relationship, folks say she's a survivalist. LOL. C'mon guys, you know this to be true.

I am not saying one group is better than the other. All I'm saying is - believing somehow one group is more mature than the other is really stretching this a bit.

[Jooky]

I don't see the connection between younger marriages or living with parents and a young Russian woman's need for a provider.

Taking Nat's group of friends as an example, had they married providers they wouldn't have struggled or needed to fall back on their parents. It's just a harsh imbalanced economy that doesn't allow for kids to break free as easily, or for parents to help their kids do so, as they do here in the US. This applies to young men as it does to young women. The women can't and don't typically depend on men to provide for them. They all struggle together.

Trust me, I don't think many Russian youngsters are happily provided for, living in a cramped apartment with their parents and babushka. They'd get the hell out if they could. As soon as they can, they do.

You can look at this way: Americans have more opportunities and freedom to leave the roost at a young age. Russians don't, and in that regards they do have it tougher.

I strongly believe that under similar environmental and societal options and opportunities, both AW/RW will be doing the same similar things trying their best to deal with it.

I agree, but also wonder. So many people here have this 'pity me, life is so tough' attitude, taking meds for stress, anxiety and you name it, when we have it damned easy. I don't see much of that in Russia.

It has little to do with one being more mature than the other as a group.

Yup. I think that the idea that young Russian women in general are more mature than American women is a complete crock of ....

[BC]

I don't see the connection between younger marriages or living with parents and a young Russian woman's need for a provider.

Taking Nat's group of friends as an example, had they married providers they wouldn't have struggled or needed to fall back on their parents. It's just a harsh imbalanced economy that doesn't allow for kids to break free as easily, or for parents to help their kids do so, as they do here in the US. This applies to young men as it does to young women. The women can't and don't typically depend on men to provide for them. They all struggle together.

Trust me, I don't think many Russian youngsters are happily provided for, living in a cramped apartment with their parents and babushka. They'd get the hell out if they could. As soon as they can, they do.

Do agree with you Jooky

Here in southern IT I see parallels, where 'kids' live with mom and pop even into their 30's if not yet married.  They may have a girlfriend or even fiancee for years waiting for the moment marriage and their own housing arrangement is possible.  I am more of the 'you hit the road when you either reach 18 or decide to stop going to school' type.  Did get some nasty looks from neighbors when the time came, but my son did have options that were not available to the local kids.  We did put together a plan and support arrangement, not like kicking him out to the street.

As for 'provider', the WM group as a whole probably do a lot (to the tune of millions) to promote the possibility for those that see little or difficult options.  There are 'providers' here also.. but it's a rather limited crowd mainly businessmen/politicians and their mistresses.  I don't see bunches of IT women flocking in droves to find foreign men.. granted some do, but not anything like the numbers we see in FSU. 

In my book, anyone signing up at an agency pushing foreign marriages (man or woman) is looking for a BBD.

[Misha]

For RW, there seem to be a constant search and need for the proverbial Provider. It's almost cultish.

Maybe that describes the RW you married, certainly not my wife. She worked hard, made a career for herself and managed to scrimp and save and buy herself her own place. She was more than capable of earning what she needed and achieving her goals without a husband or a lover or mom or dad.

[GoodOlBoy]

I am more of the 'you hit the road when you either reach 18 or decide to stop going to school' type.  Did get some nasty looks from neighbors when the time came, but my son did have options that were not available to the local kids.  We did put together a plan and support arrangement, not like kicking him out to the street.

Just curious BC.

What if you had a "Daughter" instead of a Son.

Would you have given her the "boot" at 18 also?  :evil:

Be honest now!


GOB


BTW......My Father and you think exactly alike and I was going to do the same thing with my child (sink or swim), BUT......I had a daughter instead of a son and a sick (dying) wife.

[GQBlues]

I don't see the connection between younger marriages or living with parents and a young Russian woman's need for a provider.

Taking Nat's group of friends as an example, had they married providers they wouldn't have struggled or needed to fall back on their parents. It's just a harsh imbalanced economy that doesn't allow for kids to break free as easily, or for parents to help their kids do so, as they do here in the US. This applies to young men as it does to young women. The women can't and don't typically depend on men to provide for them. They all struggle together.

Trust me, I don't think many Russian youngsters are happily provided for, living in a cramped apartment with their parents and babushka. They'd get the hell out if they could. As soon as they can, they do.

You can look at this way: Americans have more opportunities and freedom to leave the roost at a young age. Russians don't, and in that regards they do have it tougher.

Jooky, therein lies the connection. If you make a comprehensive accounting of atypical FSUW in the international dating scene (where the age ranges from 18- whatever) then consider the bracket from the males' side (where the average age is 40-mid-40s?), the likelihood of relationships with age differences will occur. That's the connection.

As you noted in general, RWs are in fact economically restrained not by their choice, but rather dictated by the overall socio-economic conditions in FSU. By your example, marrying a RM their age have a greater rate of difficulties and challenges - thus higher probability of failures. I believe this is where the notion of getting involved with an older man (not foreign) is not necessarily taboo'd but rather a viable option to escape dire or challenged conditions. Mind you, this also exist in our society though not to the same degree as in FSU.

But as Neo pointed out upthread, the problem is exacerbated when a typical WM, who is not socially savvy, gets hold of the fact there will be much younger RW willing to engage him and not understand the underpinnings of what he's getting into, then the result is more likely than not, predictable. Chances are great there won't be too much thought factored in but rather justifications.

Lastly, just to note - as I'm sure Gator can attest to this because I know he's been to a few more countries and have been exposed to a few more culture, social restraints or even poverty is not necessarily a good reason for young people not to seek their independence as there are cultures out there that do despite of it. To me that is simply an excuse not a reason.

Making excuses is exactly how and why people get in trouble in these relationships in the first place. Then justification takes it's course.
 

Maybe that describes the RW you married, certainly not my wife. She worked hard, made a career for herself and managed to scrimp and save and buy herself her own place. She was more than capable of earning what she needed and achieving her goals without a husband or a lover or mom or dad.

LOL OK if you say so. No argument from me once again. I'll simply dismiss your obvious insecurities are caused by other reasons then.

[Misha]

LOL OK if you say so. No argument from me once again. I'll simply dismiss your obvious insecurities are caused by other reasons then.

If I say so? What can I say, she did not inherit an apartment, no boyfriend or husband bought it and we sold it. Where exactly is it a question of I "say so"? No insecurities here. Not my fault that I looked for the right kind of woman, not a princess or a party girl  You keep harping upon my insecurities, which makes me question yours.

[Gator]

My own belief is that men who are entirely motivated by youth and beauty leave themselves wide open to the very predatory pretty dolls who are entirely motivated by money and material success.

Excellent point, and exactly on topic.

the men who are more motivated to find a decent family girl are likely to be fishing in the 5/6's and are less likely to encounter the sort of predatory self-motivated individuals that swim these waters.

Don't know if I would say 5/6's.  No, I would not say that.  Maybe mostly 7/8s, a few 5s, yet not the 9/10s. 

In my experience the 9/10s have been spoiled, not by AM, but by RM.  By spoiled I mean someone like your former acquaintance who said "how dare you, I am so beautiful."   

I have encountered a couple of the older RW who still had the philosophy of "Buy me a _______."  "Why should I buy you that?"  "Because a man wants his beautiful woman looking even more beautiful."

A 9/10 who has never married and who received her degree after she turned 21 may have been sponsored by a RM of means.  A 9/10 over 30 is inexplicably less desirable than those under 30, and she may now be seeking her former sponsored life via the international agency route. I never dated them, never attempted to, and admittedly I could not if she were the least bit sincere.

If a man is prepared to strike such a bargain, then has been commented he should be realistic that such a relationship has a in-built shelf-life.

I like this analogy.

I can honestly say out of the hundred or more girls i have known or been on 1 on 1 dates over the years they are each motivated by entirely different things, I have figured out some distinctive character traits between ultra-materialistic girls who are in a hurry to live like dynasty, and girls who think 2.2 kids, a 2 room apartment and a nice dog would be perfect….

Your list of traits was not 1, 2, 3 but several were there in your post.

One trait that caught my attention, and one I have stressed was your remark about photos.

didn't have very provocative or wildly glamerous profiles…. looked quite plain.

My wife looks great in a bikini yet she refused to place bikini photos on her profile even though EModels strongly encouraged it.  First, she is a little shy and modest and could not see herself broadcast over the Internet.  Second, she thought it attracted a variety of idiots.

[Gator]

GQBlues,

You have addressed my comment about survival instincts, and also managed to stir the pot. 

I played golf today and celebrated because I shot a 77 on a tough course and was only one over par with my ball resting on the 15th green in regulation.  Then I rushed my stepson and stepdaughter to their Pop Warner football and cheerleading practice.  So I am a little tardy to respond.

Almost everyone seems to be thinking that RW are no more mature than their AW peers.  That too has long been my thinking, so we can agree to debunk another agency myth, a myth invented to encourage older men to chase younger RW. 

I still contend that there is one area where many RW are different and that stems from surviving a economic crises.  Perhaps there are some coddled young RW in their 20s; however,  I never met these women because I focused on women in their 30s and early 40s with children.  Perhaps you never dated these older RW.

I discovered that almost all of my target RW had endured some difficult times, so difficult as to have brought many a AW to her knees.  Each such RW had a survivor component to their personality. 

It made them very pragmatic, much more than their AW peers.  They seemed to have well tuned street smarts.  While some men may think such women would naturally be independent and hard, many of them can be genuinely sweet on the outside yet hard as steel on the inside.  I actually can deal with this, and it has been helpful to have such a solid complementary partner at my side.

[KenC]

Gator,
Nice round!

I don't know if it translates into "more mature" but the fsuw are on a faster track than AW.  They marry younger and have children younger than most Americans.  They think they're getting over the hill or at least past the age of desirability at 25 or 30.  Now a days, AW put a priority on establishing a career first, marriage and babies second and third.  AW's biological clock doesn't start ticking loud until their late 30's.

"Surviving an economic crisis" has not been my experience either.  Or Neo's for that matter.  When the time came to buck up and "survive" they were both gone.  That's not "surviving", that's bailing.

My daughter is about the same age as Lena.  She has a well established career, has yet to be married and is a hell of a lot better "survivor" than Lena.
KenC

[BC]

I discovered that almost all of my target RW had endured some difficult times, so difficult as to have brought many a AW to her knees.  Each such RW had a survivor component to their personality. 

LOL.. Does your wife 'stash'?

My wife does..  All cabinets, three freezers, two fridges overstuffed with everything imaginable.  Provisions to easily last two or three months.  I did some sorting during her absence and bought two more tall cabinets so that we could at least get to the point that we knew what we had without digging..  30 pounds of pasta????  I could easily empty the freezer and puzzle together half a cow, a whole pig and couple lamb, quite a few chickens and one rabbit not to mention a fisherman's take of assorted seafood.

When single WM go shopping, it's more like what do I need to get through TODAY..  No wonder she gets tiffed when I (rarely anymore) accompany her shopping, constantly asking 'What in the world do we need that for'..

Is that a survivor component?

[GQBlues]

Gator-

Golf!?! I just walked in from the range tonight trying to find my groove for the weekend. It's been a long summer fighting to get my lost swing back on track. I started to toy with shaping shots earlier this year because I was literally stuck at 11 and just couldn't go over the hurdle and break 70. I thought I needed to learn to shape my shots to better control my course management. Bad idea. It destroyed my alignment and timing completely and it degraded from difficulties getting out of the tee box, to losing distance control, to almost tanking my short game. Late spring to almost all summer - I hacked all the way back to the 90s. Luckily I started to get the feel once again and had tone back down to mid 80s the last two times out.

As for RWs and relationships, quite frankly I don't spend too much time tinkering with the dynamics of cross cultural relations anymore. There's a time where it reaches a point of diminishing return for me. You can even see that on message boards like this and others. For years we've been discussing absolutes in a very subjective background. The more things changed, the more they remain the same. It seem silly even now to be discussing these dynamics over again. Simply, I am far more captivated with the woman in my Russian more so than dealing with the Russian in my gal. We live as a normal couple and have done away with the nuances that seem to follow WM/RW marriages. For as long as I have known you Gator, I've always admired and respected your thoughts and opinion firmly. But if only for this instance I resign in agreeing to disagree with you about survivability subject.

FWIW, Nat had been relatively consistent from tee to green though her short game and putting still need some time. But like everyone else, she is convinced she's just a new Odyssey White Hot away to get her putting game together and bag more skins from me than she does now. I've been giving her three shots/hole and this summer got to be pretty expensive for me. Lord knows if she gets hot with the putter, I know I better rethink this proposition. Better yet, I'm thinking maybe now is the best time for that birdie...

Happy Labor Day weekend...

[Gator]

I don't know if it translates into "more mature" but the fsuw are on a faster track than AW....marry younger....have children younger than most Americans....think they're getting over the hill or at least past the age of desirability at 25 or 30.

Good points.  However, my wife says that is the “old” Russian way of life for women.  Today more and more younger RW are adopting the AW way of life exactly as you described:  "... career first, marriage and babies second and third...biological clock doesn't start ticking loud until their late 30's."

"Surviving an economic crisis" has not been my experience either.  Or Neo's for that matter.  When the time came to buck up and "survive" they were both gone.  That's not "surviving", that's bailing.

If a boat is taking water, "bailing" would have been appropriate.  I get your point.  Your two RW abandoned ship, leaving the captain alone.  Maybe the central core value of someone with strong survival instincts is "me first" and the hell with "stand by my man."  Do you think they felt any guilt?

I like to think that there is something more noble in a good woman.  Combat survival skills stress staying with your comrades as a unit when hell breaks loose.

On the positive side:

1.   Today your ship is still afloat and no longer listing.
2.   You and Neo may soon find happiness with another (and have a good time doing it), and your happiness could be more appropriately profound and complete than you experienced with your younger ex's.
3.   And just because your and Neo's ex’s abandoned your ships does not mean they will find a better ship (the ranks of divorced AW are filled with women who are drifting at sea). 

My daughter is about the same age as Lena.  She has a well established career, has yet to be married and is a hell of a lot better "survivor" than Lena.

By that do you mean your daughter is more independent and can thrive with just her own income?  Or is there more?

[Gator]

LOL.. Does your wife 'stash'?

Just shoes.     I suppose we could chew on the leather.

She will buy some things forgetting that she already has a adequate supply at home (and she is not forgetful). 

[Gator]

As for RWs and relationships....Simply, I am far more captivated with the woman in my Russian more so than dealing with the Russian in my gal. We live as a normal couple and have done away with the nuances that seem to follow WM/RW marriages.

I doubt you have done away with all nuances.  In a blended family, there surely must be some vestiges from the Old World (and I am not talking about taking shoes off in the house and eating insipid buckwheat).  I would think that the two of you are taking the best from both cultures and combining them into something new.  Yet, I would say that your individual personalities have far more to do with the outcome rather than the mere fact that you are AM and she is RW.

Happy Labor Day weekend...

Thanks, and you too.  Regarding golf, it is apparent that you are working at your job too much.

[KenC]

If a boat is taking water, "bailing" would have been appropriate.  I get your point.  Your two RW abandoned ship, leaving the captain alone.  Maybe the central core value of someone with strong survival instincts is "me first" and the hell with "stand by my man."  Do you think they felt any guilt?

None that she would ever admit.  My "princess complex" is in practice fully here.  "Me first" and everything else doesn't much matter.

I like to think that there is something more noble in a good woman.  Combat survival skills stress staying with your comrades as a unit when hell breaks loose.

To be honest, this is the part that REALLY shocked me.  Lena's Grandfather and Mother were the biggest influences on her life.  Gramps was at Leningrad and her Mom has stood by her alcoholic hubby for many years.  Lena even told me before "We Bely**** women stand by our men." 

By that do you mean your daughter is more independent and can thrive with just her own income?  Or is there more?

More than just financially.  Emotional and character differences abound.  Many long term friends and not a filtering about, jumping from one goal to another without completion.  When the going gets rough, Lena tends to run.  No sense of completion on anything started.  Where as my daughter finishes all she starts.
KenC

[Jooky]

Jooky, therein lies the connection.

I still don't fully follow. If you're talking about young women who, because of the economic situation, will take any route to escape their current situation, even marrying a guy they'd normally never consider even dating... then yes, I agree, these women exist. These women gravitate towards the bride business, of course. However, they represent a minority of Russian women. I don't think they represent the largest portion of the women on bridal sites either. They just tend to be the most active and aggressive.

These women's need for a provider is temporary and lasts either as long as they're kept happy, or more often, until they get enough of a boost to pick up on their own.

Do you see more of this need for a provider among Russian women you've met in the US, or those still back in Russia? Maybe we've just met different groups of Russian women? Honestly about 90% of the Russian women I've met finished their education and built their careers without anyone's help.

I still don't understand equating women getting married at a slightly younger age than here or in Europe with the search for a provider. That assumes that the men are providing for women that stay at home, making Russian women very 'traditional' in the eyes of most bride seekers.   But that's not what life in Russia is like.

[Misha]

Maybe we've just met different groups of Russian women? Honestly about 90% of the Russian women I've met finished their education and built their careers without anyone's help.

Same here. However, from what I gather, men seek a certain type of women, of course find that type as they either ignore or do not see all the other available women or are not willing to put in the time and effort to find other types, then at some point they are disappointed in the type of woman they sought and found, and seek then generalize to all RW instead of assuming responsibility for seeking the wrong type of woman 

That assumes that the men are providing for women that stay at home, making Russian women very 'traditional' in the eyes of most bride seekers.   But that's not what life in Russia is like.

Pretty much. Though maternity leaves tend to be more generous in terms of time that can be taken off work after a child, I do not know of any RW who fit the June Cleaver stay at home "traditional" woman stereotype.

[GQBlues]

....Maybe we've just met different groups of Russian women? Honestly about 90% of the Russian women I've met finished their education and built their careers without anyone's help....But that's not what life in Russia is like.

90% Wow!

Definitely not the Russia I've come to know - or at least the Novosibirsk I've come to know. So bear with me with this...

What's the average flat rental in Novo these days? 18-25 thousand rubles? Last info I had a typical studio apartment was 20,000 rubles/mo. Likely a lot more these days, yes? Maybe one outside the city center or across the river, 15 thousand? For the sake of this exercise, let's decrease that amount even. Let's say 15,000 for a studio IN the center.

What's the prevailing wage for younger people...last info I had was 250 - 300 rubles/hr for someone without a degree working part time on average? Is this close today?

Now you need to explain to me how every single one of the 90% of the Russians you know, or hang out with in Novo - or Russia as a whole, went to the university to get their degrees while worked enough to pay for an apartment, food, basic necessities, living expenses, etc...all on their own without anyone's help because the math you seem to be implying is a bit fuzzy to me....

When you said they did this on their own, did you mean they went to school WHILE living in their parent's house and not have to worry too much about rent, food, living expenses, etc...Is this what you mean? If it is, to me that hardly define doing things on their own.  ??? Which would be what I previously stated, while it's dire and challenging, it hardly defines 'hard life'.

Do you agree with that?

[Ade]

Both of you are wrong. Apartments/Studios/rooms aren't that much - a quick check turned up various from 3.5k to 5k for a room to 10, 12, 15, 18k for a full apartment.

Even so, my wife thinks that nowhere near 90% of Russians move out of their family apartment while they are studying and of those that do, a lot share apartments with friends like she did.

[GQBlues]

I can agree with that SJ...though one of my wife's GF and her hubby rented a studio by the center two years ago and it cost them 20.0/mo. She graduated with a degree and her hubby actually install swimming pools (? not really sure exactly) but either way, she tells my wife they make roughly 35.0 combined a little over a year ago.

My wife tells me that prices change fairly briskly. That's according to my in-laws. Food being one of the more pricey, volatile items. Mainly because of inflation.

[Misha]

What's the average flat rental in Novo these days? 18-25 thousand rubles?

Russian universities have "obshchezhitie" or student residences. Students can live here while studying. This is how, for example, that students from rural areas or more distant regions of Russia can go to university 

[Jooky]

Hmmm again GQ...

I'm starting to wonder about your message in this thread. You seem to have a negative view of young Russian women, as if they're spoiled princesses that can't do a thing on their own. Where is this coming from? Is this based on Nat's group of friends, or Russian women you've met in L.A.?

I wonder, cause you're really twisting things out of proportion.

20,000 rubles / month gets you a nice (by Russian standards) studio in the very center of Novosibirsk, where prices are jacked up. 10,000 per month is closer to the average, and you can rent a small flat for 5000 or less to get by.

http://realty.ngs.ru/ if you don't believe me.

You ignoring most obvious thing: room-mates. That's how young people anywhere afford to live away from their parents.

As an example I can give my ex-girlfriend and her group of friends. Yes, they lived at home while studying, and they didn't choose degrees that would lead to solid careers. Honestly, I would have expected them to be still stuck at home working simple jobs, but that's not what they did. They all moved out, moved to Moscow, shared cramped flats, worked several jobs and saved up to further their training to find better jobs. No providing dudes involved. That's typical of what I've seen in Russia.

I didn't say all these women moved out and supported themselves while in school. Some did, some lived with their parents, most stayed in school dorms, just like anywhere else. Sure, more young girls live with their parents longer than they they do in the US. Many (at least that I've met) contribute to living expenses while at home. That doesn't make them the parasites looking for that next provider that your making them out to be.

If you're going to tell me most young American girls make it through college without their parents help and support systems that aren't available in Russia such as student loans and easy to get credit, you've got to be kidding me.

Personally, even if Russian women were looking at men as providers, that'd be alright with me. I don't have a negative view of this. But, it's just not the case. I don't buy it at all. Maybe in the bridal business, but not in Russia overall.

Jaded, I'm not saying 90% of Russians move away from their family while studying. I'm saying 90% of the women I've met finished their education and made careers for themselves without needing a provider. In part it's because of what Misha said, you find what you seek. In part it's because most Russians I meet are through friends, and birds of a feather flock together.

Still, I've seen enough varied Russian life to know that women don't usually look for men as their providers. Women work just the same as men and couples struggle or succeed together.

I'm not saying this is a particularly hard life (the hardest part about Russian life for me is the miserable weather), but it's tougher to find a good job and get by than in the US. Sure, youngsters often get support from their parents in the form of a place to stay while in the US students get support from their parents in the form of cash. What's the difference?

PS: If you believe the statistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mar_rat-people-marriage-rate

people in the US tend to marry slightly younger and more often than in Russia.

[Jooky]

She graduated with a degree and her hubby actually install swimming pools

So how does this fit in with the 'cult of provider seekers'? Seems like a normal couple, where she might even contribute more to the pie than he does. Or does she not work?

[Misha]

http://realty.ngs.ru/ if you don't believe me.

You ignoring most obvious thing: room-mates. That's how young people anywhere afford to live away from their parents.

Exactly. Three young women can rent a 2-room apartment for 12,000 roubles (which seems to be the median price) and thus pay 4,000 rubles each for rent. Where there is a will, there is always a way.