Age Disparity: Once more into the breach :)

[JR]

In another thread some very good points are being made about pursuing/marrying someone of the opposite sex who age is quite different from your own. Unfortunately I fear most of it is being lost due to the nature of the original posting and the following 15 pages or so of progression towards the current debate (ie: hijacking of the thread).

So I thought I'd repost some of my favorite quotes on the subject and let it roll form there.

I muddled the cutting and pasting process, am too lazy to go back and start over so I'll just list the quoted and hopefully won't piss too many peeps off. Thanks to the following for their wisdom on the subject: Gator, neo, GQBlues, Scott in Crimea and Jooky. There are many more good words on the subject and if you find and put em here or write your own.

Shall we get started?

Jooky, therein lies the connection. If you make a comprehensive accounting of atypical FSUW in the international dating scene (where the age ranges from 18- whatever) then consider the bracket from the males' side (where the average age is 40-mid-40s?), the likelihood of relationships with age differences will occur. That's the connection.

As you noted in general, RWs are in fact economically restrained not by their choice, but rather dictated by the overall socio-economic conditions in FSU. By your example, marrying a RM their age have a greater rate of difficulties and challenges - thus higher probability of failures. I believe this is where the notion of getting involved with an older man (not foreign) is not necessarily taboo'd but rather a viable option to escape dire or challenged conditions. Mind you, this also exist in our society though not to the same degree as in FSU.

But as Neo pointed out upthread, the problem is exacerbated when a typical WM, who is not socially savvy, gets hold of the fact there will be much younger RW willing to engage him and not understand the underpinnings of what he's getting into, then the result is more likely than not, predictable. Chances are great there won't be too much thought factored in but rather justifications.

Making excuses is exactly how and why people get in trouble in these relationships in the first place. Then justification takes it's course.

For RW, there seem to be a constant search and need for the proverbial Provider. It's almost cultish. I often wonder why can't they just make something of themselves first THEN look for a mate? You know, like how many AMs demonize AWs for doing these days...

I'm a perpetual and a casual observer. I reject the notion of absolutes in generalities. I do think people believe what they like to believe despite what reality dictates. I also refuse to agree with things because it's fashionable. Or maybe this is simply a matter of personal definition of what maturity is, dunno.

Just one of those things...

But going back to the subject, you and Jooky do have a point that what I pointed out have a profound significance in the sense the greater sampling of RWs we are discussing are atypical and involved in the process for the most part. While I concede that there's a lot of truth to that, I make the contention however about a simple fact we know so well. RWs, in general, are stigmatized if they are single by the time they reach the age of 30. Nearly hopeless by 40s (please - this has nothing to do with the agency myth that there's more women than men).

Now, why, d'ya think that 8/10 - 12/10 women from the FSU would go against this entire western thing and look for a man who was overweight, ball and 30 years older than her?

There is a simple test to check you are not deluding yourself, post your profile on singles.ru - find the (much fewer) attractive women on there compared to a agency site and contact them, see what happens, i  would bet 8/10 times you dont even get a response, compared to the 8/10 times you get a response from agency girls.

We shouldn't delude ourselves, we get to punch over our weight in looks and ages by virtue of our nationality and contents of our wallet. good looking girls have zero problem getting a man in the FSU, my ex-sister in law was shacked up with a trainee doctor 1 year younger than her.

I think men try and find reasons to justify it to protect their egos, but the reality is that the only women on the planet prepared to compromise on age and looks are ones from countries in some sort of economic turmoil and its this reason and this reason alone, a desire for a better future that drives them into a relationship with a older man and not some love of pensioner care.

Most RW have a mandatory requirement (among other mandatory criteria) that the man be able to provide a stable and secure marriage without financial worries.  Upon achieving that, many preferential criteria come into play.  Nobody is perfect so any man represents something of a tradeoff.  With many RW, however, age is a mandatory criterion.

In contrast, your description if I am reading you correctly would suggest that the largest wallet wins regardless of other factors.  This may be the case with some RW but not all.
 
Using your example of singles.ru, what would the response be to a young, handsome AM who was contented to live hand-to-mouth or stay forever above his parents' garage?  Also, would not a young, handsome, financially secure AM get a much lower response than his RM counterpart because singles.ru women are not seeking to leave their country?

I have noticed that the RW who came to America as a young university student and stayed have married someone within 10 years of their age.  None of these husbands seem to be suffering financially.  Some are scrimping to save money for a house, yet the RW wife is happy

I should make clear I've got zero problem with guys chasing young skirt, and I know for a certain fact since time began a sector of pretty Russian girls have favored old wealthy men and vice versa.

I also know for a certain factor there is a sector of RW that are decent home loving girls who prioritize a husband who is loving, kind and a good father over anything materialistic - and of course there are all points in between.

The issue I think is understanding what type of girl/woman you are involved with, and what your own motivations are that might lead you into a certain situation.

My own belief is that men who are entirely motivated by youth and beauty leave themselves wide open to the very predatory pretty dolls who are entirely motivated by money and material success. The men who are more motivated to find a decent family girl are likely to be fishing in the 5/6's and are less likely to encounter the sort of predatory self-motivated individuals that swim these waters.

Both my wife and KenC's wife were cut from the same cloth: that is they were both young, attractive and clearly their primary motivation for a life in the west was a better life with little to no serious problems. If either of them were motivated otherwise they would have stuck with us through the difficult times as well as the good. What it highlights is both women regardless of age difference weren’t prepared to put up with hardship, and men need to be aware that a LOT of women as GQ point out turn to the agencys and WM as a easy escape route where they can trade their beauty and youth for a easy life.

If a man is prepared to strike such a bargain, then has been commented he should be realistic that such a relationship has a in-built shelf-life.

A russian friend told me "even a dog knows the value of its bark". i don't really know what he meant but I sort of think he is saying everyone woman knows her value in the scheme of things, and the young pretty girls get a truckload of attention both domestically and internationally once they are in the agencies, depending on their moral stance that can corrupt them into thinking they can just take what they want.

Of course there are women who do not think this way, I'm lucky enough to be writing to one of them, I've seen both her profile "glamour" shots and in our correspondance her "Normal life" shots where she looks pretty much like any other girl, unlike however a lot of ultra-high-maintenance-smokin-a-kovas she is a down to earth family girl who clearly has a very good relationship with her parents, a positive view of men in general and a firm belief in family values - this bears out in her "normal life photos".

I can honestly say out of the hundred or more girls i have known or been on 1 on 1 dates over the years they are each motivated by entirely different things, I have figured out some distinctive character traits between ultra-materialistic girls who are in a hurry to live like dynasty, and girls who think 2.2 kids, a 2 room apartment and a nice dog would be perfect.

But in my experience, all the men I know who have been hugely successful have gone about this in a very realistic way, the sort of women they are involved in didn't have very provocative or wildly glamerous profiles, in fact they looked quite plain. I remember seeing a friends wifes profile then meeting her in person and being genuinly shocked has stunning she was in real life, just as I can remember seeing a girls (heavily photoshopped "myspace angles") photos on her profile and thinking how utterly whack she was in real life. yet the photoshopped girl was the one with the attitude brought about by the thousands of fawning letters she had got from agency men who never set foot on the soil.

So i really think its a mistake to concentrate on age and beauty as prime motivators, I know girls of 18 who are more mature and will make better wives than women of 40. and vice versa, the most important question (and what I was getting at) was the importance of understanding what is really motivating the woman you are writing to, what does she honestly want? is it simply a better lifestyle? a life with no problems? diamonds and sports cars? - these questions should be more of a concern than how you can get a 23 year old, because I generally think if you have to really "go after" a young girl to convince her you are the right choice for her then you are making a huge mistake, usually in promising a material compensation package for choosing you.

I think if a RW "is just not that into you" and then shes going to go along with you for the ride because you run around her, her mother or buy her gifts and generally do everything for her then you are making a huge rod for your back, I'm sure most of the properly married guys understand it should be the other way round, really good RW love to spoil their men and take care of them. they knit you hats, darn your shirts, cook food that makes you fat, kill you with sex in the bedroom, its a point of pride to a decent RW to have a good husband she can take care of, the sort of women who expect men to run around after them and "nanny" them, the sorts who want a "special lady to make house clean", who take taxi's 100 yards down the road, who think sex is a priveledge not a right - these are the worst kind of women both here in the west and here, and no matter how hot she is, how young she is and how much you want her she will make your every living day a nightmare.

The acid test for me is always when you go to her country, how well does she take care of you? does she meet you at the airport, negotiate a lower taxi fare? does she have you stay with her family or sort you out an apartment at a "Local rate"? does she take you to the supermarket and cook for you? does she take you to her favourite places? does she introduce you to her friends with pride or hide you with shame? does she ring up to check you got home safe? does she always try and include you in a conversation and translate things for you or just ignore you? - we talk a lot about how we should behave when we are with women, but often its overlooked is how are they treating us in return?

Someone posted recently that "we deserve better treatment" and i think its right, an awful lot of guys are flying half way round the world to be doormatted by spoilt young women who really don't deserve the attention, the really unlucky ones go on and marry them, I think we can forgive too much bad behavior simply because a woman is young or pretty (KenC's princess syndrome) when in reality we can overlook the women (regardless of age or looks) who have the hearts of gold.

to sum up, I remember a scornful vitriol from a young woman in ukraine who i was breaking off relations with who told me "how dare you, i am so beautiful!" i told her simply "but on the inside, in your heart you are the ugliest person i ever met".

My own belief is that men who are entirely motivated by youth and beauty leave themselves wide open to the very predatory pretty dolls who are entirely motivated by money and material success.

Excellent point, and exactly on topic.
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the men who are more motivated to find a decent family girl are likely to be fishing in the 5/6's and are less likely to encounter the sort of predatory self-motivated individuals that swim these waters.

Don't know if I would say 5/6's.  No, I would not say that.  Maybe mostly 7/8s, a few 5s, yet not the 9/10s. 

In my experience the 9/10s have been spoiled, not by AM, but by RM.  By spoiled I mean someone like your former acquaintance who said "how dare you, I am so beautiful."     

I have encountered a couple of the older RW who still had the philosophy of "Buy me a _______."  "Why should I buy you that?"  "Because a man wants his beautiful woman looking even more beautiful."

A 9/10 who has never married and who received her degree after she turned 21 may have been sponsored by a RM of means.  A 9/10 over 30 is inexplicably less desirable than those under 30, and she may now be seeking her former sponsored life via the international agency route. I never dated them, never attempted to, and admittedly I could not if she were the least bit sincere.

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If a man is prepared to strike such a bargain, then has been commented he should be realistic that such a relationship has a in-built shelf-life.

I like this analogy.


Quote from: ScottinCrimea on September 02, 2009, 12:08:02 AM

You want to cite me one recent example of a successful, longterm large age gap relationship?  In return I can cite you 100 or more that were not successful.  Again, I ask, what makes you so unique or special that you can beat the 100 to 1 odds?

Good point.  Age gap relationships are unique. 

Besides asking what is unique about yourself: ask what is so unique about the RW that she would do something that very, very few of her peers would do.

And the most important, what is unique about how the two of you relate?

Quote
My hat is off to Gator who is in just such a relationship but has not dismissed the issues but has freely acknowledged them and recognized that he, also, is early in his relationship and has reserved judgement until such a time as he has actually experienced them.  Based on his realistic approach, I see him as having a much better chance of beating the odds.

Thanks Scott.  You are correct.  By taking our time to build our relationship, I have lowered the odds from 100-to-1 to 50-to-1!  Who knows.  Each day is a blessing.
After our years together I still had my misgivings until she did something that was remarkable, really remarkable.  After that, nothing would stop us.

Also hard to say. Honestly, in my experience with singles.ru, I received the same response rate that I got using bride.ru. That just tells me that I was being realistic in what I'm looking for.

I think using singles.ru as a reality check, as Neo mentioned, is a good idea. If a man puts up a profile and fires off simple introductions ('Hello, let's get to know each other!') he'll get an idea of what kind of women out there are really interested in him. I don't think women on singles.ru are going to immediately take into consideration whether they would need to leave their country if they married this man who just said Hello. They'll just look at your photo and profile and if they like what they see, they'll at least say Hello back.

Being from the US, or another foreign country will be an advantage with some women, who'll find you exotic, and a disadvantage with others, who have a bad view of foreigners. Overall it balances out.

Okay, I'm seeing TG getting much better at rationalizing his relationship and others with no experience who desperately want to believe jumping in with their agreement.  All of these idealistic ideas and citing of the rare exceptions just do not reflect the reality of what the true odds are.

TG is new in his large gap marriage after spending years and umpteen dollars seeking such.  As he has said, he could have had those who were not so young or not so physically attractive, but the bottom line is he held out for a 20 something who was willing to accept him for what he had to offer.  He found a compatible relationship.  His goal in finding a wife is obvious from his previous posts.  Her goal was to find someone who could facilitate her goal of an education and career in the US.  Does anyone believe that she would have married him if he could not have been able to provide her with this?

Once she has achieved her goals and no longer needs him for this, only then will we know exactly what the relationship is based on.  The not so distant need to care for him and its conflict with her goals will truly test the relationship.  This is truly a relationship with a predefined shelf life.

Those of you who are seeking the truth pay attention to the statistics and those of us who have enough time in a similar relationship to really know what the issues are.

My hat is off to Gator who is in just such a relationship but has not dismissed the issues but has freely acknowledged them and recognized that he, also, is early in his relationship and has reserved judgement until such a time as he has actually experienced them.  Based on his realistic approach, I see him as having a much better chance of beating the odds.

You want to cite me one recent example of a successful, longterm large age gap relationship?  In return I can cite you 100 or more that were not successful.  Again, I ask, what makes you so unique or special that you can beat the 100 to 1 odds?

If you want to go into such a relationship with open eyes, knowing the odds, I have no problem with that.  But if you choose to put the blinders on or trust in the advice of those who have no validation for giving such advice, I'll speak up.

What frustrates me about TG is that he misleads newbies as part of his agenda of rationalizing his own actions.

[JR]

Remember: there are NO ABSOLUTES. There are however, minefields. If you choose to walk into one be prepared to walk softly with your eyes open or to lose a leg and a lot of blood.

To me a great age disparity is not the end of your beginning. What it is, is a "Risk Multiplier." You must understand that the chances of success "Until death do you part" is inversely related to how many risk multipliers you add to your personal mixture. Add too many and it'll blow up in your face.

[Faux Pas]

Jolly

This thread is more confusing than the other one.

[ambach123]

What are these numbers, 5, 6 and so on?

[viking]

A scale for beauty. A 10 being very beautiful.

[I/O]

JR: Complex posts are similar to Smokinhotkova profiles. Most guys go cross eyed reading and just flip to the photo pages.

Frankly I think the debate (Not the subject) of age gap is over worked. Keep it simple. Do you love her or are you in love with the idea of her? If you really drill down on those two things you'll get fairly close to the bottom of what's happening.

The practicalities of living an age gap relationship are another matter. Some (On both sides) can overcome the hurdles and some can't.

[ambach123]

Beauty seen is in the eyes of beholder. I don't know how you can quantify beauty.
More appropriate would be the age of the RW, and her weight.

RW over the age of 30 tend to gain weight, more so than AW. Few men like overweight women.

Youth and beauty is a depreciating commodity for women; it depreciates very fast after 30 and they know it.

I guess very few men here seek women over 30; at least from what I read. They are all looking for Hotkovas in their twenties.  Of course the Hotkovas know their market value very well. Once they cross 30, gain a few pounds, is age still a factor? For whom, and why?

For under 30 the classification may be arbitrary, as someone may like a petite brunette, and someone may like a tall blonde.

A case in point, the former Governor of New York, caught with a call girl, specifically asked for a  " petit brunette". That was 10 for him. For me she would be 5.

I like tall blondes, for Gov. Spitzer that may be a 5.

[BrightDawn]

(( I just posted this on the other thread but have moved it here ))

I will stand by my statement that I think age gap is unimportant but I think most people will be happier marrying someone close to their own age.  I would not suggest or recommend that someone persue an age gap relationship.  Most are going to do what they want anyway no matter what any of us say.

I'm just wondering why anyone would go half-way around the world to marry someone their own age or close to their own age?

I'm pretty new to the board. I've read quite a lot of discussion on age-gap relationships and find the reasoning of many posters to be sound as to the varied risks of such relationships. But seriously, I can date all the 50-somethings I want here in the USA. There is no shortage what-so-ever of 45+ women available here in the USA looking for men their own age or a few years older.

Unfortunately for me, I don't find the majority of these women to be physically attractive (majority is really an understatement - it runs about 98%). The same is true of FSU 50+ yr old women that contact me on singles.ru. I find very little difference between the women of the same age appearance-wise in the US and FSU.

Is it the difference in "values" between AW and RW that make the difference? I find this somewhat unconvincing. I've seen a definite difference in emphasis on home/family over career in RW vs AW. It doesn't seem to be "PR". But what 40+ yr old woman is worrying about raising a family? They either have one or they don't. Most older AW have grown kids, they're at a stage in life where they are ready to hmmm, how to characterize it... "enjoy life" now that they've raised their family, play with the grand-kids, travel, and such. And many older AW are very family oriented - involved in their grown children's lives in various ways. It's just not "your family".

I've seen the concept proffered that an AM can "up-grade" over what he can expect to find in his selection of AW. Just don't try to upgrade too much is the advice I see being given by many. I'm going to take heat from you guys. No doubt about it. I've read enough posts to see that So feel free. Here I go:

No relationships are ever guaranteed to succeed no matter the age. Similar age means something to be sure in terms of life experience.  Large age-gaps for sure are going to add their own difficulties. I don't argue with that. What about if you find late 20-somethings to be a lot more fun and to your liking - phase-wise (energy, vibrance, opportunity seeking, etc.), not just physically attractive-wise? Grow up? Face it, you're an old fart, that's life? Just trying to reclaim your lost youth?

Why can't I? Cause you're old that's why? Submit bud. Grrr, I'm not ready to submit.

I'm not looking to be a playboy. I have no desire to be a sex tourist. I do want a younger wife. I've seen a fair bit of talk in this thread of how a 30 yr old FSU woman would only go with an older man because of money. I think you discount the factors at play. Someone earlier in this thread implied the shortage of men in the FSU is a myth perpetrated by agencies. This is not a myth if you qualify that as "eligible" men. If these women could find suitable RM to marry they would. That they can't drives them to seek men abroad. And to older men. Now if their desire is to find a good husband as opposed to gold-digging or reaching the land of opportunity (heh, yeah, I'll refrain from talking about the economy here) then why shouldn't they? Cause they'll be trading up after a X years? I think selecting the right person plays a far more important role in the "odds". That applies everywhere, not just to AM/RW marriages.

Saying that women value physical attributes the same as a man does is BS. Men and women are very different in this regard. Sure a woman would like to have a good looking man, but this is not the deciding factor. Nor, is it mine. No air-head 10's need apply. But, in general, men rank attractiveness much higher on the list than women rank it. I think it's genetic (maybe cultural, but it's clear there is a difference, whatever the source.)

I think TG is partially right, "most are going to do what they want no matter what any of us say". I think the experience and advice of others is quite useful. It educates. I still intend to pursue my 30-something yr old, but I do it with a far better understanding of what I'm getting myself into. And, I hope, as a result, will be able to better my odds of success. Understanding the downside up front can potentially turn likely disaster into possible success. Sure, I'd like to have the girl I use as an avatar, she's only 23 and I know better than to think that's gonna happen - well, I keep telling myself I know better... I do have my delusional days from time to time. Fortunately there are 30-somethings that are just as beautiful.

Look ahead 20 yrs... 73 vs 50, yeah, I see that. Are you saying she doesn't? I suppose the argument is: Sure she does, she just puts it out of her mind or she's not truly capable of understanding what that will be like... I dunno, you think? Or, really it's: ha, she's gonna dump your ass at 60 while she's got the chance. Maybe so. But then who's to say that 50 yr old you marry won't be doing the same when she's 57 (for all the other reasons relationships don't work out aside from age)? You either find the right person or you don't. The argument I guess is that it's easier to find Ms Right if she's closer to your own age. Well, so far, that hasn't proven to be true for me.

Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts.

Another newcomer looking to be that 1 in 100

 ((Dons fire retardant gear))

FYI for those that like to know the particulars: I'm 53. Been married, have kids. Self-employed. Not rich. Not poor. Never been to FSU; I'm going in about 2 weeks if the planets properly align. Oh yes, I forgot the most important: I don't look my age! hahaha (hoists foam flame suppressor canister on back and grins)

Thank you all for sharing your experiences on this board. I can't tell you how helpful it has been to this point.

[ambach123]

I have a friend, an Irish American, decent looking guy, he is 37 years old, he has been on EM for two years. The women there flock to him.

Every two months he picks one of them and spends one week banging them.  He has no intention of every marrying any of them, " I am not going to marry one of these bimbos, what marry one, and support her? You think I am crazy? When I am ready to marry, there are plenty of women here with jobs" those were his exact words.

The RW don't seem to realize it, an AM who goes half way around the world, and if there is not much age difference, marriage is not he is looking for. He can find it in his own country, he does not need to wed a stranger whom he will have to support for a long time.

Age difference is why most men go there at least for marriage, (others go for other reasons as my friend).

[BrightDawn]

Sheesh JR, you made a mess of that 1st post! But I'm glad you started the thread, much to the groans of the those that have hashed this to death.  

I've been told by some late 20's friends that I could date younger women here in the USA. I'm sure that's true to a certain extent. But the fact of the matter is the situation is different here vs FSU. Due to cultural differences aforementioned... a 30 yr old is "over the hill" over there. Why? Because there are fewer "eligible" men in the FSU and those that are want the younger ones just like AM do. If this wasn't the case RM would be marrying the 30+ women.

In the USA, there is no such imbalance. An older man trying to date 20-somethings or women in their early 30's is going up against stiff competition from younger males. Women have choices here. Can an older guy get a 20-something here, sure. Just last week-end a 40 yr old guy I know brought his 24 yr old GF over. Was she a 10, no, but she's a 7+ ballerina. Will she marry the guy, who knows. He's not the marrying type from what I know about him. Does she want the relationship, yes - more than he does from what I could tell. Is he rich - nope. Good-looking, not particularly. Must be his personality.

But that example is not the norm here in the USA. I'm not a bad looking guy. I'm smart, intelligent, funny... yadda yadda yadda. Do 30-somethings reply to my interest on dating sites? No. Not so far. Do any ever contact me? No. Who does contact me. 50 - 60 yr old women. Occasionally a 40+. Have any of them been attractive? Yes, 2. Was I interested in them, no. Other factors were a no go.

I don't know about RW putting on weight when they hit 30. I'm sure many do. But I can tell you the US of A is chock-full of overweight women. And not just 30+ women. They take "a few extra pounds" quite liberally as a designation. I suppose that's fair seeing as "normal" is a step up from that in the classification, and fat is the norm here. Overweight doesn't cut it for me. Making it even more difficult to find someone I'm attracted to.

When you want go fishing, it's a good idea to find out where the fish are and concentrate your efforts where you have a better chance of catching fish. That's all that's happening here. If there were more eligible women than men in the USA, AM would be staying home. I don't think the odds of a successful marriage would be any better considering only the age-gap issue. The age-gap issues would be identical with an AW as it is with a RW.

Beat me up if you will, but I think in the main, men go to the FSU to find younger more attractive mates. I think if cost (time & money) was not such an obstacle, you'd find a lot more 25-35 yr old men going over there and evening out the imbalance and making it impossible for older men to compete for these women.

Is it wise to marry a much younger woman? General consensus here would seem to be no. But why then did you go? If you're 45 and want to marry a 40 yr old, there's ample opportunity right here. Is it just to get a prettier 40 yr old? You still have the cultural/relocation issues to overcome. Why take the risk?

The practicalities of living an age gap relationship are another matter. Some (On both sides) can overcome the hurdles and some can't.

You could just as well say: The practicalities of living an age gap relationship are another matter. Some (On both sides) can overcome the hurdles and some can't.

[Boethius]

Saying that women value physical attributes the same as a man does is BS. Men and women are very different in this regard. Sure a woman would like to have a good looking man, but this is not the deciding factor. Nor, is it mine. No air-head 10's need apply. But, in general, men rank attractiveness much higher on the list than women rank it. I think it's genetic (maybe cultural, but it's clear there is a difference, whatever the source.)

Yet another so called "expert" on what women think.

Women value physical attributes just as much as men do.  But women are far more realistic in what they can attract than men are.  You don't see AM going to Sweden or France, or even Hungary or Croatia, to attract much younger women.  If Russia and Ukraine were economically stable, similar to Western European countries, the "market" would move to the Phillipines, where all those "family oriented" Catholic girls reside.

Believe me, no 20 or even 30 year old hottie, no matter where she is from, is pining for a 53 year old man, unless he is rich or has a desirable passport. A woman will settle for such a man.  Can she love him?  Sure.  But it isn't the default, even if you wish to believe it is.

[remiel6]

you have to be careful of grand sweeping statements here. I would never pretend to know why most women or men do anything. As to Am's friend. I find such behavior deplorable at its worst and dishonest at its best. If such a man has such an easy time with women why is he traveling half way around the world for sex. Such things, not that they don't exist sounds like an awful lot of men trying to inflate their own ego and I tend to believe less then 10% percent of it, as in my experience the most sexually active people tend to not wear their promiscuity on their sleeve like a badge of honor. The rest are 30% slight fabrications or 20% great fabrications, and 50% out and out lies. First of all what exactly qualifies as a large age gap. My parents are 8 years apart. By most American standards that is a very large gap, even for their age. It is larger than anyone else I have personally known other than perhaps my fiance, the Ukrainian girl, whose father passed away. My parents have been married for 40 years. I am also just about the only person I know whose parents did not divorce. I would take my parents marriage and its age gap over any other I've ever seen. Success depends on the people in the relationship not the ages they are. If a girl is immature it does not matter if she is with a 43 year old man or a 23 year old man she will be just as immature with both. The only difference is the 43 year old should have known better, especially if he has been married before. I got engaged and traveled to Russia because I was looking for someone with a particular personality and I would have tried France, Sweden, Zimbabwe or Antarctica if she were there. Yes the age gap with my fiance is larger then 8 years, but uh.... she wrote me first. Also two immature people together in the relationship is just as bad as one immature person and one person who knows better.

[ambach123]

To counter the argument that " only women from economically disadvantaged countries marry older WM". If you look at the Aisan Board, there are significant number of women from South Korea who married older men and are here.
South Korea is not " economically disadvantaged " by any means.

A quick check of Korean Cupid reveals lieterallly tens of thousands of women looking for WM husbands.
They marry older men for financial security, women have been doing it for thousands of years.

[BrightDawn]

Yet another so called "expert" on what women think.

I don't claim to be an expert.  I think you can find experts in human mating behavior that say same. I'm certainly not one. If you prefer, consider it my "opinion".

Women value physical attributes just as much as men do.  But women are far more realistic in what they can attract than men are.  You don't see AM going to Sweden or France, or even Hungary or Croatia, to attract much younger women.  If Russia and Ukraine were economically stable, similar to Western European countries, the "market" would move to the Phillipines, where all those "family oriented" Catholic girls reside.

You're really supporting what I am saying. If they valued it "just as much" then they would not compromise on this point like they do. They value other factors more. An ugly or 200 pound 21 yr old female billionaire couldn't get me to marry her. Well, hmmm. not long term at least... ha. Shoe on the other foot, interesting

I've seen many attractive women marry physically unattractive guys. It's quite clear women value looks less than other attributes as opposed to men. If not, gold-diggers would not exist. Nor would these women from the FSU marry older men, they'd marry that handsome, but stupid, abusive, jobless guy down the block that's the same age as her that makes her heart go pitter patter. Clearly there are other value assessments at play. You can deny it all you want, but all you need do is take a look around you on the streets of any US (or western) city.

Believe me, no 20 or even 30 year old hottie, no matter where she is from, is pining for a 53 year old man, unless he is rich or has a desirable passport. A woman will settle for such a man.  Can she love him?  Sure.  But it isn't the default, even if you wish to believe it is.

I don't wish to believe it is "the default". I didn't say that at all. I'm quite aware that if all things were equal she'd marry a guy near her own age. But all things are not equal. Many men settle in one way or another. As you attribute to women - men can also be realistic. I don't aspire to marry Charlise Theron. Even though if she got to know me she might find me to be quite a good husband.

"Can she love him? Sure" --- nuf said. That's all I can ask. Well, that the love keeps on til death do us part would also be handy, but no one can guarantee that, except her and my understanding of how to maintain it. This is the difficult bit for any relationship.

[Misha]

Women value physical attributes just as much as men do.  But women are far more realistic in what they can attract than men are. 

I agree with the first but I would say that the second does not apply to all women. My wife went to Russia this spring and of course a number of women asked her to find them a "groom" but they would invariably add that they want someone young and attractive  :evil: Of course, they wanted the type of man who would be invariably the least likely interested in dating, let alone marrying, a woman from another country, and were interested in men whether in Russia or elsewhere that they could not realistically attract in my opinion.

[ambach123]

To answer Remie, that my friend's pursuits are hyperbole,  I think not.

On EM and elsewhere, the RW in their twenties, and there are a gazillion of them, think that a WM with not much age difference is a God's gift to them. Almost any young man with a good profile can pick as many as he wants for sex or otherwise. The AW would not accept this from a man here.
RW don't understand this, some understand it and still accpet it.

Whether this behaviour is deplorable, I don't make value judgments. I don't do it, but I don't chastize others for doing it, unless they are breaking the law. As far as I know, no law is being broken.
The long and short of it is, that when there is not much age difference, most often the man  is there to satisfy his desires, and marriage is not one of them. Almost any young WM with a decent profile, and nice photos can serially have as many RW for a week or ten days as he wants. and many do exactly that. The cost about $3K for the trip, apartment etc. Most RW don't get it, they are enamoured by " cosy " life in USA with a young and handsome American. There is some ocean front property in Arizona they should look at.

[Misha]

the US of A is chock-full of overweight women

Based on the stats that I have seen, there are even more overweight men in the United States than women  :evil:

[BrightDawn]

I have a friend, an Irish American, decent looking guy, he is 37 years old, he has been on EM for two years. The women there flock to him.

Every two months he picks one of them and spends one week banging them.  He has no intention of every marrying any of them, " I am not going to marry one of these bimbos, what marry one, and support her? You think I am crazy? When I am ready to marry, there are plenty of women here with jobs" those were his exact words.

The RW don't seem to realize it, an AM who goes half way around the world, and if there is not much age difference, marriage is not he is looking for. He can find it in his own country, he does not need to wed a stranger whom he will have to support for a long time.

Age difference is why most men go there at least for marriage, (others go for other reasons as my friend).

Nice to know the friends you keep. I think your friend is a scumbag. Nor do I think that a guy 37 years old would go only for such base reasons. Sadly there are *snip*s everywhere.

You don't make value judgements?

Law... what about decent behavior?

Guys do it in the USA too. They take advantage of less desirable women for their own selfish desires. The fact that no government's "law" is being broken doesn't make it ok to lie or make the guy any less of a creep.

And AW do fall prey to this kind of behavior. Plenty of guys are "players".

[BrightDawn]

Based on the stats that I have seen, there are even more overweight men in the United States than women  :evil:

Heh, quite true. I don't happen to be one of them. Some women like a big guy, some guys like big women. It's a matter of personal preference. Mine just don't run in that direction.

[Misha]

Heh, quite true. I don't happen to be one of them.

In that case, your odds of finding a woman in the United States who is not overweight would be much greater than a similar woman trying to find a man who was not overweight.

[Daveman]

(( I just posted this on the other thread but have moved it here ))

I'm just wondering why anyone would go half-way around the world to marry someone their own age or close to their own age?

The eyes, the accent, attention to detail -- and looking for something very very special that I probably could have found here had I not been forever corrupted by the eyes, accents, and attention to detail...  

the Age Gap Shelf Life Theory does have a ton of merit for a variety of reasons - all of which have been discussed ad nauseum.  My guess, and it's ONLY a guess would be something like this

gaps of 5 years or less is just normal
6-10 may increase risk slightly but not a lot
11-15 definitely increases risk by probably a factor of 25 or so for the marriage reaching the 10 year mark.
16-20 risk factor increase of about 50
20+ risk factor increase of about 75+.  

(These numbers are pulled cited directly from the interior popka lining with no relevance to anything other than my own thought process and observations).


But, I'm not really attracted to children anyway.. I'm consistently hitting about 12 years of difference, this time it wound up being 11... so much for my new ideology of dating only women within 8 years...

As mentioned in a thousand places here... it;s more than a pretty face matched with your wallet...  common interests, common goals, similar sense of humor (perhaps should be numero uno), AND a good mutual attraction/chemistry goes a long way to lower risks...

Someone, I think it was GQ, mentioned, paraphrased, seeing the WOMAN rather than the Russian/Ukrainian... I would say this applies in every facet... focus on/see the woman first... everything else is secondary.  After all, this is just a boy and a girl falling in love.  If it's more complicated than that for either of you -- that's where you're gonna have the problems.

[Turboguy]

Well, in a perfect world since women tend to outlive men we should all be looking for an older woman but how many of us do.

In a perfect world since young beautiful women at least in America tend to rely on thier looks a bit, get used to men falling all over them and never develop their personalities as much and over weight women tend to need to rely on their inner qualities and are often more pleasant, more accomodating and often treat a man well since they appreciate a good man then we should all be looking for overweight women but again how many of us do.  

I believe it was KenC who responded to the question of why we look for young women with: "Because we can"

Personally I don't buy the oft quoted theory that older men looking for younger women are out to reclaim thier lost youth.   The much older men that I ran into during my travels who where hunting for a much younger woman we nearly always wanting the children they never had before in their life.   Personally if they acheive their goal I think they might find parenting at an older age much more daunting than they realize but many of the older men looking for a very young wife did make that statement to me.  The other theory I don't buy is that it is totally based on the guy being rich.  I am not saying it doesn't help but I have a feeling that someone who was rich, fat and nasty would not end up marrying a hot, beautiful women from the FSU.   I don't see the younger women who are willing to accept an older guy as "selling themselves for a quick buck"

My guess is that most of the men who look for a wife from overseas are looking there because they think they can find a better wife there than here.   For some that may be beauty or youth, for others that may just be one of the factors they look for.    

I think for many of us, both men and women we tend to seek what we think we have a chance of finding and living happily with.  Most women probably do prefer a man closer to thier own age but in looking for a mate from overseas are more flexable and willing to bend a little more in their search to have a possibility of success.  Still most women don't seek a big age gap.  There are some women who don't consider age and age difference important both here and there but they are less common.   An older man can often offer more security and the likelyhood of more fidelity and that does appeal to some women.  

Usually those who are the most vocal in these age gap threads are those with little first hand knowlege and little reason to really care one way or the other.   I do think that when someone has their mind made up that they are looking for a younger woman they are not going to listen anyway and the reality is they can find that without all that much difficulty.  

I don't necessarily agree that RW over 30 can't be beautiful.   Yes, some put on weight but if someone is just looking for beauty there are some beautiful older women out there.   Yes, sometimes the beauty of an older woman's profile depends on the ability of the photographer to use PhotoShop but I have seen some really attractive older women.   Personally I think inner beauty is important.   You can have the most beautiful wife in the world who can make the most miserable wife you could have.   I think compatability is a key issue and for many they will find that with someone closer to thier own age.   People lives, lifestyles and needs needs to intermesh in a meaningful way.   Many times that requires being at the same stage of live but sometimes it can work well with two people at different stages who fit each other well.  I think Gator and his wife are a good example of that and I think the same applies to me and VWRW.  We might be at different life stages but our relationship works really well.  

I think the sum of it all is that it happens, it is going to happen.  Sometimes it may work well, many times it may not.  It is always going to be controversial because it isn't the norm.   What is a small age gap for AM-RW relationships is usually something that would be a big one in AM-AW relationships.  We can talk all we want, we can point out the potential for failure and it is still going to happen and in many cases dispite all the warnings the couple will find happiness together or end up being another train wreck that lets us say "We told you so"

[remiel6]

I am also 37, and yes received a lot of emails from women. I don't know if I'm attractive or not. I don't really care at this point in time. My ego is not large enough that I have to spend time contemplating if I'm a hot AM or not. Also, my ego is not vain enough that I have to build it up by trying to "Bang" with every girl I can find. At 37 I would suggest such a person needs to look in the mirror, not because he's 37, but because you reap what you sew. If you spend your life misleading people so you can get their pants off your going to have a terrible old age. Family, friends, love, affection, someone to talk to, these things are important in life. In my own situation it did not matter to me that the girl was 23, or 43. She was the right one. She had the personality I was looking for. she happened to be younger than me, she happened to be from the Ukraine, where based on my past experience I thought there might be a good chance I would find her and low and behold I did. I had my wild ways when I was younger, trust me, but at some point in time we have to start looking for more out of life then the next girl to bang. I can find women to have sex with without spending 3k and traveling 6000 miles. I wasn't just looking for a sex partner. I was looking for a wife. I have never been married and I really hope there is a difference between the two.

[Ade]

Just to throw something out there; contrary to popular belief, a younger woman will make an older man feel older not younger.

Oh yeah, and Ambach's friend is a pure sex tourist and douche bag, the fact that Ambach isn't critical of him says it all really. You can tell a lot about someone by the company they keep...

[KenC]

I believe it was KenC who responded to the question of why we look for young women with: "Because we can"

Yes, Turbo, it was me that said this.  And that is one of the biggest problems with this process.    Let's face facts for once.
 Everyone (both women and men) want the "best" possible partner.  However one defines "best" varies from person to person.  Everyone's priorities are different.  I will not pretend to be an expert on women's priorities, but I would venture to guess that stability and security would be very high on their list.  Older men provide this better than younger men.  Do they trade off youth for these?  Happens all the time.  How much are they willing to trade off depends upon how much stability and security is offered vs how old and unappealing the older man is.  Factored in here is that older men with younger women is a much more acceptable fact of life in the fsu than here.  Bosses that hire secretary's with benefits or successful (rich) older men with young mistresses are just more acceptable there than here for example.

Now men also have their own sliding scale of trade offs.  It really is no different than the women's in the fact that they are juggling "risk" vs "reward."  How young and how beautiful they can go with a reasonable chance at having a successful relationship is the question.

A man in his mid 40's would be tickled pink to be dating a woman in her mid 30's here.  "Died and gone to heaven" to date a woman in their late 20's!  When that same man enters into this process and all of a sudden young beautiful hardbodies of their early 20's start throwing themselves at him, he is hard pressed NOT to pay attention.  Let the justifications begin!

For sure these young hotties will rock your world in the sack and won't you be the envy of all your buds at the country club?  Let us not forget the side benefit of showing the ol ex wifey/ex gf just how hot a woman you REALLY can attract.  

But there IS a price to paid for this.  How long will your young hottie stay with you?  The 2 year minimum to get her permenant GC?  Or might she pull the DV route to dump your saggy azz earlier?  Or if there is some basis for a true relationship (rare, but happens) will she stick with you until it becomes inconvenient down the road?  Step right up, big boy, how much you willing to gamble?  
KenC