WHAT IS MEANT BY "FRIENDSHIP" IN USA?

[Jooky]

Most of them want to be integrated when local people want them assimilated.

Having grown up around immigrants in the US, for me, this statment takes the prize for most ridiculous statement in this thread so far.

American 'culture' is a constantly changing integration of other cultures. Much more so than culture in European countries that retain distinct customs across tight invisible borders. You, being 'highly cultured' should already know this.

How are you being forced to assimilate to Canadian culture? Are you prevented from following your own customs either in public or in your own home?

Do you think locals should change and adapt their customs or lifestyle to accomodate you?

Do you feel people in other countries (in particular Russia and France) do more to integrate immigrants than the US or Canada? If so, how?

[Gator]

This whole thread is finally focusing about something important for emigrant: Most of them want to be integrated when local people want them assimilated.

Stimulating observation, yet I doubt that the fact Ludmila is "dissimilar" is the main reason she has not found American friends.  Americans appreciate warm, lively, outgoing  personalities, a trait that I do not associate with most RW I met.  Could that be a reason among many?

Assuming you mean cultural assimilation, this has been the way of America for better or worse for 200+ years.  Nevertheless, some immigrant groups have been able to retain the best of their culture including language, e. g., the so called Pennsylvania Dutch (actually Germans).  

When undergoing assimilation, some synthesis will naturally occur such as to alter the existing "establishment."  In the case of my family, I believe the assimilated components have enhanced the whole.   They certainly have changed much.

Recently the subject of assimilation is fomenting much spirited debate.    We have models and examples in Canada and Europe to study.

[Jooky]

Assuming you mean cultural assimilation, this has been the way of America for better or worse for 200+ years.

Are you saying that American culture has remained the same for 200+ years, resisting the cultural influence of immigrants, forcing them to assimilate?

Somos del mismo pais?

[ECOCKS]

This is startling only in the apparent wonderment of the people reacting to it.

America has 250+ years of history illustrating the ability of our ever-evolving cultural system to absorb large groups of immigrants (legal or illegal) and assimilate them and certain of their cultural aspects into the cultural stew (aka the "melting pot") which makes up America. It affects our language, pronunciation, foods, music, fashions, furnishings and even our political system.

The result is evident. Demographic diversity, ethnic communities and relative freedom coupled with worldwide impact in finance, technology, politics, language, food, hmmm, all those same things we mentioned above, go figure.

There are instances of ethnic groups building somewhat insular societies within our boundaries but, yes, gradually they are being assimilated into "American culture" even as they contribute their own new components of it. While the Amish horse and buggy towns may fade away, I will still expect that 500 years from now, there will be a store somewhere marketing Amish furniture and quilts.

For those who have been to the Pennsylvania Dutch country, you can find smeerkasse (sp?) on many restaurant menus. I first saw that item in a restaurant in Chattanooga, TN though. New Yorkers love their sauerkraut on street vendor hotdogs and brats are sold in nearly every mainstream grocery store. My wife recently discovered vegetarian Indian dishes in the frozen food section of those same stores. There is a town about 140 miles north of me where an archaeology excavation yields Chinese tools and anthropologists have identified a Chinese graveyard, all under the protection of the Department of the Interior as National Historic sites. Those are merely single incidences on a long list of groups which have come here, assimilated/integrated and flourished.

One reason it is so difficult to identify American culture is because of this histroy of inclusion and assimilation. It works and we progress along.

[Jooky]

and assimilate them

Assimilation forces people to conform. The 'melting pot' of America that you described well is an integration.

[GQBlues]

Well on the subject of integration and melting pots, a 13-square mile area in southeast Los Angeles commonly known as Artesia, zip code 90706, is home to a highly diversified community of immigrants. There are officially 38 languages spoken within the boundaries of this community. 39 if you count English. You cross the 710 freeway and add the small area pocket postal zip code 90805 area, then the count goes up to 40.

It used to be 41, but the entire community got together and chased the French out.  

According to the Census bureau, 53 languages are spoken in the 30 schools of the ABC Unified School District which added the areas of Cerritos, Hawaiian Gardens, Lakewood and Norwalk.

Unfortunately, legislation fell through in the attempt to recognize 'Ebonics' as an official language or that count would've been 54. 56 had they counted pidgen and pig latin.   :evil:

So resistance is futile and so it goes...

[ECOCKS]

Assimilation is a process, nothing is necessarily "forced" about it.

Taken from dictonary.com

- Sociology. the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological amalgamation.

[Daveman]

Bahhhhh, 'friendship' is a gay euphemism! Real men don't need friends... only golf, fishin' and drinkin' buddies.

[Jooky]

Assimilation is a process, nothing is necessarily "forced" about it.

Yes, I stand corrected, but in this case Docetae is drawing a distinction between assimilation as bringing people to conform to a culture (also in the dictionary) and integration as a merging of cultures.

[ECOCKS]

Nothing was intended to rebuke or slap you Jooky, only clarify. Typed words are so flat, much better to say something while looking someone in the eye and smiling over a beer or coffee-cup.

Many people chose to assimilate into new cultures and, if anything, "integration" has an often violent connotation due to the racial issues encountered in American education, business and society. For me, whenever I think about integration, one of the first images involves National Guard units, police dogs and spittle-flecked jowls wagging about various things which won't be tolerated, yessirreee!

Some people will always look to make trouble out of fairly innocent comments, especally in online environments.

It's a shame that more and more people are choosing to talk about each other than the topic presented or question being asked.  

[Boethius]

Respect for other people's (bizarre) beliefs has nothing to do with open-mindedness; once again, people who try to rely primarily on facts can respect all they wish but will not "open their mind" to something wholly unsubstantiated, as those espousing those beliefs try to push them to.

I disagree.  Open mindedness is not merely exposing yourself to other ideas;  It is also about realizing not everyone thinks as you do, and respecting that.  

What you may think is "bizarre" may very well be the truth.  Six hundred years ago, the heliocentric concept of the universe was viewed as "bizarre".   Three hundred years ago, only religious zealots believed rocks "fell from the sky".  All the great scientists of the age claimed this "bizarre".  Antoine Lavoisier even examined such a specimen and concluded, with scientifc finality, that it was merely an ordinary rock struck by lightning.  It was not until much later that science recognized the concept of meteorites.  One hundred years ago, people mocked Alfred Wegener's theory of continental drift as "bizarre".

Yes my stance on death panels was emotional, as a result of the clearly logical comparison I've drawn between QALY and the principles of eugenics, and between deciding the value of peoples' lives from the point of their usefulness for society and fascism.  My opponent seemed to shy away from this obvious fact - afraid of the emotions it entailed, perhaps?    

Had your stance been logical, you would have taken the time to actually read the legislation, rather than merely absorbing wingnut talking point memos.  I actually read the bill, as I wanted to know what all the hoopla was about.  All the provision (section 1233) did was cover when a physician or specified medical professional would be paid for providing end of life counselling services, what services would be covered, and at what intervals (every 5 years).  The legal documentation emanating from such counselling is known as an "advanced directive" or a "living will".  Such documents have existed in numerous jurisdictions for decades.  Yet, apparently (and perhaps, miraculously), notwithstanding the decades long existence of such counselling services and legal directives, nobody has yet been put to death against his/her will.

I would hazard a guess your opponent did not respond not because of emotion, but because he, too, has read town hall talking point memos.


To Ludmila, if you are still here - I agree with Misha's comments, and Gator's.  

I have a number of American clients, mostly from California, Washington, Texas, and Oklahoma.  I find they are all very open and warm.  

I don't know how old you are, but personally, I got over discussing Dostoevsky and Tolstoy (and Flaubert, Shakespeare, Faulkner, TS Eliot, etc.) in my twenties, when I was studying and surrounded by other students.  These days, I may get one of my kids to read some of these works, and ask them what they got out of it, but really, it's not something most adults discuss at length.   If these are interests of yours, it may be more suitable to discuss them on internet forums.

[CallMeSasha]

Why americans can not distance themselves from their views . I can ask the same question here

Misha's reply is absolutely spot on

[CallMeSasha]

What ever happened to the old adage - when in Rome...? Do this not apply to Russian women?

exactly!

[CallMeSasha]

Having grown up around immigrants in the US, for me, this statment takes the prize for most ridiculous statement in this thread so far.

Do you feel people in other countries (in particular Russia and France) do more to integrate immigrants than the US or Canada? If so, how?

that statement is a close second to the comment about rugby being the sport of europe - obviously the knowledge of the little known phenomenon of "football" aka "soccer" hasn't reached north america yet 

oh yes and french immigrants, hmmmm, the north african communities are a happy bunch there aren't they?

[CallMeSasha]

just to reverse the direction of thread (sorry!)

"Western spirit is very rationalized, regulated and organized. Western spirit is " bearing the ''press", the "chains" of civilization.
Russian spirit is free, always remains irrational, unorganized and unregulated. Russian spirit does not observe Western formula/ patterns of life.

i quoted this to my wife, and asked if she agreed. her response was very defensive and she replied "i'm sure WE can find faults in YOUR culture too".

it seems the russians have a "us versus them" mentality.

even when i told her it was a quote from a russian philosopher, she still took offense and viewed what i said as a critism 

[Turboguy]

that statement is a close second to the comment about rugby being the sport of europe - obviously the knowledge of the little known phenomenon of "football" aka "soccer" hasn't reached north america yet 

Soccer is alive and doing well in North America and probably the hottest growth sport here.  I realize in Europe people will kill each other over "football".   To me, I would rather watch clothes spinning in a clothes drier.   I had a friend take me to a pro soccer game and would have loved to have had my Blackberry with me so I could have read RWD to keep awake. 

[Shadow]

Soccer is alive and doing well in North America and probably the hottest growth sport here.  I realize in Europe people will kill each other over "football".   To me, I would rather watch clothes spinning in a clothes drier.   I had a friend take me to a pro soccer game and would have loved to have had my Blackberry with me so I could have read RWD to keep awake. 

Yeah better watch cricket.  :evil:

[CallMeSasha]

Yeah better watch cricket.  :evil:

i bet you didn't know the Dutch beat the English in a competitive international this summer? nobody knows, nobody cares.

BTW TG, i do know about MLS (my comments were a little tongue-in-cheek  ) - after all you have our most famous export, David Beckham

[SMS60]

I disagree.  Open mindedness is not merely exposing yourself to other ideas;  It is also about realizing not everyone thinks as you do, and respecting that.

You are correct. Its too bad it does not stay at this level. It progresses to a point where people expect action on their ideas or thinking. They want to impose them on other people. Not just themselves.

A crude example.

I could care less what Joe Shmo is doing with his life in any part of the country. He can do what ever he pleases. He can twirl fire batons in the street as far as Im concerned. But when Joe Shmo comes on my property to take my guns or twirl his baton because he dont like guns or feels I need to learn how to twirl to become more cultured................. this is where the problems start. He is not satisfied with him not owning guns or him just twirling..... he wants everyone to give up their firearms and twirl fire batons.

It always goes this way. I respect Joes thinking but he cant keep it at that. He must act. When he tries to act is when the disrespect occurs.

[docetae]

In Europe, successive politics of emigrations have been a failure, they were asking people to forget their own culture and to be assimilated in the same mold. Add to this that most of migrants are coming from former colonies and you have something highly sensible politically.

From my experience in Canada, it is about community of people. You will see Italian, portuguese, algerian, chinese districts in large cities. It is extremely rare to have emigrant choosing to settle in a small town (probability to find a job is driving the localization).

Here people are integrated. It means that most of us will keep a contact with their original culture and will build their own network based on the same community with other contact "on the edge", by people who are settled since long time.

In most of the case, there will be rare opportunities to build friendship outside the communities.

In the case of one international marriage, the international part is forced to be in contact immediately with a foreign culture. Even if you can adapt yourself quickly, this is a culture shock. Add to this the traditional emigrant adaptation phases (1 - all is new and good, 2 - Why I am here (I forget why I moved) 3 - this is where people decide to go back or to stay - 4 - stabilization  - 5 building bridge with elements of culture we like in each one.) and you get a receipt for disaster if you are not supporting your half.

- Culture in this case means for me all sociologic aspects of life

[Gator]

Docetae, I give you an A+ for your use of community, while assimilation and integrate obscure your point. 

Ecocks accurately explained “assimilation” as the “melting pot”  - assimilate is to make similar, not identical.  Integrate is best defined by thinking of the antonym – segregate.  Integration to Americans focuses on “equality” unless one is a mathematican, which calls to mind the term differentiation.

What this has to do with Ludmila and friendship evades me. 

[Gator]

Ecocks,

I had a girlfriend whose house was on a ridge adjacent to an Amish community spread across the prime farmland.  She knew many of her Amish neighbors and would take me for a walk among them.  Good people.  They just want to be left alone; however, they know how to make money from commerce with the Yankees.  We had an expression that they could buy from a Jew and sell to a Scot and make a profit (or was that for the Quakers?). 

Times are changing.  Many Amish have refrigerators, powered by propane gas.  The Mennonites drive automobiles, with the chrome bumpers painted black.  I thought I saw a cell phone in use.  Still no zippers. 

Did you know that the teenagers are encouraged to sample life among the “outsiders,” yet most choose to return and be baptized.   

[CallMeSasha]

From my experience in Canada, it is about community of people. You will see Italian, portuguese, algerian, chinese districts in large cities. It is extremely rare to have emigrant choosing to settle in a small town (probability to find a job is driving the localization).

Here people are integrated. It means that most of us will keep a contact with their original culture and will build their own network based on the same community with other contact "on the edge", by people who are settled since long time.

In most of the case, there will be rare opportunities to build friendship outside the communities.

maybe i am just being thick here, but.........

if immigrants move to Canada and live in their respective migrant enclaves, keep in contact with their original culture whilst building friends from the same community & find it rare to build friendships from outside their migrant communities, then isn't that the exact opposite of intergration?

maybe he's just explained it in a way i don't understand, anyway *whoosh* 

[Misha]

immigrants move to Canada and live in their respective migrant enclaves, keep in contact with their original culture whilst building friends from the same community & find it rare to build friendships from outside their migrant communities, then isn't that the exact opposite of intergration?

Integration is often something that takes a couple of generations. If you look at Toronto, for example, you will soon discover that few Italians or Italian-Canadians actually live in Toronto's Little Italy neighborhood. The children of the first generation moved out to the suburbs and they were replaced by new immigrants (Vietnamese a while back) and I am sure the kids of these immigrants have move out in turn and have been replaced by the someone else. Sure, you still have a facade in Toronto's "Little Italy" and yes some do return every so often to buy some food to remind themselves of their mothers and grandmothers, but other than than they would be pretty indistinguishable from all others in Toronto.

My wife and I were having this conversation last night. At her school, they are discussing multiculturalism ad Canada's mosaic and so forth. My wife, being the practical woman she is, already feels that her identity is becoming more and more Canadian. Sure she talks with me at home in Russian and she likes preparing Russian food, but she knows that her outlook and culture is quite different from her friends in Russia. She will speak to any future children we may have in Russian, but knows that it will be very unlikely that any grandkids will speak any Russian or that our children will be that close to any form of Russian culture.

[Blues Fairy]

Six hundred years ago, the heliocentric concept of the universe was viewed as "bizarre".   Three hundred years ago, only religious zealots believed rocks "fell from the sky".  All the great scientists of the age claimed this "bizarre".  Antoine Lavoisier even examined such a specimen and concluded, with scientifc finality, that it was merely an ordinary rock struck by lightning.  It was not until much later that science recognized the concept of meteorites.  One hundred years ago, people mocked Alfred Wegener's theory of continental drift as "bizarre".

Which just supports the definition of open-mindedness as willingness to consider new facts and new theories based on them - not all beliefs which may be completely unfounded. 

Had your stance been logical, you would have taken the time to actually read the legislation, rather than merely absorbing wingnut talking point memos.

A very open-minded statement indeed.
Two people may see the same fact either as absolutely normal thing, or as signifying the onslaught of statism and limitation of people's freedom.  I did read the referenced sections and saw what you did not see.  What makes me emotional, Boethius, is not anyone's interpretation of facts, but the premise on which people argue.  My opponent was arguing on the premise that the interests of society were by definition more important than individual rights - and that always pisses me off to no end.  Cultural differences, I guess.