WHAT IS MEANT BY "FRIENDSHIP" IN USA?

[Ludmila]

Thanks , Olenka, I appreciate. I'll certainly take a look.

[Misha]

Russians have a basic NEED to express their spiritual life. Westerners have a strong NEED  in privacy, a need to be closed to others and stay reserved.

Yes, such stereotypes are appealing as they reduce the world to a few cliches. However, what exactly is the "West"? It is not a monolithic culture. It is characterized by cultural differences, religious differences, social differences, generational differences, and of course differences between individuals.

[Jooky]

This whole thread is so full of bizarre generalizations, where do I begin? (Reserved and private 'Westerners' ??? Does that include loud Spaniards who'll strike up conversations in the street or Americans who'll share their private problems with a complete stranger?) ('Western spirit' that's rational and organized? Ever hang out in San Francisco? Russians inclined to communicate? You can hear a pin drop in the Moscow metro during rush hour.)

Ludmilla, it sounds like you really need to find a different circle of 'friends' to associate with, and you'll find the US can be completely opposite of what you're experiencing so far. Discussing politics, religion, spirituality and 'life' is normal where I come from, even amongst acquaintances. Nobody shares their recipes with me.  

Americans come from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures. Surely you can find friends that share your common interests in conversation. Seems to me you are too judgemental, and who wants to enter a deep conversation not to be listened to and respected, but only to be judged?

The same goes for Docetae who in this thread only reinforces the French stereotype of being a pompous a$$.

If to be cultured means:

This is to have a knowledge about other cultures and domains and the ability to build my reflexion, based on this knowledge.

Your knowledge about American culture is clearly lacking, and you don't seem open to expanding your knowledge but rather relegate what you don't know to being 'low' culture. By your own definition it seems you're the one lacking culture.

The situation: you're not making any friends in the US. The solution: quit rationalizing and philosophizing about it as some cultural phenomena. It's bull. Expand your activities to include people who you can get along with. They're out there.

[CallMeSasha]

Part 1

I started chuckling as I scrolled down thinking "All these non-American's responding to a distinctly American question

perhaps here lies the OP's problem ^

it seems to me that you have a "closed mentality" when you think about USA

(other than the context in which the question was asked) is friendship so really so different in america? is it possible that you could have a striking similarity to those cultures of england & australia (think back a few hundred years!)

if americans can't relate to those of similar cultures, it makes me wonder how russian & american cultures could ever intertwine?

[CallMeSasha]

Part 2

Here I need to note, not without pride, that my husband being my soulmate and , hopefully, LOVE FOREVER, has made strides as a westerner in learning the Russian World, so to speak . His baggage today :essential Tolstoy, essential Dostoyevsky, detailed Russian history, scrutiniy of Russian/ European philosophic   works  on topical burning issues. So now, a whole different world has opened itself before him, and he enjoys every minute of our sharing.


For those who find it boring, please, don't bother to read below.

Guys, I just thought it would be interesting for you to glance and  read  a couple of paragraphs from philosophic observations and thoughts on Russia vs Western World of a Russian prominent philosopher of the 19-th c ( honoris causa---an honorary member --  of Theological Faculty, Cambridge University, England . FYI, other Russian honoris causa were Chaikovsky and Turgenyev) :

etc...

this post especially the paragraph about the OP's husband makes me think that the OP wants to shower us all with russian culture.

maybe if you distanced yourself from your views on russian culture & tried to adopt american culture a little more you may find it easier to make friends in USA?

[GoodOlBoy]

..... my husband....has made strides as a westerner in learning the Russian World,....

Interesting. 

At times, it is preferable to hear negative thoughts than meaningless smalltalk about nothing for hours.

OK.  :evil:

His baggage today :essential Tolstoy, essential Dostoyevsky, detailed Russian history, scrutiniy of Russian/ European philosophic   works  on topical burning issues. So now, a whole different world has opened itself before him, and he enjoys every minute of our sharing.

Since these fine pieces of literature have been around for all the years of your husbands life, one can only assume that he has taken this sudden interest because of you.

Congratulations!

Speaking as a man, I sincerely hope that your husband has "immersed" himself into these writings to enrich his own world and not to simply become your "lap dog". 
 

For those who find it boring, please, don't bother to read below.

All right. 


GOB

[Blues Fairy]

No offense intended, but why do you assume you are a logical thinker?  Your posts on "death panels" were emotional rather than rational, and were not even factually correct.    

In my opinion, being open minded means being willing to see another person's perspective.  It doesn't mean your perspective will be revised, but rather, that you respect the views of those whose beliefs differ from your own.

Respect for other people's (bizarre) beliefs has nothing to do with open-mindedness; once again, people who try to rely primarily on facts can respect all they wish but will not "open their mind" to something wholly unsubstantiated, as those espousing those beliefs try to push them to.

Yes my stance on death panels was emotional, as a result of the clearly logical comparison I've drawn between QALY and the principles of eugenics, and between deciding the value of peoples' lives from the point of their usefulness for society and fascism.  My opponent seemed to shy away from this obvious fact - afraid of the emotions it entailed, perhaps?    

[Gator]

Guys, I just thought it would be interesting for you to glance and  read  a couple of paragraphs from philosophic observations and thoughts on Russia vs Western World of a Russian prominent philosopher of the 19-th c:

"19-th c" is the operative phrase.  A lot of water has flowed over the dam since then.

When in Iran in the 1970s my Swedish professor friend (who remains a close friend today) and I were amused by historical accounts of Persian scholars who had encountered some Swedes (Vikings).  The Persians found them crude and dirty, almost barbaric (which was probably true 500 years earlier).

[Misha]

Russians and Westerners NEED AND SEEK  different things in the act of communication.

In rereading this point, I have to say that it would be more correct to say SOME Russians and SOME Westerners need and seek different things in the act of communication. In my fifteen years experience with Russians, I have yet to meet one who wanted to discuss Dostoyevsky in great detail. Most were more than happy to chat and gossip about mundane things: friends, children, family, the latest television shows, daily life and perhaps some politics thrown in. 

His baggage today :essential Tolstoy, essential Dostoyevsky, detailed Russian history, scrutiniy of Russian/ European philosophic   works  on topical burning issues. So now, a whole different world has opened itself before him, and he enjoys every minute of our sharing.

I really, really hope that you don't insist on "sharing" with every American woman you meet what you consider to be the essentials of Russian philosophy, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky. If you do, it might explain why you are finding it a challenge to find friends in the United States. 

[Jazzyclassy]

I agree with Doll and Ludmila it is the same for me I struggle to find any English women as my friends, I do not get the jokes , even though my English is not that bad. They do tend to talk about something which does not interest me. -
"Nails done? Hair done all make up done, whom are you meeting at the disco? Are you dating both guys yet ?"
-
 and so on in that particular style , moreover it wont necessarily be young girls, it could be women in their 30's with 5 kids... I just do not know I feel myself like an alien being an awkward  witness of such conversations 

And sometimes it is really upsetting because you want to know people , everybody needs communication and when you come to a different country you are willing to meet new friends or at least good acquaintances, cos it does make you feel lonely, when you have no local friends. Plus you want to feel at home in this new environment and of course new friends will make it easier for you.

Yes people do say those words as how are you , are you alright and so on in many languages and in many countries but after those words people who are willing to be sociable are sharing their opinions and talk about very interesting matters, that's how it is in Russia.

[Jazzyclassy]

  maybe if you distanced yourself from your views on russian culture & tried to adopt american culture a little more you may find it easier to make friends in USA?

          

Why do you have to adopt and absorb so much an american culture virtually becoming american to have friends? it  should not be like that, there are a lot of people with different cultures and they can be sociable together and really can be friends. And why everybody should bend over americans to gain friends, why they should distance themselves from their own view? It is just not right
Why americans can not distance themselves from their views . I can ask the same question here

[Misha]

And why everybody should bend over americans to gain friends, why they should distance themselves from their own view? It is just not right

The question is who needs the friends? Odds are that the American, British, Canadian women already have their fair of friends. They do not necessarily need or want more friends. The fact of the matter is that the woman moving into their societies are the ones who need friends and, yes, they will have to make more compromises to make friends. Yes, Russian women will have to suffer through a lot of small talk. Yes, they won't be able to talk about Russian literature and the women they are meeting won't want to talk endlessly about Russia (or Ukraine or wherever). However, with a bit of persistence, you will eventually find some women who will become great friends, and you will be able to share with her all your feelings and talk about a greater variety of things.

At some point, however, you will have to make an effort to talk about the things the other women like to talk about to make friends. Likewise, if I were to move to Russia, I would have to talk about things that Russian men want to discuss in order to make friends. That is life.

[Mars]

I agree with Doll and Ludmila it is the same for me I struggle to find any English women as my friends, I do not get the jokes , even though my English is not that bad. They do tend to talk about something which does not interest me. -
"Nails done? Hair done all make up done, whom are you meeting at the disco? Are you dating both guys yet ?"
-
 and so on in that particular style , moreover it wont necessarily be young girls, it could be women in their 30's with 5 kids... I just do not know I feel myself like an alien being an awkward  witness of such conversations 

JC, I have heard many educated, intelligent AW say that men are usually much more interesting to talk with, compared to women.

So if you hubby is not the jealous type  . . . . .

[Mars]

Guys, I just thought it would be interesting for you to glance and  read  a couple of paragraphs from philosophic observations and thoughts on Russia vs Western World of a Russian prominent philosopher of the 19-th c ( honoris causa---an honorary member --  of Theological Faculty, Cambridge University, England . FYI, other Russian honoris causa were Chaikovsky and Turgenyev) :

"Western spirit is very rationalized, regulated and organized. Western spirit is " bearing the ''press", the "chains" of civilization.
Russian spirit is free, always remains irrational, unorganized and unregulated. Russian spirit does not observe Western formula/ patterns of life.

Ludmila, what is the name of the honoris causa that you quoted above?

[Misha]

Ludmila, what is the name of the honoris causa that you quoted above?

Honoris causa is a title, the philosopher she is referring to is certainly Nikolai Berdiaev. Feel free to read up on him here: http://www.berdyaev.com/

[Jazzyclassy]

JC, I have heard many educated, intelligent AW say that men are usually much more interesting to talk with, compared to women.

So if you hubby is not the jealous type  . . . . .

That is why we do have more common male friends with my hubby than female

[BC]

I started chuckling as I scrolled down thinking "All these non-American's responding to a distinctly American question

Yeah.. I did too 

[Misha]

I started chuckling as I scrolled down thinking "All these non-American's responding to a distinctly American question

Do you really think that most Russians distinguish between Canadians and Americans?  One of my wife's uncles went off on a long rant about the Americans and how they had brought down the Soviet Union and made life miserable for Russians. I then pointed out how I was not American and he looked at me oddly, as if to say what difference could there be, and then went on his long rant as to the problems with "us" Americans  :evil:

[GQBlues]

that's how it is in Russia.

 

To quote BF from another post: Why does it always have to be Me! Me! Me!?

What ever happened to the old adage - when in Rome...? Do this not apply to Russian women?

To Ludmilla, and docatea for that matter, there's a saying here in low-cultured America which you both really need to acquaint yourself with. It has something to do with what you need to do when the unbearable heat starts eminating from the kitchen....

I'm happy that Ludmilla's husband is immersing himself with Russian culture here in the States for her. Unfortunately, despite of it, Ludmilla still seem unsatisfied. Sad.

To which I will ask...isn't it far more logical both for your sanity and your husband's cultural immersion to relocate yourselves back to Nirvana? Why be miserable here?

The last time I put up with this type of silly selfish semantic with my wife was 2 years ago when the car dealership called to tell us her car was done getting serviced. Coincidentally, it also happened during the time I was fed-up with the "Well, this is how we do it in Russia..."  babble. When she asked me to give her a ride to the dealer, I simply told her there's a bus stop about 3/4 mile down the street, which if she hurried up she'll catch the line that'll take her by the dealership in about 2 hours. That is after all  is how they did it in Russia, right?

I don't mind my wife embracing her culture and origin. As a matter of fact, I encourage her to always appreciate who and what she is...but she's crossing the line when she starts to stuff this crap down my throat and make it the fiber and essence of both our lives - day in and day out - in my country and culture.

Now if we were living in Russia that may well be a different story, but not here and not with me. Not ever.

[Gator]

When I talk about lack of culture, this is not talking about last opera, etc. This is to have a knowledge about other cultures and domains and the ability to build my reflexion, based on this knowledge. We have not the same definition again ...

You are correct.  Americans would never refer to such people as "cultured."  Instead, Americans would call them "interesting."   Antonyms include boring, dull, insipid, sterile, jejune, etc.

A person does not need knowledge of European ideaology  to be interesting unless, of course, one's only interest is world affairs.  Who is the dullard in such a case?  

If one's spectrum of knowledge and interests does not overlap that of an ordinary person, it is possible that both are bores, but more likely the 'one' is an arrogant, self-anointed elitist.  

[Gator]

Luda,

I highlight the following replies to your question because I think they are very appropriate.  Don't react to them here, yet please file them away and think about them.

However, no matter where you are, unless you are college aged or below, you have to make the effort to make friends.  Further, for women with children, it will be difficult to make friends because these women don't have a lot of spare time.

Are you actually interested in their opinions "on a broad range of subjects", or just crave the attention to YOUR opinions and suffer from the lack of it?

Americans come from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures. Surely you can find friends that share your common interests in conversation. Seems to me you are too judgemental, and who wants to enter a deep conversation not to be listened to and respected, but only to be judged?

maybe if you distanced yourself from your views on russian culture & tried to adopt american culture a little more you may find it easier to make friends in USA?

What ever happened to the old adage - when in Rome...? Do this not apply to Russian women?

And as I told you in the first American to post:

Just keep in mind that we have all types of people in America.  I find us more diverse than other countries, so you can find in America whatever you want.

You say you live in PA.  Philadelphia and Pittsburg are interesting places to live.  I lived in the Philadelphia suburbs (Chester County) and had good friends from perhaps 10 disparate groups.  If you are residing in a smaller city, what is the population?

Sometimes all you need is a cheerleader type to take a liking to you and introduce you to everyone.  Take care to be nice to the cheerleader no matter how superficial you may think her to be.

[I/O]

Why do you have to adopt and absorb so much an american culture virtually becoming american to have friends?

Jazz, substitute American for English, Australian, German or wherever. Do you still think the same? You are not prepared to become a little bit English over time? Methinks you are.

My example is there is many things I love about Russia but there is certainly things and customs I very much dislike. Neverhtheless, I adopt those customs and practices when there because I feel I am duty bound to do so out of respect for my host country. It doesn't make me any less Australian to become a little bit Russian. Likewise, you will be no less Russian for being a little bit English. Your issue is (as my wife and many others I've met had) the fear of losing who you are. It won't happen, you will become more who you are by adapting. Doesn't make it easy. The hell I have watched a loved one go through at times I can only feel for and admire. It isn't easy and nobody is making light of it but adaption (become a little bit local) is necessary to survival in a new country and certainly essential in making friends. FWIW.

[BrianW]

I wonder what part of the U.S. Ludmilia is from? Whomever said that most Americans are not cultured is right. Most Americans watch 4 hours of our television each day, which is trash. Most Americans know very little about the world around them. This is coming from someone that is as American as apple pie

[Misha]

Most Americans watch 4 hours of our television each day, which is trash.

Well, the same could be said of most Russians. Have you ever watched Russian television? Most of what is aired are knockoffs of American television shows  :evil: Reading has dropped off drastically in the last two decades in Russia and far from all Russians go out regularly to see plays or other cultural events.

[docetae]

This whole thread is finally focusing about something important for emigrant: Most of them want to be integrated when local people want them assimilated.