WHAT IS MEANT BY "FRIENDSHIP" IN USA?

[Gator]

Which just supports the definition of open-mindedness as willingness to consider new facts and new theories based on them - not all beliefs which may be completely unfounded. 

Does not remind me of our discussions regarding climate change.       No animosity harbored at my end.

My opponent was arguing on the premise that the interests of society were by definition more important than individual rights - and that always pisses me off to no end.  Cultural differences, I guess.

Political party difference it seems.  Interesting to see your philosophy.  Was it this way in your student years?

Always pisses you off?  Without eminent domain and land condemnation, we would not have had major highways and national parks.  Nevertheless, the individual still has rights in such proceedings including adequate compensation.

[OlgaH]

Assimilation is a process, nothing is necessarily "forced" about it.

Taken from dictonary.com

- Sociology. the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological amalgamation.

Yes, I stand corrected, but in this case Docetae is drawing a distinction between assimilation as bringing people to conform to a culture (also in the dictionary) and integration as a merging of cultures.

Considering the dictionaries of sociology the assimilation is an indistinguishable process of integration....
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-assimilation.html

and on "social integration and system integration"
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-socialntgrtnndsystmntgrtn.html


 

[Sculpto]

It must be hard for a newcomer to assimilate or integrate in the US.  We have more regional differences than most people are aware of, plus, the society is constantly changing.  for those born here.. imagine if you had skipped the last few decades.. going straight from the 70s or 80s to now.. it would be a shock and hard to adapt.

[OlgaH]

It must be hard for a newcomer to assimilate or integrate in the US.  We have more regional differences than most people are aware of, plus, the society is constantly changing.

In religion aspect I think it is much easier for a newcomer to integrate when society is more tolerant to other religions

[Sculpto]

In religion aspect I think it is much easier for a newcomer to integrate when society is more tolerant to other religions

Thats a good point Olga.. I am personally so far removed from religion I didn't even think about that aspect.

[JR]

When I talk about lack of culture, this is not talking about last opera, etc. This is to have a knowledge about other cultures and domains and the ability to build my reflexion, based on this knowledge. We have not the same definition again ...

Huh? Unless you are a Native American you "are" another culture. What is it to be an American? It is to embrace ALL mankind as equal? What is it to be "French Canadian?" I cannot tell you but it has always "seemed" to me that being Canadian isn't enough, one must be French also. Why not leave the past behind you and become one nation?

To me that is what America is about. It is not dwelling upon past roots, traditions, prejudice's and the like. It is becoming more and more the American culture. The more we leave the past behind us the more free we are to embrace the future.

Say that we lack culture and I'll respond by saying we are creating a new culture. Just because it isn't old doesn't mean it isn't there. America's Star as a superpower may be waning but the impact we've had on the world will be felt for a very, very long time. And for the most part it will be positive.

Our friends up north are very, very similar to us but should I venture to Montreal I would not, in any way fit in.

[Misha]

I cannot tell you but it has always "seemed" to me that being Canadian isn't enough, one must be French also.

Well, that is another matter. The French in Canada were Canadien a couple of centuries before Canada existed 

[Boethius]

Two people may see the same fact either as absolutely normal thing, or as signifying the onslaught of statism and limitation of people's freedom.  I did read the referenced sections and saw what you did not see.  What makes me emotional, Boethius, is not anyone's interpretation of facts, but the premise on which people argue.  My opponent was arguing on the premise that the interests of society were by definition more important than individual rights - and that always pisses me off to no end.  Cultural differences, I guess.

And yet, your references mirrored almost word for word, talking points distributed by the right.  Is that a mere coincidence? 

Ok, here ia link to section 1233.  Please point out where, by reference to the particular section, and your interpretation thereof, where the limitation on freedoms exist.

I am not trying to be snotty, just attempting to understand.

http://www.agingoptions.com/ContentPage.aspx?WebPageId=23449&GroupId=-1

[SMS60]

Ok, here ia link to section 1233.  Please point out where, by reference to the particular section, and your interpretation thereof, where the limitation on freedoms exist.

May I respond. First, using the talking points comment towards BF is insulting her intelligence. Most people who can think on their own dont need talking points.

The very idea of goverment laying out laws (good or bad) towards end of life healthcare is a restriction on freedoms. These laws could be good or bad, we dont know yet. I have my opinion. But any guidelines laid out by uncle sam takes some of your choices(freedom) away.

So the limitation on freedoms do exist.

Boethius, I wish there was a way I could keep my choices and you give yours to the goverment. We all would be happy.

[Misha]

The very idea of goverment laying out laws (good or bad) towards end of life healthcare is a restriction on freedoms.

Any law is by definition a limitation on freedoms. This morning, as I drive to work, I will encounter red lights and the existing traffic laws limit my freedom to drive across the intersection, for example.

These laws could be good or bad, we dont know yet. I have my opinion. But any guidelines laid out by uncle sam takes some of your choices(freedom) away.

They could also be seen as giving you freedoms. Do I have the right to refuse medical care at the end of my life and die a natural death with dignity?

[SMS60]

Any law is by definition a limitation on freedoms. This morning, as I drive to work, I will encounter red lights and the existing traffic laws limit my freedom to drive across the intersection, for example.

They could also be seen as giving you freedoms. Do I have the right to refuse medical care at the end of my life and die a natural death with dignity?

Misha, You spin doctor   Yeah, I had the same problem so I chose to locate where there was no stop lights

For some reason I have trouble believing they would allow me to pull my plug ???

[Blues Fairy]

And yet, your references mirrored almost word for word, talking points distributed by the right.  Is that a mere coincidence? I am not trying to be snotty, just attempting to understand.

Understand what, whether I'm a logical person? Sure, that's not snotty at all. 

Boethius, once again, what you see in that bill is different from what I see.  The fact that my interpretation mirrors some comments distributed by the right is not a coincidence; it means that these points are obvious and many people agree with them, including me, I guess.  What's so illogical about that?
 
Mandating specific end-of-life measures at a specific time, and a list of approved doctors to perform them, even if it's not yet "pushing the button" but simply "explanation by the practitioner", IS limitation of personal freedom as to WHEN and HOW to review these options and which doctors to choose for it.

You will of course disagree; but I fail to see how your disagreement will prove that I am a (generally) illogical person. 

[Boethius]

I was referring to your ideas, not your personality, which logically, I can know nothing about.

Using identical wording to TPM's is a little more than coincidence, IMHO.  Nevertheless, I do note you haven't referred to the legislation linked to demonstrate what portions of section 1233 you found objectionable, and how those provisions establish what you allege.  You've stated it is all logically set out.

SMS, I am not American and don't care about the outcome of the legislative debate.  The process, particularly the dishonesty, is what interests me.  And yes, BF parroted, almost word for word, the same talking points.  Perhaps I lived in the FSU too long to believe in coincidences.

[Blues Fairy]

Nevertheless, I do note you haven't referred to the legislation linked

I don't want to turn this thread into legislative nitpicking.  I think I have summarized the contents of this section pretty well and stated what I think about it.  Will you persist in calling to discuss the section bit by bit?

The process, particularly the dishonesty, is what interests me.  And yes, BF parroted, almost word for word, the same talking points.  

Dishonesty?  I said I agreed with these points; what else do you want?
I think it's really my personality you are attacking; not my logic. 

[GQBlues]

The process, particularly the dishonesty, is what interests me.

Boethius,

Yes I find it interesting as well. I've stated before why I am against public option, so I don't need to say it again.

But, if dishonesty is what interest you, maybe you'll find this even more interesting. S-CHIP, which was signed by this administration into law earlier this year, was actually a defeated proposition in 4 states - resoundingly.

But just like this latest health care reform, when the presiding politicians are telling us ' this is what the people want (a suggestion perhaps denoting majority?), I can't help but understand they're being dishonest.

I am not American and don't care about the outcome of the legislative debate.

Then maybe this is best left for Americans then, yes?

[Sculpto]

not to further derail this thread.. but.. the current plan working its way through the legislative process is a piece of junk.  It has been watered down far too much.

Dump for profit insurance.  Dump pharma influence (and tv ads for that matter) implement tort reform and require doctors to do 20% of their billable time as community service.  Done deal end of story no more BS on any side... Everyone gets health care.. waste and fraud are eliminated and the only people that get screwed are the multi millionaire insurance ceos (oligarchs) who are screwing us all now.

Ok.. back to whatever..

[Gator]

not to further derail this thread.. but.. the current plan working its way through the legislative process is a piece of junk.  It has been watered down far too much.

Dump for profit insurance.  Dump pharma influence (and tv ads for that matter) implement tort reform and require doctors to do 20% of their billable time as community service.  Done deal end of story no more BS on any side... Everyone gets health care.. waste and fraud are eliminated and the only people that get screwed are the multi millionaire insurance ceos (oligarchs) who are screwing us all now.

Ok.. back to whatever..

Should I               



or should I             

There's enough hot air about this issue without bringing it to RWD.  BTW, why would you expect tort reform with a democratic congress?


Ludmila, please return and bring this thread back on the track you started.

[ECOCKS]

"...  BTW, why would you expect tort reform with a democratic congress?

Or with a lawyer in the Oval Office?

[Sculpto]

Should I               



or should I             

There's enough hot air about this issue without bringing it to RWD.  BTW, why would you expect tort reform with a democratic congress?

someone please move the sidetracking to anything goes or whatever..

tort reform is not imo not a one side of the aisle issue.. it affects everyone when there are no controls over frivolity in the court room.  The way I see it is.. average people see medical injury lawsuits (and other injury lawsuits) as a way of seeking revenge on the insurance companies.. so.. they go after massive settlements.. and in turn the insurance companies raise their prices to cover the losses.. and around and around we go.. where we will stop.. nobody knows..

anyway.. its wishful thinking on my part.. the system is broken and there is no will to fix it.  Maybe when the medical industry is consuming 50% of GDP (and average peoples income) the few solvent people left in the country will force a change that actually means something.

[OlgaH]

The way I see it is.. average people see medical injury lawsuits (and other injury lawsuits) as a way of seeking revenge on the insurance companies...

Cases vary but in general attorneys don't like to take cases where there is no insurance.

[Sculpto]

Cases vary but in general attorneys don't like to take cases where there is no insurance.

there are certainly situations where lawyers and insurance companies are serving the greater good, but, some people are simply looking for excuses to file lawsuits and its that kind of thing that causes the problem.

[OlgaH]

some people are simply looking for excuses to file lawsuits and its that kind of thing that causes the problem.

For uninsured people it is too much troubles to file lawsuits just for excuses   

[docetae]

Huh? Unless you are a Native American you "are" another culture. What is it to be an American? It is to embrace ALL mankind as equal? What is it to be "French Canadian?" I cannot tell you but it has always "seemed" to me that being Canadian isn't enough, one must be French also. Why not leave the past behind you and become one nation?

To me that is what America is about. It is not dwelling upon past roots, traditions, prejudice's and the like. It is becoming more and more the American culture. The more we leave the past behind us the more free we are to embrace the future.

Say that we lack culture and I'll respond by saying we are creating a new culture. Just because it isn't old doesn't mean it isn't there. America's Star as a superpower may be waning but the impact we've had on the world will be felt for a very, very long time. And for the most part it will be positive.

Our friends up north are very, very similar to us but should I venture to Montreal I would not, in any way fit in.

There are some factors why 50% of people in Quebec want to have their own country (People of Quebec are already recognized by federal government as one nation).
You should come here for a few days (and in Quebec city too), you will be probably surprised

My point about integration/assimilation is whatever you will do, you will always stay all your life a foreigner in the eye of someone else. Because of your accent, of your cultural (sociologic) references.
To tie friendship bonds will be always more difficult than for someone who have roots in his country.
Only the second generation escape this (and not always)

[OlgaH]

Why not leave the past behind you and become one nation?

What do you mean saying the past?

It is not dwelling upon past roots, traditions, prejudice's and the like.

I think we shouldn't put prejudices in one line with roots and tradition.

My roots are my ancestors, my parents and my grandparents, just for example my roots are my grandmothers who sang me our Russian folk songs and taught me to make pirogi's and borsch My roots are also Russian literature and... there is so much to put...

You post reminded me of one case. An American woman asked me about my religion. I said that it is Orthodoxy. Her reply was: Don't worry, everyone can make mistake. We will help you.  

[Ludmila]

Ya-hoo! Gator et all!

Fellas, I am here!......I simply didn't want to be in the way....... The subjects you've been  raising are very serious ( and , certainly, I do have my idea on many of them, as on many other things in this life).
I will be back, that's for sure, in about 8-9 days, and I will be all yours,well, almost...

To add to this, I believe I have a few interesting things to discuss and suggestions to make.

However, there's one little problem unsloved.

While I am away, please have a small in-house discussion: somehow, it's not working out very nice. I don't mind when posters pinch each other at times, when they're "nutcracking" so to speak......

But to call  a sincere, devoted citizen of his country, who SINCERELY, NOT FOR A SHOW loves his Fatherland, is proud of its history and  cultural heritage, for whom there still remain sacred things about his country--- "a lap dog" , only because he was able to UNDERSTAND and add to his intellectual and cultural baggage a huge layer of something which is one of the mightiest parts of the world culture -- Russian cultural values (sadly,privatized by the  communist regime ). .

V.Nabokov once said: "....to know  the language of another country and its culture is akin to conquering its cultural kingdom". There can hardly be a better  and more final explanation of this idea. 

Needless to say,  we are now twice as rich, growing into our respective cultures.
If other guys want to say what is to be said in this circumstance by gentlemen worth their salt, I don't mind. If Good OlMan does it, we will soon see it behind us all.

You all take very good care of yourselves .