A woman of your age

[Misha]

NO SOUP FOR YOU!  Get out!  You sir are the last straw.  You are deliberately antagonizing me before I go on my trip. You think I am going to write anything on this forum after that?  Go crawl back into your rat hole please.  Adios bitch.

I do wish you the best Sculpto.

[groovlstk]

FWIW.. my lady and I have had very frank discussions about our age gap.  She is concerned about the 20 years later situation when I am old and she is still youngish.  We both have a very clear understanding of what the problems might be and what expectations are reasonable. 

Sculpto, Misha's post may have been harsh but don't dismiss his point because it sticks in your craw. You can talk about age differences with your girl until you are blue in the face. Until you both live it, these words mean only that you will both make an honest effort to make things work.

An appropriate analogy might be when you start a new job. You might think your boss is going to be great based on the short amount of time spent together, the company is stable, co-workers seem nice, salary is great, you're gung-ho to work your butt off to make it work - but anyone past 30 knows that you'll never really know if it's a good fit until you've been working there for a few months.

Frankly, the greater burden is on me to be in good shape and take good care of my health in every way so that I can keep up with her.   

This is a good start but pretty much par for the course for those of us marrying younger women. A guy can lose weight and work himself into tremendous physical shape, but that addresses (at least for a time) only one of the issues that may crop up as a problem due to the age difference.

[Gator]

Well, Sculpto (his user name before switching to 2012) has written reams about his relationship (and just about everything else for that matter). More than enough to come to some pretty reasonably conclusions as to his "relationship"   

Misha, your opinions are as valuable as the next man’s yet I feel the need to comment.  When criticizing Fiction’s advice, you attacked the messenger because of his lifestyle and relative lack of experience in the subject.

While Fiction is at the "Open Book" end of personal information disclosure, you are at the other.  I am not saying one is better, simply we are different.

All we know is that you reside in a smaller Canadian city, had trouble finding acceptable women to date there,  met your “age appropriate” wife via a Russian dating site rather than through a traditional marriage agency (facilitated by the fact that you speak Russian), and play Monopoly boardgame for a big night out. 

In contrast, Fiction’s relationship with a FSUW mirrors a roller coaster ride with things done in excess (by my standards, not his), and for a big night out does fire dances in the nude in the desert.

I agree with you that although Fiction is involved with a younger woman, the relationship is not yet proven (e. g., he still has “tests” planned for her).  In contrast, you are happily married, yet have not been in a large age gap relationship.   

So who knows more?  Who is right?  I say both of you are correct in regard to having the type of woman who brings joy to your respective lives.  And my guess is that Fiction’s FSUW would not be happy with you nor your wife with him.  Each of us is different.  Vive le dfference.  Without our general diversity this would be a boring forum.

So regarding which advice is the most relevant, I would value for obvious reasons that given by KenC, ScottinCrimea and Turbo.  And even better are the opinions given by RW such as RussianWind.   And that advice is:  the vast majority of RW will not consider marriage to a much older man.  No $hit. 

And the best advice of all:  know what is going on inside the pretty head of the young RW standing in front of you.  Yes, impossible, but a man must elevate himself from his giddy state and try.

[Daveman]

You don't have to buy it; I'm just telling you what I've seen work. If everyone has the same goal you're more likely to get there. I've seen these "HallMark" notions about love turn into major disappointments. Statues belong on pedestals, not people.

I disagree that what Boethius spoke about was a "Hallmark" notion.   during the life process, goals change, diverge, come together, migrate.  The glue which holds it in place can be varied, but when speaking about love which lasts long term, the cohesion begins when two people love each other, knowing they don't belong on a pedestal, and consistently feed each others needs.  Simple statement for sure, but certainly nothing "Hallmarkish" about it.  Of course there is more complexity in a living, evolving relationship with variants as many as there are individuals.

[Misha]

Misha, your opinions are as valuable as the next man’s yet I feel the need to comment.  When criticizing Fiction’s advice, you attacked the messenger because of his lifestyle and relative lack of experience in the subject.

Attacked his lifestyle? Now I understand, I ruffled some feathers as I pointed out that his last trip to Moscow involved pretty much one long party and a number of spats thrown in for good measure between Sculpto and his girlfriend   Call me judgmental if you will (though I prefer to see it as realism), but I believe that a relationship begins when the party ends.

I am curious, though, did Sculpto ever finish writing his "contract"? The one where they were supposed to spell out who did what once they were married.

Overall, this is the conclusion that I have drawn. Sculpto is committed to the fantasy that he has built up and nothing will dissuade him. He will rationalize any behavior and will overlook anything that she does or says, as he really, really, really wants to believe that she is the One.

Perhaps I am wrong and she is truly as Sculpto imagines her to be. If that is the case I wish him a long and happy life with his g/f as they build a long-term relationship together. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong in this case. If my suspicions are correct, Sculpto risks having a pretty rude awakening at some point. Either way, I really hope that he is thinking rationally and won't end up in a massive train wreck relationship at some point. He seems like a nice guy, and hope that neither he nor his girlfriend get hurt.

But, hey, what do I know posting from my rat hole    

[KenC]

the age gap itself is not the problem, it is how people deal with problems that matters and that has nothing to do with age.

Sculpto,
Sorry partner, but age difference DOES matter.  Sooner or later it will definitely matter a lot.  Project youself ten years down the line or twenty.  You never know what the future will bring, but the one thing that you cannot change is that you both will grow older.  No matter how well you take care of yourself, there is still much unknown about your future health for example.  And the older you get, the more difficult it becomes to maintain good health.

You make a very good point about your line of work being a plus.  Being in the artsy fartsy world is exciting, fresh and appealing to younger people.  However, that world is also very fickled and doesn't sound like a long term stable line of work either.  You cannot know when your woman's attitude will change from "exciting lifestyle" to "I need stability in my life because I want to start a family."  I will not begin to think I know everything about why a woman would choose an older man, but in most cases the appeal is at least a stable lifestyle.

I do wish you well.  Sincerely, I do.  But you have no crystal ball and you cannot predict the future either.  You are yet to spend a day married to anyone.  Sorry, but that is relevant.  Adjusting to married life is a task in itself.  Adjusting to married life with a foreign woman is even more difficult.  You cannot possibly "know" much about it until you live it day in and day out.  You are much better off to use the terms "I hope" or "I think" or even "I conclude" than "I know."

Rather than getting offended by the naysayers, explain why you think differently.  Accept that you are taking a calculated risk, but you think it is worth it because.........  Acknowledge the risks involved and prepare for them the best you can, but don't deny them.

In my 10 year marriage to Lena, 91/2 of them were heaven on earth but it still ended.  Still I never promoted an age gap marriage.  I often used the word "aberration" when referring to our marriage.  So happens, it was not.  The age difference eventually caught up with even us.  Like you, I took a chance because I thought the woman was worth the risk, but please do not deny the risks involved.  Good luck.
KenC

[Gator]

No other issue makes for more hurt feelings than discussions about age gaps.

Others (non-Caucasian men, men with psychological conditions, undereducated men from a rural setting, etc.)  might disagree with the opinion that age gap comments are the “most hurtful.” Personally I don’t find critical comments about age gaps as hurtful.   Perhaps that is because I have a high degree of confidence.   

Maybe your comment about age gap criticism being the most “hurtful” is the implication of such criticism for the assumed insincerity of RW married to older men.  Comments that ridicule or criticize a man’s family are the most offensive in my mind.  However, such is something an “old goat” will encounter frequently.  If the heat bothers him, he should get out of the kitchen because it is not going away.

We're all in the same boat, and a frank discussion about what guys can do to mitigate this issue (or simply prevent it from becoming a major issue) would be infinitely more valuable than what has been debated in the past.

Absolutely!  Fantastic point!

I recall KenC writing a few years ago about the specific issues and problems of an age gap marriage based on his actual experience.  I believe he discussed what it required from him. 

P. S. While writing this, KenC has appeared, and his points are valid as always.

[Gator]

Maybe it's to dissuade those that have yet committed themselves to such folly.

In my mind the lurkers should be dissuaded.

Interesting choice, your word "folly."  I know you reside in Norway; however, if you were to return with your lovely bride to your UK neighborhood, how many UK women would say that your bride is "age appropriate?"  Or "There was no need to go to Russia for a bride?"

Ah, you don't care what they say because it is not your responsibility to satisfy their standards.   

[greg2654]

Simple statement for sure, but certainly nothing "Hallmarkish" about it.

Yes, I got overly sarcastic. My apologies.

[groovlstk]

Maybe your comment about age gap criticism being the most “hurtful” is the implication of such criticism for the assumed insincerity of RW married to older men.  Comments that ridicule or criticize a man’s family are the most offensive in my mind.  However, such is something an “old goat” will encounter frequently.  If the heat bothers him, he should get out of the kitchen because it is not going away.

Gator, most of the guys and women who get offended by age gap discussions aren't the guys who are married and living this reality every day. It's the newbs who have anecdotal stories about a 90-year-old neighbor who married a 17-year old ballerina after WW2 and they remained happily married for 100 years, blah blah blah. It's most evident whenever a young RW posts in an age gap thread and honestly admits that the idea of sex with a guy 30 years her senior makes her sick. There is always a nasty backlash from old farts with wounded egos who are drunk on the "attention" they get from 19-year-olds on dating sites and advise their female critics to "get real," as if the only way to escape an impoverished life is to welcome the advances of reptiles like Ambach.

Instead of a frank discussion on what specific problems an age gap brings to a marriage, most guys here are unwilling to even admit that potential problems are inevitable.

I sincerely wish JB were here to add his comments.

[remiel6]

since we are looking for data I did an internet search on this. This is by no means an exhaustive search and someone who has the time might want to look more closely. Most of the studies I found regarding age gaps and divorce were from england. I am not sure how that relates to americans or not. The age gap has logically the most impact on pensions and retirement planning. I will post a link to what I found if the site lets me. It would seem to indicate that there does not appear, at least in england to be a correlation between age gap and divorce. That does not say there is not a correlation between age gap and other factors. Here's the link.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/agd0608.pdf

[Vaughn]

Yesterday in the early evening Elvira and I had one of those "Did you ever imagine
ten years ago....?" lighthearted kitchen discussions when she sprang an unexpected
question on me: "Had I been ten years older - really, be honest - would you still have
made contact with me?" My immediate reply was "Of Course!" as I've always maintained
to her and others that her eyes and profile autobio were the initial attraction.

"Come on" she continued, "be honest...."  Admittedly, I gave her query
some thought last night. Was I fooling myself in the beginning?

Another fountain of thought came when Doll recently stated that a majority of such
ladies marrying older WM fell into a "desperation" category...  given we both fall into
Gator's domain of confidence, we summarily dismiss both points as a couple. I could
go on and on about how she was getting along just fine before I happened along,
and how she wasn't particularly keen on leaving her comfortable surroundings. Yet
it all begs questions to which we gave only minor consideration back then.

  

[Misha]

You cannot know when your woman's attitude will change from "exciting lifestyle" to "I need stability in my life because I want to start a family."

An excellent point. This is where I see the greatest danger. In Sculpto's case, he is dating a young woman who is clearly rebelling against the mores of her very strict family (based strictly on what Sculpto has posted). She is still, I am certain, dealing with the death of her father and I am sure many issues that have yet to be resolved.

She is also still doing what most young twenty year-olds do, partying and enjoying her youth. Nothing wrong with that. However, the woman she is now, may not be the woman she will be in five years.

However, Ken brings up an interesting point, one that I am not convinced Sculpto has addressed with his gf. What happens if she changes and if she wakes up one day and wants to have children and a house in the suburbs and rather than discussing the latest political events in Mexico will want to talk about baby strollers? Will Sculpto be ready and willing to be a father in five years or ten years or even fifteen? 

Adjusting to married life with a foreign woman is even more difficult.

This cannot be emphasized enough. Finally, after three years, I can finally say that my wife is now adjusted to life in Canada. She still gets stressed out by having to study English, but she now takes it in stride. 



  

[Dave13]

Ken, Of course you need to acknowledge the risks involved but thats true for any relationship. Life is full of disappointment and happiness. No guarantee is offered!   Thats what makes it interesting!

Dave

[Misha]

Ken, Of course you need to acknowledge the risks involved but thats true for any relationship. Life is full of disappointment and happiness. No guarantee is offered!   Thats what makes it interesting!

Acknowledging the risks also implies understanding the consequences. What will life be like if things do not work out and are you capable of dealing with all potential outcomes, good and bad.

[Ade]

In my mind the lurkers should be dissuaded.

Interesting choice, your word "folly."  I know you reside in Norway; however, if you were to return with your lovely bride to your UK neighborhood, how many UK women would say that your bride is "age appropriate?"  Or "There was no need to go to Russia for a bride?"

Ah, you don't care what they say because it is not your responsibility to satisfy their standards.   

Ah, but for us it's no folly.

And yes, I care not one whit what others think of our 13 year age difference; we are both comfortable with it and have yet to see any age gap related issues arise over the past 21 months. Perhaps in 10 years when I'm 54 and she is 41 I'll have to get a Viagra prescription to keep up with her... I'm confident we will make it that far and more.

Strangely, or may be not, none of my Norwegian friends or acquaintances have mentioned it and are nothing but happy for us.

Age gap relationships happen all the time in the UK and 13 years would hardly register with most people I think; I have a step-brother that fathered a child with a 21 year old, 19 years his junior, and a step sister that was with a guy more than 20 years her senior. I'll admit that neither relationship worked out though.

[KenC]

Ken, Of course you need to acknowledge the risks involved but thats true for any relationship. Life is full of disappointment and happiness. No guarantee is offered!   Thats what makes it interesting!

Dave

Dave,
I just knew someone would say that.    Of course any marriage is a risk but you need to realize that you are compounding your risks too.  Add to the usual risk of marriage the foreign factor and then add an age different factor.  You end up with a long shot at best.  OK, OK I know people win the lottery everyday, but how many do not?  And yes, you can draw an inside straight, but it just ain't too likely.

Our age difference was my #1 major concern when I married Lena.  It was not an unjustified concern and my original instincts were correct.  No one needs to tell me "I told you so" because I knew it going in.  I took the risk and I eventually paid the price.  My bad.

It is so funny now, but my friend Gator used to bust my balls for telling guys all the downside and all the risks of an age gap marriage.  He used to say, "yeah Ken, no one else should be as happy as you."  And I was (happy) but in the end, my fears were not for naught.  And I also accepted that the risk I choose bit me in the ass eventually.  But as Frank would say "I did it my way"

I'm not saying "don't do it" just understand you are multiplying your risks by doing it. (age gap)
KenC

[Sculpto]

Quite frankly i had not intended to continue posting.  I do apologize for my outburst of foul language.

Nevertheless, the advice/commentary offered by Gator and KenC and some others IS ON TARGET.

I do not have illusions about the risks involved.  The girl made them clear and specific.  She said, "what if you old and can't have sex, and I young and beautiful, what you want I do?"  My reply will remain an enigma to this forum and will not be revealed.. but, I will say that I am probably a lot more open minded than 99% of the people here.  If she loves me and we have a solid life together sex really isn't the most important thing and she agrees with that.  If she chose to move on it would be a pity and I am sure I would be sad, but, very frankly, I do not get torn up about breakups anymore.  I have broken up with more women than most anyone here has ever even talked to.  So, while i might not have ever been married, I have had my share and then some of relationships, loves, likes, lusts and otherwise.  Breaking up is not the end of something as much as it is the beginning of something new.  I regroup and move on in a rather emotionless way.  So, if it ends up that way so be it, though I hope it won't but am willing to take the risk.

I will also disagree with the stability argument.  Even right now I can not offer her much more stability than she has on her own.  I live in a very expensive city where 80% of the population rents.  I rent.  On occasion I contemplate moving back to Kansas City where I could buy a decent house outright next week if I wanted to, for less than the amount of $ needed to make a down payment on a 4k a month mortgage in SF... but then I remind myself why I live here and put up with the costs and some other inconveniences.  Culture, diversity, amazing geography and a better way of life, even if I can not afford a lot of luxuries I would have elsewhere.  She is 100% aware of this.  I think some folks ought to review a lot of Aloe's comments on the subject.  She is the same age as "A" and is determined to make her own fortune because her husband is not as ambitious as she would like.  "A" is exactly the same way.  She has often said I do not need to worry about supporting her, she will support me.  At first I thought it was BS, but, as time has passed I have seen how incredibly capable she is and have 100% confidence that not only will she quickly adapt to the opportunities available to her here, but, she will excel.  Our connection is based on me being the ONLY man that has ever understood her.  She is confident to a fault, highly intelligent, highly independent and extreme in many ways.  Most men, Russian men, are intimidated by her.  She is beautiful AND brilliant and the polar opposite of a wall mouse.  Opinionated, aggressive and outwardly not very lady like on a professional level.  Her experience with men is they want to sleep with her but don't want anything to do with her.  I am the first and only man that she has known that makes her feel like a woman, like a girl, that makes her laugh and giggle and let go of a really hard exterior that she shows the rest of the world.  Most of the guys here who have been critical of her wouldn't be able to last five minutes in a debate with her.  She would tear you to pieces and send you home crying to mama.

I don't expect ANYONE here to understand that and I don't care if they do or not. 

[Daveman]

Man, some excellent stuff here... while we are in the "nitty gritty" mode I'd like to pose a question that perhaps some of you can actually address...

Granted, people are individuals, and we have discussed many times the "more the age gap the greater the risk".  Anyone care to give a stab at breaking it down further?

For example, what are the differences, added risk, etc, as we increase the gap? What are the risks at say, 10 year gap, 15 year gap, 20+, or is there no perceived difference?  What are the determining factors of this risk which perhaps are not so obvious to those who are just beginning and perhaps still wearing the rose colored glasses?

[Vaughn]

For example only, a woman of 22 marries a guy 20 years her senior, or maybe more. He's
already got 2 children by his first wife. The 22 year old professes to be fine with that,
but suddenly at 30 years of age, begins to desire kids of her own. Now the guy is in his
late 40's, early 50's - he faces an all-important choice.

[Misha]

"A" is exactly the same way.  She has often said I do not need to worry about supporting her, she will support me.  At first I thought it was BS, but, as time has passed I have seen how incredibly capable she is and have 100% confidence that not only will she quickly adapt to the opportunities available to her here, but, she will excel. 

This is where I would say that both of you are living in a bit of a fantasy world. Sure, some immigrants move to a new country and become successful immediately. Most don't. Most spend years working their way up, accepting jobs that they would never have done in their own countries, and only years later reach the level of success they had aspired to when arriving in their new country. What will both of you do if her expectations are not met? Even very capable people are not guaranteed success and many more capable people fail. How will she handle life in a new country if she does not excel?

[Vaughn]

I have broken up with more women than most anyone here has ever even talked to.

Superlative. 2012, gimme a break.

100% aware of this.....  have 100% confidence.....   I am the first and only man....
I don't expect ANYONE here to understand

More superlatives. 2012, I like you. We've spoken by phone, but I didn't hear you speaking
in such certain tone. You further claim

I will say that I am probably a lot more open minded than 99% of the people here.

Not criticizing your choices, 2012, but open-mindedness also applies to heeding advice, and not
just accepting risks.

[KenC]

Man, some excellent stuff here... while we are in the "nitty gritty" mode I'd like to pose a question that perhaps some of you can actually address...

Granted, people are individuals, and we have discussed many times the "more the age gap the greater the risk".  Anyone care to give a stab at breaking it down further?

For example, what are the differences, added risk, etc, as we increase the gap? What are the risks at say, 10 year gap, 15 year gap, 20+, or is there no perceived difference?  What are the determining factors of this risk which perhaps are not so obvious to those who are just beginning and perhaps still wearing the rose colored glasses?

Dave,
I'll take a stab at this.  Take it or leave it.  

It is not so much even just the number of years difference but the life stage difference that is important. The age number will eventually catch up with you sooner or later however.

Let's take a 15 year age differnce for example.  That same 15 years is a much greater difference between a 20 yo woman and a 35 yo man than a 40 yo woman and a 55 yo man.  It is all due to life experiences or lack thereof.

I happen to be of the opinion that women from the fsu are more mature than AW.  So the age difference can be stretched somewhat, but life experiences cannot.  The couples life cycles need to be in sync.

It is so difficult to do so, but a guy just shouldn't consider a woman at a much different stage of life than his.  You can discuss everything until you are blue in the face, but things change and biology takes over.  Child bearing, of course is a biggie here.  Even if a young woman in her early 20's does not desire to have children then, she is subject to change her opinion in her 30's.  So as it may be OK to some to father a child later in the man's life, to many it is not such a good idea.  
The biology factor also goes beyond just child bearing too.  An older man might like to kick up his heels while in the fsu and maybe on an occasional weekend back home, but it can wear pretty thin on a steady diet of the same.  The reverse is also true.  A younger woman may enjoy a classy romantic dinner and some live jazz after, but how long before she is wanting to shake her booty til she drops?

These differences put a stress on a relationship.  Stress is not good for a relationship.  It isn't a stretch that this stress will turn into resentment.  You can see where I am going with this.

There is no "magic number" to what is or is not an acceptable risk, it is just on a sliding scale.  I don't see how it would be possible for two people to be in sync with their life cycle with 25 or more years age difference.  20 years may be doable but stretching it.  15 or less can be done.  But as I said, it depends upon the overall age and experiences of the couple in question.

For example, I am 57 and have begun communication with some fsuw.  Knowing what I know now, I would still consider a woman 20 years my junior or any age up to and including my age.  I would not consider a woman of any age that was never married before or has not had a child or she would have to be past her child bearing age.
KenC

[Gator]

KenC, I agree completely with you about being in the same stage of life.

[Gator]

I will say that I am probably a lot more open minded than 99% of the people here. 

I would say you are more liberal than 99% of the people here.  Open minded?  You have quickly displayed some intransigent opinions about a variety of subjects, and if your open minded statement is true, that means that long ago you went to the top of a mountain and deliberated about all of the issues in the world with the world's best philosophers.

If she loves me and we have a solid life together sex really isn't the most important thing and she agrees with that.

 

True.  This is not about sex, or at least sex should not be at the top of the list. 

I have broken up with more women than most anyone here has ever even talked to.

 

And I know an alcoholic who has spilled more beer than most everyone here has drunk.  [Does that sound like something Misha would say to Sculpto?]

  At first I thought it was BS, but, as time has passed I have seen how incredibly capable she is and have 100% confidence that not only will she quickly adapt to the opportunities available to her here, but, she will excel. 

 

This gets back to KenC’s comment about adjusting to marriage with a foreign woman. In other words, your “A” may be able to do it; however, it will take years and years.

Our connection is based on me being the ONLY man that has ever understood her.  She is confident to a fault, highly intelligent, highly independent and extreme in many ways.  Most men, Russian men, are intimidated by her.  She is beautiful AND brilliant and the polar opposite of a wall mouse.  Opinionated, aggressive and outwardly not very lady like on a professional level.  Her experience with men is they want to sleep with her but don't want anything to do with her.  I am the first and only man that she has known that makes her feel like a woman, like a girl, that makes her laugh and giggle and let go of a really hard exterior that she shows the rest of the world.  Most of the guys here who have been critical of her wouldn't be able to last five minutes in a debate with her.  She would tear you to pieces and send you home crying to mama.


I don't expect ANYONE here to understand that and I don't care if they do or not.

This sounds like the plot of a Michael Douglas film.  He is playing a divorced professor, boinking an incredibly beautiful and bright student 25 years younger, and explaining his elation and emotions to his friends who think he is losing touch.  Such has happened in the life of many a bright, curious girl.  It is a transient phase as part of their period of discovery and development.

I am not saying that this is your case.  Frankly, I don’t know nearly enough and don’t want to.   And please don’t respond because there is no way that you can be sure.  Just file this away please.

Eric, enjoy the 30 days in Thailand with your woman.  It sounds like a delightful trip, and if I had to go with a male companion  (perish the thought!) to Thailand, I could not think of a more interesting person from RWD than you because our objectives for a travel experience seem similar.  Besides having fun together, most important is to decide whether she is truly feeling what you are feeling.