Who comes first: Spouse or children

[KenC]

GQ,
Thanks for the explanation.  It jogged a few memory cells in my old brain too.  My own mother was a control freak much like I described Lena's mom.  I remember that I had to put an end to her verbal attacks against my first wife while we were dating.  I had to make it perfectly clear that there was never going to be any interference in my relationship by her.

I may remind you that I do come from a Russian family too.  My mother and both grandmothers were strong dominating women that constantly tried to force their views upon their children (and husbands).  Maybe this IS a Russian thang, come to think of it.  ??? I would love to hear from some of the ladies here on the subject.
KenC

[Mars]

Viking: I know few parents who will not take a bullet for their kids. I know I would. And many of us put the kids first in more ways than we should have. But there are times when the spouse needs to come first. The issues can vary of course, but basically two people come into a marriage first for love, companionship, whatever, and if the kids affect this relationship, the marriage will have problems. My AW wife and I were very much into each other. Along came babies and we did what we had to , to give them the best we could. But she could not let go, wanted to be the controlling factor in their lives, and rather than sharing her love between me and them, she shifted more to the left and "left" me hanging.

KenC:  Regardless of the advice sited above from the clinical psychologist above, my first wife and I put our children first which is only proper IMO.  This does not mean you ignore your spouse or even your own wants and desires, but children need the focus of your attention for many years.

The words of Viking and KenC sum up the situation for most men and women who have children.  It applies to myself also.  Parents focus all energies toward the development of the children in all ways; health, education, personal development, future, etc.

But my posed question goes beyond that.

What is the situation where the child's health, education, personal development and future is in no way at stake?  The wife (mother) or husband (father) still will be faced, in situations where none of the above is at stake, in making a decision to go with the desires of either the spouse or the child (or with MIL, siblings of the spouses, etc.)

And go beyond simple explanations of: look for a compromise, etc.  Go beyond those simple cases to where there can be no compromise, no sharing, no trading of times, no nothing.  A decision must be made to go with the spouse or some other party.

A couple of examples have been presented here.  Look at Viking's case he described re the fiance who wants to go back to FSU to bring son to USA.  Viking doesn't really want her to take that option.  She will have to choose between the future spouse and her son.  It is not relevant that the son may not even want her to come to get him.  It is what she choses to do that is important for the discussion at hand.

Second, Phil hinted at frequent situations wherein a romantic moment between the two of them was interrupted by a call from her dau who might need something like her toenails polished.  The mother readily left her man to go to the dau, as I understand it.

So, particularly you men married to FSUW and you married FSUW.  What is your take on this?  Who is chosen in these very, non infant and non endangering to children situations:  Mate or child?  Maybe this question is too sensitive for you men to answer if it makes you think of where you really stand with your spouse.

And to all: Are the choices made by FSUW noteably different than those of non-FSU women?

[Doll]

I would love to hear from some of the ladies here on the subject.

Well, before RW start talking of their mothers and cultural things I would really remind you, guys, that many AW ARE bossy and dominating. It feels like there are times more of  bossy AW than RW.
It is just my feeling after I got to know many American wives here (and Russian there).
I don't really know if you are talking of RW vs AW or what?

[ECOCKS]

But my posed question goes beyond that.

...

So, particularly you men married to FSUW and you married FSUW.  What is your take on this?  Who is chosen in these very, non infant and non endangering to children situations:  Mate or child?  Maybe this question is too sensitive for you men to answer if it makes you think of where you really stand with your spouse.

And to all: Are the choices made by FSUW noteably different than those of non-FSU women?

My take is that mine doesn't do this. If her son calls and needs something done, it is considered as to reasonableness and how it fits everyone's schedule before she agrees to do it or asks me to do it for him.

My opinion is that this is an individual thing with no bearing on cultural factors.

[Blues Fairy]

And go beyond simple explanations of: look for a compromise, etc.  Go beyond those simple cases to where there can be no compromise, no sharing, no trading of times, no nothing.  A decision must be made to go with the spouse or some other party.

A couple of examples have been presented here.

It might be worth pointing out that in both those examples, the women do not choose between husband and child but between husband and their selfish desire to control their child's life.  Whatever they are doing is not being done for the child, but for themselves. 

I have a hard time imagining a situation where something must be done genuinely FOR the child and still "there can be no compromise, no sharing, no trading of times, no nothing" - unless the husband is a complete dork.   

[remiel6]

Well, before RW start talking of their mothers and cultural things I would really remind you, guys, that many AW ARE bossy and dominating. It feels like there are times more of  bossy AW than RW.
It is just my feeling after I got to know many American wives here (and Russian there).
I don't really know if you are talking of RW vs AW or what?

Doll, I could not agree more with you, which I think is why many of us starting looking elsewhere for wives.

[Doll]

Doll, I could not agree more with you, which I think is why many of us starting looking elsewhere for wives.

I am not sure of many advantages of marrying RW though. You know AW (some of them) but you do not know RW (oh, boy- they are stubborn!  )

[remiel6]

I know my fiance who is Ukrainian,  and admits to me she is stubborn  but I love her anyway  although she says she is stubborn I am yet to see it too much, but I've no doubt that soon after she arrives I will somehow run into this brick wall  It's okay I love her anyway 

[viking]

It might be worth pointing out that in both those examples, the women do not choose between husband and child but between husband and their selfish desire to control their child's life.  Whatever they are doing is not being done for the child, but for themselves. 

I have a hard time imagining a situation where something must be done genuinely FOR the child and still "there can be no compromise, no sharing, no trading of times, no nothing" - unless the husband is a complete dork.   

In my specific situation, it is not as if her son was in an accident, was seriously sick and she wanted/needed to be with him. Then by all means go. I would encourage this. It would be a situation where the child must come before anything else. Here it is her "perceived" notion that "he needs me". A 20yo man, coming out of the army, does not need to have his hands held to take a train ride for a visa interview, or hop on a plane, non-stop, to NY. Unfortunately I cannot ask him directly if HE wants this. How many younger RW, coming here, do this on thier own? The main issue here is her desire to control this mans life, to some degree, where I am seeking to have him, once here, to become independant. Why she cannot cut the cord is something I have yet to figure out. Is it just separation anxiety or something more. I can say that one time he came home for a few days R and R and she was upset that he wanted to spend time with his friends and not her. What does this say about his wanting to be on his own?

[OlgaH]

My mother and both grandmothers were strong dominating women that constantly tried to force their views upon their children (and husbands).  Maybe this IS a Russian thang, come to think of it.  ??? I would love to hear from some of the ladies here on the subject.
KenC

Honestly, I can not recall any case of my grandmother or mother's domination. There of course were some things that I was not allowed to do but mostly it concerned my safety and always was provided with an explanation. Though very often I did not listen.   When I was 6 y.o. my uncle told me that his straight razor was very sharp and showed its sharpens using a piece of fabric, of course I checked his razor's sharpness after with my finger.

My grandfather told me a story. There was a wood-and coal-burning stove in my grandparent's house. How to teach a three years old child not to touch an iron door of the stove? My grandpa was holding my hand and moving it closer and closer to the stove's iron door and every time when I felt the heat I was trying to take my hand away. My granny was lamenting behind us that he could burn my hand. Of course it did not happen but I knew that it was not safe to touch the iron door.

I remember how my grandparents were discussing together the different kind of things. When my mother and I went to a store to buy me something my mother always asked my opinion if I liked, for example a dress or did not. When she gave me pocket money she never asked me how I spent it but I was always glad to tell her. She never scolded me when our home was full of smoke when I was trying to bake something, but she did not let me go out if I did not clean my mess. If I brought pigeons with broken wings or legs and homeless kitties it was my duty to clean after them. We could not have a dog because our flat was small. One day I brought home two big rhinoceros beetles...

I don't remember any domination I remember the explanations and open conversations and also a saying that was a principle in our family: He who likes skiing downhill must enjoy climbing uphill.  

And yes the straps of my dress weren't fastened on my back as it should be. It was always fastened as I liked to do it  

[remiel6]

Viking -- He is 20, and I would bet good money he agree's with you. I think she just wants to feel needed and perhaps still wants her little boy to be well "little" and need her.

[GQBlues]

Well, my Mum literally begged me before NOT to fall in love and marry a woman from our culture. Her reason was that women of our culture becomes very controlling and domineering - especially when they get married.

To put that in perspective, remember the whole discussion about how in a typical Russian household, the man is the head of the family but the woman will be the neck that moves it... well the women in our culture is somewhat the same except the woman is also the fist that clobbers him if he doesn't do what she tells him to; the feet the kicks him out if he disagree or gets too lazy to do much of anything, etc...and the way in which they nag rivals the thundering redundancy of Rapper's Delight.

Is this true with my mum? NO. With my marriage, on any of my marriage situation/s, she'll listen, ask Qs about what our disposition is and she either agrees or suggests an option we may not yet considered or expressed - beyond it she simply cautions us to make decisions in the best interest for both of us. When I immigrated to the US, I was a few years younger than Viking's fiancee's son, also didn't speak English and this happened before the fall of USSR when air travel was still politically tedious and planes couldn't carry large amounts of fuel (meaning there were a lot more layovers/stopovers than today). My mother also arrived here way before I did. I travelled alone the entire way and Mum simply waited in SFO. With the exception of almost getting lost in Korea's airport, everything was fine. It was actually a fun experience for me.

About the only 'controlling' act my mother unleashed upon me was she forbid me to speak our native tongue completely and immediately after I arrived. She said it can only help me faster to better acclimate to my new society/country. She literally ignored me if I spoke in our language even at home. I had to learn to communicate in English. I always knew it was far more tougher on her than it ever was for me.

I'm not so sure if over-concerned, over-controlling, micro-managing Mums are inherently cultural. I think it's largely instinctual but also partly influenced by every individual's subjective environmental condition and state.

All my ex-GFs, and now even my wife, will definitely choose my Mum over me. Easy.      I can't say I blame them. She's the coolest Mum there is...

[viking]

My mother came over from Italy, on a boat, at age 16, speaking no english at all. Her father and mother put her on this boat ( it was the last time she saw them) and her uncle picked her up on Ellis Island. She stayed with him until she married my father.

[remiel6]

GQ- that is a really neat story.  I cannot relate other than my own travels which are nothing like what you had to go thru. As for my mother, or my father for that matter. My families came over here so long ago they both arrived in the US before they opened ellis Island. So, when I visited I was one of the few people who could not trace his family back thru ellis island. I know when I first arrived in the Ukraine, I knew no russian. I still managed to find my way around. So, I think her son will be fine.

[GQBlues]

I think many of us will likely agree that while Viking's future SIL's pending travel experience will create a small amount of anxiety but also a fun one to experience; it's also fair to say that this perspective is not necessarily universally shared.

We know there are 'Moms' who aren't so easily accomodating and easily accepting of these trials. Not because they don't want to but rather because it's still somewhat uncharted waters for many. Specially those who have not been openly exposed to these circumstances with regularity. It's pretty easy for them to relay their own fears and anxieties and project that unto their litters. Their DNA's just isn't built that way.

That's the task I believe Viking has to deal with right now. While I agree with BluesFairy's take that now is the time to take control of the situation with his fiancee (shared parenting), I can see how this can still be a challenging experience for anyone to go through.

Balance is always key....

--------------------------

Ellis Island (conversely Angel Island in the west), yes. I enjoyed the reading the history of it while my wife and I stayed in Manhattan last year.

[KenC]

Viking,
My suggestion is to try and reason with her.  Do not be confrontational, but talk to her about her son being a man now.  Ask her to talk to him and see what his preferences are for the upcoming trips.  She needs to learn that it is OK to be there for him but only if he wants her to be there.  Try and explain that it is better for her son to let him act more independent.  Good luck with that!    But seriously, make the debate between him and her without you being in the middle.

Olga,
Your childhood seems so idyllic from your post.  It is no wonder that you turned out so sweet.  I, on the other hand have the same argument in reverse. 

GQ and others,
I know it is a bit off topic, but I love hearing these stories!  Like the one where my great grandpops and his bro got into two different lines on Ellis Island and ended up with two different last names!  Neither of which was correct but derivatives of WHERE they were from, not WHO they were.
KenC

[groovlstk]

Viking, since your fiancee will be arriving several months prior to her son, why don't you tell her you'll make a decision on this after she has experienced the journey herself, when she'll better know what to be concerned about?

Right now she's probably worried about stuff which she'll understand is no big deal when she makes the trip to the US. In addition to the overly protective mother thing, many people from the FSU have limited travel experience. Even the trips many do to resorts in Egypt and Turkey are done via charter, so they travel with friends and groups who speak their language.

I think after she experiences it for herself she'll realize the biggest issues are boredom and fatigue.  

[Doll]

Guys, it is not a big deal if the mother meets her son in the airport. Relax.

[groovlstk]

Guys, it is not a big deal if the mother meets her son in the airport. Relax.

I don't think the OP is worried about a simple meeting, it's the few thousand $$ he'll have to cough up (in addition to the $ for the son's airline ticket) just to ease her mind. While I think most people agree you need to have a sound financial standing to go through with all this, there's no reason to throw money away frivolously. When she arrives Viking will be providing for her, paying USCIS fees when he files for AOS, and then paying for the son's transportation and ultimately taking on another person to support. It's a pretty hefty burden and unless he's very wealthy, I can sympathize with his concerns.

[OlgaH]

Olga,
Your childhood seems so idyllic from your post.  It is no wonder that you turned out so sweet.  I, on the other hand have the same argument in reverse.  

Thanks Ken,

I would say so idyllic as only a "little troublemaker-traveler-naturalist" can have   My mother and I still laugh till our tears when we recall how she was trying to get me from under the bed with a broom and my grandfather was counting "score is 2-0 in favor of Olga!" or when I drowned my new clothes including my new shoes in the river and came home in my panties and some other cases including my granny's favorite salad bowl full of leeches  

_______________________________________________
I left my mother's home when I was 16 y.o. I think a 20 y.o. guy after the army service can be self-reliant    

[KenC]

Guys, it is not a big deal if the mother meets her son in the airport. Relax.

Doll,
Meeting him at the airport is fine, no problem, but the mother wants to fly back to the fsu, hold his hand through the visa interview and then fly with him to the US.  A little over board for a 20 yo former soldier, don't ya think?
KenC

[Doll]

I don't think the OP is worried about a simple meeting, it's the few thousand $$ he'll have to cough up (in addition to the $ for the son's airline ticket) just to ease her mind. While I think most people agree you need to have a sound financial standing to go through with all this, there's no reason to throw money away frivolously. When she arrives Viking will be providing for her, paying USCIS fees when he files for AOS, and then paying for the son's transportation and ultimately taking on another person to support. It's a pretty hefty burden and unless he's very wealthy, I can sympathize with his concerns.

I don't think the OP talked about it at all.

[Doll]

Doll,
Meeting him at the airport is fine, no problem, but the mother wants to fly back to the fsu, hold his hand through the visa interview and then fly with him to the US.  A little over board for a 20 yo former soldier, don't ya think?
KenC

No, of you know what it is to get visa in Russia.
I would do same.

[groovlstk]

I don't think the OP talked about it at all.

Sure he did:

And thank you for bringing up expenses. I did not want to, for fear that others may think that I am just trying to save money. But all this flying around can be expensive and those dollars can be used for a better purpose. She also wants me to join her for her initial flight to NY. This may be a compromise, as I dont have a real issue with it. But that is 3 tickets ( one RT for me and one, one way for her) and then a few months later 3 more. That is a lot for me.

[Doll]

Sure he did:

Look- who started the thread.