Meeting with a Pro-Dater. My Story.

[I/O]

I was just addressing it from the foreign guy angle.

Which is my point, if the locals (in some cases) can’t and don’t spot it, don’t kid yourself the foreigner, no matter how sharp he is, will have it all sorted either, not by a long chalk.

From what I know, a typical Russian dude will spend his last ruble to make his gf happy.

Stop reading crap on websites and spend time on the ground. That’s a bunch of BS we have been fed for years. Ain’t so, ain’t even close for the most part.

Gator: My MO was to ask her (as I did my now wife the first time I visited her) what restaurants are available, which she recommends and why. I requested 3 choices. Without spelling out, it was made abundantly clear *I* would be making the choice. Point is, there are ways to handle these things without creating a fuss.

[Misha]

From what I know, a typical Russian dude will spend his last ruble to make his gf happy.

I don't buy this. It is IMO the tales that some RW tell foreign men to make them open their wallets  :evil: I will have to track it down. A while back I read an article in Russian about an "Алфонс" who would start dating women, move in with them, and then empty out their apartments (including used lipstick that he would find some way of selling). He did not even buy any of the women he robbed as much as a wilted flower and he wasn't that attractive. If RW really needed men to spend extravagantly, he would never have been so successful in ripping off a number of women, many of whom still said they were in love with him after he stole from them. 

It was $650 IIRC.  Shame on me for not realizing there were no prices listed in the menu!  The restaurant didn't publicize the prices nor DID I ASK.  Shame on me, shut up, pay the bill and learn to ask in the future.
KenC

In Russia, this can't even be used as an excuse based on all the restaurants that I have visited: they invariably had a menu at the front door with all the prices listed. Even if the guy knows no Russian, he should still be able to figure out what the prices will be like at any given restaurant.

[KenC]

Misha,
Just for clarification, there were NO prices listed in the menus given to customers and there were NO prices listed on the menus on display for guests entering either.  You had to ask to know how much anything was.  We didn't as I am sure most didn't ask.
KenC

[KenC]

Which is my point, if the locals (in some cases) can’t and don’t spot it, don’t kid yourself the foreigner, no matter how sharp he is, will have it all sorted either, not by a long chalk.
Stop reading crap on websites and spend time on the ground. That’s a bunch of BS we have been fed for years. Ain’t so, ain’t even close for the most part.

Gator: My MO was to ask her (as I did my now wife the first time I visited her) what restaurants are available, which she recommends and why. I requested 3 choices. Without spelling out, it was made abundantly clear *I* would be making the choice. Point is, there are ways to handle these things without creating a fuss.

I/O,
I readily admit my info on RM's dating habits is all second hand. 

Good way to handle input/final decision on where to dine too.  I remember on my trip to Moscow, I ran a little short on available funds one day and had to wait until the next day to get more funds transferred for my use.  We had been living quite high on the hog (my choice totally) but I miscalculated and did not consider the 25% tax on my hotel expenses.  Any way, I told Lena that we needed to take it down a notch financially until I corrected the problem.  She didn't bat an eye and suggested a very reasonable (cheap) place to eat that night.  How a woman reacts to a more humble plan tells a lot more about her character than her reaction to extravagant ones.
KenC

[Sculpto]

I have a question for Miss FSU. 

I had some experience with an agency in Odessa and other nearby cities that lists girls on HRB/RLM/Zolushka and Anastasia and maybe other big sites.  They claim to be a "christian" agency, yet, they come off as a total scam.  I made friends with one girl who broke all the agency rules, got into direct contact with me outside the agency and then helped me when I was in Odessa.  Later, she felt guilty and quit and told me about the whole scam.  Orchid Agency.

I have been trying to develop evidence and proof about this agency.  They do not have a site of their own and only function through big sites.  They have hundreds of girls (if not more), including several who have been discussed here in the forum in other scam threads.

Do you know this agency and have anything to comment about them?  Stirlitz can answer also if he wants.

[Sculpto]

KenC: It is not only the foreigners they play the game with. Go spend time and look, you’ll see it…………iffffffffff you spend enough time observing. AJ touched on it, different game now, same basics but much more sophisticated. Plenty of the local boys get shafted so the hapless foreigner is canon fodder.

I think the definition most are concerned about is the “serial” pro-dater.

I/O is right.  I personally think the problem begins with rich older RM who go out of their way to spoil girls with extravagant gifts.  I have heard of girls getting cars and apartments being fairly common.  These kinds of stories get around fast and then everyone wants that kind of "fairy tale".  What girl doesn't want a rich handsome prince to sweep her away?

So, how do you draw the line between what truly is a pro-dater and someone who is just full of fantasy ideas about what defines a "Good man"?

[Misha]

I have heard of girls getting cars and apartments being fairly common.

Sorry, but how exactly do you define "fairly often." I have yet to meet any woman in Russia in these past 15 or so years who has received either a car or an apartment. Besides, if I met a woman who told me such a story, I would have told her then and there that if she was not happy with me she is more than free to go chase some pipe dream. More power to her if she does find the mythical Russian Oligarch willing to buy her a car.

[I/O]

I/O,
I readily admit my info on RM's dating habits is all second hand. 

I’ll prolly get myself into a crap load of hot water here but to hell with it. There is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much BS preached regarding Russian dating habits. Rich old Russian men spoiling the pool and rah rah. Maybe, but it doesn’t form the crux of the issue.

The basic issue is RW are every bit as materialistic as their western sisters and then some. They will test your financial ability, every single one of them.  “Oh my RW is a good girl, she wouldn’t do that”, BS, they will, they do and they’ll do it with much more brutality than their western sisters will. You probably won’t even understand the language (two meanings) whilst they are doing it. The key will be and IMO this is the key to the whole deal is how they react if and when you enforce another approach. (IE: Ken’s comment to Lena and her reaction).

RM dating habits are not near as extreme as all the BS we read on websites or on forums for that matter either. The basics are the basics, some situations are dating for a future, some are dating for a lay and some are both. Sound familiar? RM certainly do NOT spend their last kopek but they will and often do go to greater lengths in the charming process.

The big difference now is the financial parity. For the most part the local boys can compete and in many cases well and truly outgun the westerner. My last trip to Russia demonstrated it very clearly. Nowhere in any of 4 significant cities did I see a marriage agency. Older ones I had seen before were closed and gone. The dynamics have completely changed. You can see it, you can sense it and almost feel it.

I don’t believe what I saw has anything to do with any perceived economic downturn in the west or the westerners financial ability to come visit. I think it is singularly related to improvement in Russia. I’ve said before, I can’t speak for Ukraine because I haven’t been there for some time, although funnily enough, I was asked a few questions by Russian boys who were obviously flirting with the idea of going there for a f**k fest. That in and of itself is a very significant change.

If I were starting again now, first things first, I wouldn’t but if I did have a complete brain fart and decide to go again, it would only be after a lot of pre sifting or a lot of time on the ground. It is so interesting to be in the situation again and not be “looking” as it were, it is just so revealing.  I’d dare anyone to be of the opinion they are smart enough to eliminate the risk of being taken for a ride.

[Sculpto]

Sorry, but how exactly do you define "fairly often." I have yet to meet any woman in Russia in these past 15 or so years who has received either a car or an apartment. Besides, if I met a woman who told me such a story, I would have told her then and there that if she was not happy with me she is more than free to go chase some pipe dream. More power to her if she does find the mythical Russian Oligarch willing to buy her a car.

I have encountered a couple of girls who made claims on mamba.. and I have heard about it via other reliable sources.  it happens.. not to everyone and probably to the prettiest girls..

I know in real life one such girl.. she is modest about it.. doesn't ask for stuff.. but the rich married guy she dates is VERY generous... she doesn't consider it a serious relationship, but, enjoys her time with him and LOVES the gifts.

Those kinds of women ARE NOT often on dating sites and certainly not on agency sites.  They ARE in nightclubs and other venues where they have the chance to meet guys with big wallets.

[Misha]

I have encountered a couple of girls who made claims on mamba..

They could have been playing you.

and I have heard about it via other reliable sources.

Let me guess, the friend of a friend of a friend aka an urban legend 

it happens.. not to everyone and probably to the prettiest girls...

Sure, if it does happen, it will be the one in 1 million occurrence. A rich RM is more likely to sponsor an attractive woman, but even then the going rate will still be a lot less than an apartment  :evil:

I know in real life one such girl.. she is modest about it.. doesn't ask for stuff.. but the rich married guy she dates is VERY generous... she doesn't consider it a serious relationship, but, enjoys her time with him and LOVES the gifts.

Still is not an apartment. I would wager that the rich guy is married. I would have told such woman to go take a long hike. There are many women who prefer to be the number one woman in a man's life as opposed to the lover of a married man who gives gifts.

Those kinds of women ARE NOT often on dating sites and certainly not on agency sites. 

I disagree. You can easily find many women on mamba who are looking for sponsors and they are pretty open about it, often specifying how much per month they want  :evil:

Fortunately, most women do not seek a "sponsor" and most women that I met do not expect expensive gifts. If anything I was the one being pursued much of the time When I was single in Russia, I had a few women in cafes and bars insist on enterring their phone numbers in my cell phone and asking me to call them. And, it was my wife who decided that I would be hers, gifts or no gifts. Sure she wanted a good man and stability, but she was not interested in a sugar daddy.

[Sculpto]

They could have been playing you.

maybe, or it could be true.

Let me guess, the friend of a friend of a friend aka an urban legend 

No, someone I know in real life. 

Sure, if it does happen, it will be the one in 1 million occurrence. A rich RM is more likely to sponsor an attractive woman, but even then the going rate will still be a lot less than an apartment  :evil:

1 in a million?  I don't think so.. on the contrary.  Take a walk in certain parts of Moscow.  The "kept" women are OBVIOUS.

They could have been playing you.

maybe, or it could be true.

Let me guess, the friend of a friend of a friend aka an urban legend 

No, someone I know in real life. 

Still is not an apartment. I would wager that the rich guy is married. I would have told such woman to go take a long hike. There are many women who prefer to be the number one woman in a man's life as opposed to the lover of a married man who gives gifts.

Of course there are, I never said the girls seeking sponsors are a majority.  What I am saying is they exist in higher numbers than are usually recognized.

I disagree. You can easily find many women on mamba who are looking for sponsors and they are pretty open about it, often specifying how much per month they want  :evil:

Sure, about 1 out of 4 from my observations.

Fortunately, most women do not seek a "sponsor" and most women that I met do not expect expensive gifts. If anything I was the one being pursued much of the time When I was single in Russia, I had a few women in cafes and bars insist on enterring their phone numbers in my cell phone and asking me to call them. And, it was my wife who decided that I would be hers, gifts or no gifts. Sure she wanted a good man and stability, but she was not interested in a sugar daddy.

Yet, what girl doesn't appreciate expensive gifts?  Asking for them and demanding them or not doesn't impact whether or not they like them or wish to have them but are too modest to express it.  Some girls might never speak up but reject a guy for some other excuse if he doesn't provide.  Key word, provide.  If he can provide gifts he can provide a good quality life and is thus a good man.  I don't say that is ALWAYS the case, but, it goes on often and is something most of us going over there will not clearly understand or be able to sense the nuances involved.

[Mir]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0613/p06s06-woeu.html

[Misha]

1 in a million?  I don't think so.. on the contrary.  Take a walk in certain parts of Moscow.  The "kept" women are OBVIOUS.

Kept women who were gifted cars and apartments? Again, will be quite rare. Sure, the women who are sponsored may be given a monthly stipend/salary, but that is still a far cry from an apartment in Moscow. Besides, Moscow is not Russia.

Of course there are, I never said the girls seeking sponsors are a majority.  What I am saying is they exist in higher numbers than are usually recognized.

Easily recognized, easily avoided.

Sure, about 1 out of 4 from my observations.

Not what I observed when dating. I somehow doubt that things have changed so drastically in 4 years.

Yet, what girl doesn't appreciate expensive gifts?

So what is your point? I appreciate expensive gifts as well, but I don't expect them either Appreciating gifts and choosing a man based on gifts given (or not given) are two entirely different things.

Key word, provide.  If he can provide gifts he can provide a good quality life and is thus a good man.

Different women have different definitions when it comes to "providing" and some women are smart enough to understand that a man who can provide is not necessarily a good man 

I don't say that is ALWAYS the case, but, it goes on often and is something most of us going over there will not clearly understand or be able to sense the nuances involved.

I would concur that old men running after 20-year-old women will certainly have problem understanding nuances and are more likely to be desperately spending money in the hopes of convincing a pretty young thing that they are "providers." I wager that many such men will cry pro-dater wolf when the young women take their gifts and money and then dump them....

[Gator]

I have heard of girls getting cars and apartments being fairly common.

 

Sorry, but how exactly do you define "fairly often." I have yet to meet any woman in Russia in these past 15 or so years who has received either a car or an apartment.

I don’t believe it is fairly common, yet it happens.  I believe it happens more frequently if the boyfriend is married.   

Proof? 

Case No. 1 - I gave my future wife a car on her birthday in our second year of dating.  We were not dating others, yet I was not ready to marry or even start the K-1 application.   A Lada, nothing special, however a car nonetheless.  Feel free to criticize me, yet I would do it again.   

BTW, over our years of dating in Moscow,  I probably saved  $2000-3000 in taxi fees, and she sold it for only $3500 less than what I paid for it when she left Russia for the US.  Of course, she kept the money.   

Case No. 2 - In the year+ when my future wife and I were no longer dating, I had a serious girlfriend and was thinking about a k-1.  She asked me for a car.  i did not buy her a car, and we parted (not just because of the car).  In a followup conversation, she claimed to have received a Chevy.  I knew that one RM had the hots for her, so I assume he was the benefactor and was hitting on her while we were dating.  A year later she contacted me to get back together.  Evidently the RM had his way and moved on.  Contrary to what one would expect, this woman was over 40-yo.  Incredible woman, however.

[Misha]

Proof? 

Case No. 1 - I gave my future wife a car on her birthday in our second year of dating. 

A car is still not an apartment  And, yes, I have heard of other cases of foreign men given RW cars and other extravagent gifts. However, the question is whether RW across Moscow are being showered with gifts of cars and apartments. I don't buy it.

[Boethius]

It is quite common in Ukraine for mistresses to be kept in apartments, and even to receive cars, but typically, they don't own the apartments.  However, this is typically a "proletarian" attitude, a holdover from the FSU, and the women haven't manipulated the men in any way.  The scamming the OP described could not be pulled on most local men.  Their attitude toward women is different.

Once in Moscow, I saw a couple in their thirties stopped in front of a restaurant, a nice, fairly normal looking restaurant, certainly not a dive.  "I don't want to eat in that cheap restaurant."  the woman stated.  The guy told her if she wanted a f***, she could get it from the crutches of one of the nearby beggars.   He then turned around, hailed a cab and left her standing on the street.  I am fairly certain she regretted opening her mouth.

[BillyB]

  "I don't want to eat in that cheap restaurant."  Translation: "Buy me an expensive dinner."

 The guy told her if she wanted a f***, she could get it from the crutches of one of the nearby beggars.  Translation: "No."

[Miss FSU]

2012isFiction i didn't deal with any agencies outside kiev

Interesting conversation you have.
You should now understand 1 thing. Here the woman's best age considered to be shorter then man's. So in this perioud its highly recomended to use evry moment and man you have Any experiensed woman will advice her daughter to think not only about feelings but also about material basics of the relationship.

What I mean is that if the woman except expensive gifts and doesn't return them after relationship finished, it doesn't neccesary make her a prodater, that means that she just wants to make sure she didn't spend this relationship "in vain".

It would be highly recomended for some men before posting any of prodaters get through the culture of the country as well. Local men would in most of the cases just complain to the friends about what a bitch she is, and so on and wouldnt't go further than that.

I'm also curious if it would happen in your country, lets leave the taxi-driver and terp,the gal would just lead you through expensive shops, restourants and then makes some hints about new computer or smth of the sort. Would you also post it in pro-dater section, with all the details including the post adress? Is it safe or ligal to do so? Or is there any risk to deal with police after all?

[Stirlitz]

Miss FSU has to realize that most (if not all!) of the men complaining about professional daters are losers with a respective attitude. A man who is not one would not attract pro-daters and even if he has a case like many described above he would not be worried about it so much as to discuss it with someone, post on the Internet, etc. But losers always look for someone to blame for their stupidity and blunders other than themselves.

[valence]

2012isFiction I'm also curious if it would happen in your country, lets leave the taxi-driver and terp,the gal would just lead you through expensive shops, restourants and then makes some hints about new computer or smth of the sort. Would you also post it in pro-dater section, with all the details including the post adress? Is it safe or ligal to do so? Or is there any risk to deal with police after all?

The scenario you describe would not happen in their own countries for three reasons:  [1] In a western country the guy couldn't even dream of attracting an attractive younger woman.  or hardly even one his own age.  and [2] as soon as the guy started complaining everybody would know he's a loser and tell him to take a hike. and  [3] being that the guy and girl are both local to the same country, the girl's brothers would come around and whip the guy's ass into a pulp.

[Gator]

"I don't want to eat in that cheap restaurant."  the woman stated.  The guy told her if she wanted a f***, she could get it from the crutches of one of the nearby beggars.   He then turned around, hailed a cab and left her standing on the street.  I am fairly certain she regretted opening her mouth.

 

This raises a question perhaps Miss FSU can answer.  What does the pro-dater do if an AM refuses to go to expensive restaurants, does not take her shopping, etc.?  Does she hail a cab?

Perhaps the RM and RW in Boethius’s story had dated before.  However, let us assume this is their first date as would happen with a RW and AM. 

Yes, she sounds like a materialistic, arrogant bytch.  However, she should not regret opening her mouth.   He sounds like a crude, chauvinistic pig, not willing to discuss the issue.  Thus, she should be as happy as he is to have parted from such a mismatch .

It would have been a big "turn off" if a woman said that to me.  Assuming it was our first meeting, I would not hail a cab but ask her why she felt that way.  Misunderstandings happen frequently between RW and AM.  If her explanation suggested she expected a man to cater to her, I would say she is dating the wrong man.   Although it is probably hopeless,  I would then add, “I am dining here and you are welcome to join me, but don’t expect me to take you shopping later.” 

Does she walk away?  Many women respect a man who sets reasonable limits, even if short of her goal, far more than a man who caters to her every whim.  If she finds me a little interesting, I guess she stays.  However, if her gig is to fleece fantasizing AM, she will walk away and go to bed with her RM boyfriend. 

[Misha]

Any experiensed woman will advice her daughter to think not only about feelings but also about material basics of the relationship.

Which is why you always want to meet a woman's attitude. You must meet with the mother, and if she has such an attitude, you should take a very hard and long look at the daughter to make sure she does not share her daughter's worldview.

I'm also curious if it would happen in your country, lets leave the taxi-driver and terp,the gal would just lead you through expensive shops, restourants and then makes some hints about new computer or smth of the sort.

IMHO only a desparate idiot would buy a woman that he just met a computer and most women would thus not make such stupid hints as they would be seen as greedy fools. And, for the record, the women that I dated in Russia would not have done this either. Had they hinted while dating that they would have wanted me to buy them a computer or anything else, I would have dumped them then and there.

[Misha]

He sounds like a crude, chauvinistic pig, not willing to discuss the issue. 

No, he sounds to me like a RM who understands that he can easily find another date. This account is much more realistic to me than all the men in Moscow buying young women apartments and showering them with expensive gifts.

[Jooky]

Any experiensed woman will advice her daughter to think not only about feelings but also about material basics of the relationship.

Which is why you always want to meet a woman's attitude. You must meet with the mother, and if she has such an attitude, you should take a very hard and long look at the daughter to make sure she does not share her daughter's worldview.

You talked about women seeking 'stability' above, as do many men on this forum. What's the difference between 'stability' and the 'material basics of a relationship'?

Seems to be the same thing to me.  

PS: I know Russian women whose boyfriends / lovers have bought them apartments. Nobody said this happens all the time, but it does happen. Russian men buying their girlfriends a car or some other expensive gift happens quite a bit.

[Misha]

PS: I know Russian women whose boyfriends / lovers have bought them apartments. Nobody said this happens all the time, but it does happen. Russian men buying their girlfriends a car or some other expensive gift happens quite a bit.

Sorry, but the men here seem to confuse a man buying an apartment that he will then let his gf live in with a man buying a woman an apartment. These are two very distinct things. In the first case, the man keeps the apartment when he dumps her and will have his next gf move in when he tires of the first. Does the first happen in Russia? Sure, why not. The man buys an apartment, he can sell it, and the rent he does not collect is equivalent to what he would pay to sponsor a woman. As to RM buying their gf apartments that will be registered in their gf's names, that would be rarer than hen's teeth.