Should men seek advice from RWD?

[Turboguy]

We are discussing if we should tell a woman we are meeting for the first time that we are meeting with other women on the same trip we are meeting them!   One thought that comes to my mind is, how many of us ask the woman if she is corresponding and meeting with other men before our first meeting?   I have a feeling it is very rare for the men to do that.  I rarely asked anyone.  I always assumed they were and felt usually that it was proper. 

My wife and I discussed this before we met for the first time.  As I recall it just sort of came up in conversation.   

I would say that at most 25 percent of the women I met asked me.  I was always honest if they asked but to me if they want to know they should ask.  If they didn't ask I saw no reason to share that information and I can't see that in doing so I was being deceptive.   I always felt they assumed I was. 

To me it seems that there is a time to search hard for the right woman and a time to be exclusive with her and in many cases the first needs to come before the second.

[Ade]

We are discussing if we should tell a woman we are meeting for the first time that we are meeting with other women on the same trip we are meeting them!   One thought that comes to my mind is, how many of us ask the woman if she is corresponding and meeting with other men before our first meeting?   I have a feeling it is very rare for the men to do that.  I rarely asked anyone.  I always assumed they were and felt usually that it was proper. 

My wife and I discussed this before we met for the first time.  As I recall it just sort of came up in conversation.   

I would say that at most 25 percent of the women I met asked me.  I was always honest if they asked but to me if they want to know they should ask.  If they didn't ask I saw no reason to share that information and I can't see that in doing so I was being deceptive.   I always felt they assumed I was. 

To me it seems that there is a time to search hard for the right woman and a time to be exclusive with her and in many cases the first needs to come before the second.

Yes, I asked and I also told her that until I knew if she and I were going to work out I would be exclusive with her and yes, this was before we met.

Some guys will think this is silly but I had no plan on spending 6+ months twiddling my thumbs before we met and she wasn't a "MOB agency girl" either. If she had been or if I couldn't have visited for an extended length of time things might have been different. Having said that, I probably wouldn't have visited an "agency girl" in the first place and I doubt I would have visited if I were limited to a 6+ months between trips.

[Turboguy]

SJ,   You have me curious how many women you had to go through to meet your wife?   

My point in asking is if someone met their wife as one of the first women they met thay might be more oriented towards a WOVO and not to meeting a lot of women trying to find the right one.   In which case being more open and volunteering information that she was the only one you were meeting might make more sense.  I don't believe in being dishonest in any way but I never felt a need to volunteer that information if they didn't ask and never felt it was being deceptive in not disclosing that if they didn't ask.   If a woman asked I was quite open about what I was doing.

My wife and I did discuss things and I really went to meet her with the hopes that she was going to be the one.   I had enough first meetings with women who I thought were going to be the one that I was hesitant to commit before a first meeting.   For my general search before meeting her I had stopped writing to any new women.   I had stopped writing to most of the women who were so so in my feelings that they could be the right one.  I had a couple that I told her I would maintain communication with until our meeting and if it went well would stop writing at that time which is what I did.  I did omit telling her one thing and that was that I was going on one of Jack's tours with my son mainly in the hopes that my sone would find a good woman.  I really planned just to go through the motions on the tour and my first trip to meet my wife was scheduled for two weeks later.   Of course I was posting a TR on RWD and did not know she was reading RWD at the time so I didn't do a very good job of hiding it from her.   My reason for not being open about it was not to worry her and because I felt she was so special and the woman I wanted to end up with and did not want her to worry or to be upset with me.  It could have been a real disaster and I guess the moral to that might be that it is better never to lie or to hide things. 

In my early days of my searching I made lots of trips, took lots of big agency tours and wrote stacks of snail mail letters and met very few women who were really sincere.  I made a number of trips to visit one woman and rarely had it work out.   I always seemed to end up with women who were scammers, serial daters, a few who were borderline crazy or just no chemistry.  When you waste a lot of trips doing a WOVO seems much less productive.   I always liked to spend enough time with a woman to get to know them but always tried to meet 3-4 women per trip.  Most never asked if I was meeting others.  If they did ask I told them and never had any that were not willing to meet me because of it.

[Ade]

SJ,   You have me curious how many women you had to go through to meet your wife?   

Well, I guess I have to ask you to define "had to go through" and from when do we start counting exactly and do we count all women, all Russian women or just all foreign women or maybe all women met through the medium of the internet?

If you mean how many Russian women I had to go to Russia to meet in person before I finally met my wife, I'd have to say none as she was the first Russian woman in Russia (FWIW, my ex-wife was the first Norwegian woman I'd ever dated too). However, if you mean how many women in total I had to talk to, mail, meet, and sometimes have relationships with in total I'd have to say I've lost count. And yes, I've had several disasters in my time where I thought we were a perfect match while talking on the net only for it to fall flat when we met face to face so I know how it can be to have high expectations dashed. 

Even so, I still prefer the "invest more effort communicating with one beforehand" WOVO approach rather than the blunderbuss WMVM method; I honestly believe that if you are careful selecting the "one" and quickly move on when you find that they aren't compatible, you can increase your chances rather than taking pot luck with a bunch of women you've hardly spent any time communicating with. Of course, you could always try the investment with many at the same time but to be honest, I've never been able to focus deeply on more than one woman at a time. These principles are the same whether the women live in the same city or are in deepest Siberia.

The WOVO is a little misnomer anyway. These days, with a laptop, a mobile phone and a little cash in your pocket there would be no reason why someone couldn't find and meet another woman while there if the woman he goes to visit turns out to be incompatible.

FWIW, if someone thinks that what they are doing is totally okay, I see no reason not to volunteer the information to the women they will meet. But we both know that the only reason to hide it would be because they knew there was a chance that the women would not like it, and what does that say about the man?

[BC]

Had to keep my eyes open and open my mouth at the right moment.

[KenC]

FWIW, if someone thinks that what they are doing is totally okay, I see no reason not to volunteer the information to the women they will meet. But we both know that the only reason to hide it would be because they knew there was a chance that the women would not like it, and what does that say about the man?

SJ,
That he has a different opinion than you?  Seriously, you appear to be a one woman at a time man, and that is great for you.  I also consider the fact that you live much closer to the fsu than most of us with much less less expense involved.  I would compare it to dating a woman a few states away here.  All very doable and I have done that too.

I don't think there is anything nefarious about going to meet multiple women that you have made contact with via the Net as long as no promises are made other than to meet and see what happens.  I think all the hub bub in this thread is a bit silly really.  It all boils down to when the guy is going to refine his desires down to a single lady.  You and others believe it is better to zero in on one main target before traveling to the fsu.  Great for you!  I am of the opinion that refining my interest in one woman would be better done in person face to face.  I also believe that I am not obligated to divulge very much to a woman that I plan to meet in a very casual setting without any further expectations other than to have the casual meeting to see if there is a future mutual interest in each other.

To throw more gas on this fire, I will also say that I see no harm in dating multiple women even on the second or third trip.  But if a man is going to continue down the road of nonexclusive dating, I agree that he has an obligation to explain to each woman that they are not exclusive because of the possibilities of heightened expectations. 
KenC

[RussianWind]

Why touchy?

Ooops. My spelling. Should be "touching".  

[BC]

To throw more gas on this fire, I will also say that I see no harm in dating multiple women even on the second or third trip.  But if a man is going to continue down the road of nonexclusive dating, I agree that he has an obligation to explain to each woman that they are not exclusive because of the possibilities of heightened expectations. 
KenC

Can't argue with that..  I've 'two timed' enough in the past to learn my lesson..

What's that FSU saying "Chase after two rabbits and you won't catch one" or something similar..

But if you must, go right ahead and learn.

[RussianWind]

What's that FSU saying "Chase after two rabbits and you won't catch one" or something similar..

It goes very well with VO & VM discussions.

[I/O]

The first question never addressed in these debates is which method is actually, in a numbers for numbers calculation, more successful? The second question is what percentage of either is successful. The VO guys tout their success and justifiably so, but they don’t tell how many “clanger” trips for the final so called success trip if they reach that stage and I don’t think very many do.

The VM guys beat their chests and tell us how “right” the idea is but very carefully, like the VO guys, avoid telling how many “clanger” trips they make. There are generally dismissive throw away lines which lack substance tossed in from both sides. The erroneous assumption is the VM method will eventually bring the mandatory success. Ain’t so.

The premise of the VO guys is the VM are ALL being deceptive which is crap if it is handled well. The downside is most don’t handle it well and most women are not that thrilled about the idea.

The premise of the VM guys is nothing serious can be developed before face to face contact which is an equal load of crap, if not more so than the argument of the VO guys. Pen friends meeting and marrying has been happening since long before any of our time. My parents being a case in point. Most of us would kill for the wonderful marriage they have held for 52 years and they will BOTH tell you they met with affair amount of anticipation. It certainly wasn’t any casual, let’s see if we like the colour of your eyes type meeting.

The VO guys for the most part are not comfortable juggling a number of women. I’ll address this personally and say I fit that group. Nevertheless, I have done it both at home and abroad many many times. At one point, I spent 6 months travelling and met new women every second day. Fun but futile if you look at it in the scheme of searching for a life partner which I was certainly not at that point. I have found that it always lead, at some point to my having to be less honest or more brutal than I would like, but that’s me. I don’t think you have to be particularly clever to fly the VM kite but I do think you need to be a particular personality.

The VM guys, from what I see in many of their posts in these types of threads are not capable of or patient enough to dig down well in letters etc. It is simply their personality. They can’t and or are not inclined to do so.

Cost efficiency is argued by one side whilst integrity is argued by the other and in case anyone hadn’t noticed (I’m sure they have), there is no real evidence to support either side of the argument. Some speculation and opinion. Therefore it all comes down to “pick your poison”.

Two points I can see is the VO guys need to acknowledge they can’t always get this right first up and the VM guys need to understand no matter how well they think they can disguise their other meetings, the women know.

Back to the original question, should guys seek advice here, IMO yes, however, if this thread were to be an example, the advice is very badly presented on both sides of this equation.

[KenC]

I/O,
The VO vs VM discussion has moved primarily to another thread in this same section, but here is my last post minus any chest thumping:

"How" you first meet matters not, but that you met the "right" person for YOU.

We all start with a blank slate and as I said before are open to communication with many others.  How everyone weeds through their possibilities is up to them.  But we ALL do weed through them at some point in time.

The "VO" people seem to think that the weeding should be done prior to traveling to the fsu and actually meeting face to face.  While the "VM" see an advantage of weeding through the possibilities face to face.  Whichever strategy one chooses is great if they find the right one.  The relationship is either half baked beforehand with an extended correspondence prior to meeting or it is developed after meeting face to face.  Where I think some people get their nose out of joint is if there is an extended correspondence to multiple women.  I would not think highly of anyone that would purposefully mislead many women into thinking they are their one and only.
KenC

[tim 360]

Can't argue with that..  I've 'two timed' enough in the past to learn my lesson..

What's that FSU saying "Chase after two rabbits and you won't catch one" or something similar..

But if you must, go right ahead and learn.

Here ya go BC,

If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one. [Russian, Za dvumya zaitsami pogonish'sya, ne odnogo ne poimaesh'.] 


 

[GQBlues]

The first question never addressed in these debates is which method is actually, in a numbers for numbers calculation, more successful? The second question is what percentage of either is successful. The VO guys tout their success and justifiably so, but they don’t tell how many “clanger” trips for the final so called success trip if they reach that stage and I don’t think very many do.

The VM guys beat their chests and tell us how “right” the idea is but very carefully, like the VO guys, avoid telling how many “clanger” trips they make. There are generally dismissive throw away lines which lack substance tossed in from both sides. The erroneous assumption is the VM method will eventually bring the mandatory success. Ain’t so.

The premise of the VO guys is the VM are ALL being deceptive which is crap if it is handled well. The downside is most don’t handle it well and most women are not that thrilled about the idea.

The premise of the VM guys is nothing serious can be developed before face to face contact which is an equal load of crap, if not more so than the argument of the VO guys. Pen friends meeting and marrying has been happening since long before any of our time. My parents being a case in point. Most of us would kill for the wonderful marriage they have held for 52 years and they will BOTH tell you they met with affair amount of anticipation. It certainly wasn’t any casual, let’s see if we like the colour of your eyes type meeting.

The VO guys for the most part are not comfortable juggling a number of women. I’ll address this personally and say I fit that group. Nevertheless, I have done it both at home and abroad many many times. At one point, I spent 6 months travelling and met new women every second day. Fun but futile if you look at it in the scheme of searching for a life partner which I was certainly not at that point. I have found that it always lead, at some point to my having to be less honest or more brutal than I would like, but that’s me. I don’t think you have to be particularly clever to fly the VM kite but I do think you need to be a particular personality.

The VM guys, from what I see in many of their posts in these types of threads are not capable of or patient enough to dig down well in letters etc. It is simply their personality. They can’t and or are not inclined to do so.

Cost efficiency is argued by one side whilst integrity is argued by the other and in case anyone hadn’t noticed (I’m sure they have), there is no real evidence to support either side of the argument. Some speculation and opinion. Therefore it all comes down to “pick your poison”.

Two points I can see is the VO guys need to acknowledge they can’t always get this right first up and the VM guys need to understand no matter how well they think they can disguise their other meetings, the women know.

Back to the original question, should guys seek advice here, IMO yes, however, if this thread were to be an example, the advice is very badly presented on both sides of this equation.

Well, I can't speak for the masses, VO/VM alike, but I was a VM and the none of presumptions you made above never even remotely came under my radar. Also, it matters little to me if there's a 99.9% chance of success that followed those who fell in love and committed to someone they never met in person because it was simply something I can never allow myself to be in.

I was a VM. I went into Russia the very first time for no other reason than to meet a number of women simply for the purpose of affording all of us a chance to meet in person BEFORE we can even determine if this is what any of us want to pursue.

I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating. The only promise I made was I will be travelling to Russia within 3 months' time from when I started my campaign. I gave each one an approximate calendar date when that would be.

In the interim, all I asked the women expressing interest in meeting me is make sure they fully understood, appreciate and willing to go through this. This will be a chance meeting void of any personal committment, promises or any suggestion of personal relations. Friendship was above and foremost. There was not one woman that did not know I plan on meeting a number of women in Russia. I encouraged women to explore, date and write to other men when I was asked about my feelings about it.
 
The geographical extent of the women stretched from Vladivostok to Ukraine. I treated each one of the women with equal dose of attention, appreciation and respect. I remember a period between Valentine's Day and Women's Day and the list I still had was upwards of 20+ women. Each one received a modest gift and flowers and a congratulatory note from me. Beyond that, all correspondence was well managed to insure it was as impersonal, yet interesting, as we can manage it to be.

When I made my mind up that this was what I was willing to do, I set aside ample resource for the expense. There were no expense made on credit. If I can't afford this without living above my means - I can't afford it.

Throughout this period, I read a lot about FSU, dating customs, travel info, societal and cultural norms,etc... In my doing so, I stumbled upon a message board once called RWG. I spent time speaking with FSU ex-pats living in my neck of the woods and AMs who were experienced in traveling to Russia, or those married to FSUWs and/or those who dated in Russia.

I knew I stood the probability I would lose candidates because of my plan, and I did. But, demanding as it was for me and the women, all things considered I thought it was the fairest, sanest and most beneficial approach that WE can all partake in.

I met these women in Moscow. I decided to stay in a hotel for the simple reason I thought the women coming from out of town will be treated better with the available amenities one can find in hotels. Each one of them had their own room reserved and paid for in their names for the given number of days they were to be in Moscow. I sent each one of them ample travel money for airfare and travel related expense (food, travel to/fro airport, etc..) to get to Moscow. Fortunately, 70% of the women were Moscow residents.

Despite all the tediousness and demands that went behind this plan, I was prepared to come home with the reality that this wasn't a venue available for me to meet someone that can be potentially someone I can 'date'. Had the trip proved to be unsuccessful in terms of meeting anyone to explore any possibilities with, I would've been content knowing I gave it an honest effort and held no bounds in affording all of us a chance. I would've been happy to continue my search/date at home and had my Russian experience be what it all was - an experience..

In the aftermath of that first trip, I followed it up with 4 supporting visits within the year. As an American, we are not afforded the luxury of having prolonged number of days off but I made time. The seriousness of what I was doing in my life, and hers, demanded the time necessary to meet the task I set out to do. IMV, there's no other way to do this than make the necessary time.

In the end, much of this experience is highly subjective. What works for one doesn't necessarily mean will work for another. So all the silly debates about approaches means nothing to the casual observer unless they have a full understanding of who they are and an appreciation of what needs to be done. Every plan is the right plan unless you phuck it up.
 

[KenC]

GQ,
And a very impressive plan it was. 
 
I don't remember, but did you meet your wife on this first trip?  IIRC, you did.
KenC

[GQBlues]

GQ,
And a very impressive plan it was.  
 I don't remember, but did you meet your wife on this first trip?  IIRC, you did.
KenC

Ken, yes. Nat was the second the to last woman I met on that trip. She was the only woman from Novosibirsk that I was writing to, too.

[OlgaH]

I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating.

That's what I really appreciate - honesty and openness!  

[I/O]

none of presumptions you made above never even remotely came under my radar.

Huh? The only presumption was to point out the futility of this entire discussion because there is no real evidence to support either argument, it all comes down to the individual.   

[dogspot]

In the end, much of this experience is highly subjective. What works for one doesn't necessarily mean will work for another. So all the silly debates about approaches means nothing to the casual observer unless they have a full understanding of who they are and an appreciation of what needs to be done. Every plan is the right plan unless you phuck it up.

Great post GQ. Thanks for sharing your story with us new folk. I think your last paragraph pretty well sums up this debate and your own experience sheds light on your POV. Personally, there is no way I would've put forth the effort to fly all those ladies in AND put them all up in hotels for the night. Bravo! I guess I am just a WOVO guy who will never be able to pull off a WMVM (and hopefully will never have to). 

[Faux Pas]

Here ya go BC,

If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one. [Russian, Za dvumya zaitsami pogonish'sya, ne odnogo ne poimaesh'.] 


 

As a young lad one I heard time and again is "one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" 

[OlgaH]

"one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" 

if you don't have a cage and extra traps 

[elliott]

I see no good reason for a mans to come all the way to Russia without having identified the woman he truly wants.

I see a great reason for a man to go all the way to Russia even without identifying the woman he truly wants:  to have a wonderfully enlightening trip by experiencing all aspects of another country.

why waste the time and money?

Waste?  I think visiting another country is not a waste, especially a country with as rich of a history as Russia.

[BC]

As a young lad one I heard time and again is "one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" 

Most lad's will have the pecker in hand and two bushes in his head..

 

[Faux Pas]

Most lad's will have the pecker in hand and two bushes in his head..

 

Heh heh..said in my best Ed McMahon "You are correct sir"

[BrightDawn]

I was a VM. I went into Russia the very first time for no other reason than to meet a number of women simply for the purpose of affording all of us a chance to meet in person BEFORE we can even determine if this is what any of us want to pursue.

I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating. The only promise I made was I will be travelling to Russia within 3 months' time from when I started my campaign. I gave each one an approximate calendar date when that would be.

In the interim, all I asked the women expressing interest in meeting me is make sure they fully understood, appreciate and willing to go through this. This will be a chance meeting void of any personal committment, promises or any suggestion of personal relations. Friendship was above and foremost. There was not one woman that did not know I plan on meeting a number of women in Russia. I encouraged women to explore, date and write to other men when I was asked about my feelings about it.

It's good to see after all the back and forth between GQ and KenC, that they both were in such complete agreement all along

[Mars]

I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating. The only promise I made was I will be travelling to Russia within 3 months' time from when I started my campaign. I gave each one an approximate calendar date when that would be.

In the interim, all I asked the women expressing interest in meeting me is make sure they fully understood, appreciate and willing to go through this. This will be a chance meeting void of any personal commitment, promises or any suggestion of personal relations. Friendship was above and foremost. There was not one woman that did not know I plan on meeting a number of women in Russia. I encouraged women to explore, date and write to other men when I was asked about my feelings about it.
 
The geographical extent of the women stretched from Vladivostok to Ukraine. I treated each one of the women with equal dose of attention, appreciation and respect. I remember a period between Valentine's Day and Women's Day and the list I still had was upwards of 20+ women. Each one received a modest gift and flowers and a congratulatory note from me. Beyond that, all correspondence was well managed to insure it was as impersonal, yet interesting, as we can manage it to be.

When I made my mind up that this was what I was willing to do, I set aside ample resource for the expense. There were no expense made on credit. If I can't afford this without living above my means - I can't afford it.

GQ you are missing your calling as a comedy writer.  This is one of the funniest stories I have read in a long time.

But then again, I am not sure if this is meant to be comedy or an application for Sainthood.

In any event, I do not believe a single word of it. 

A complete fabrication on your part in an attempt to back up your 'current' comments in this thread on the righteous way to go about this endeavor.