Dynamics of VM vs VO

[SMS60]

This is not an argument on which is right or wrong but an opinion of what happens when men do wmvm vs wovo trip. I will always lean towards wovo because of the “nature” of men and women. If someone takes a hammer and hits your toe you most likely will make some sort of sound. It’s “natural”. You reacted sub consciously. You also react sub consciously when interacting with the opposite sex (dating) even though some don’t think they do.

Both ways can be seen as unrealistic or irrational given the distance of international dating. I think the wovo gives the man better odds of finding a mate if that is what he is looking for. I say this because of the human dynamics that comes natural in some situations. Some men don’t think about why or how women react to his actions. It’s mostly about what feels good for him. Like the me,me,me syndrome. They cannot put themselves in her shoes.

I think some men look at finding a wife in the wrong way. They don’t look for the right signs in women. The most important sign is how interested she is in you for who you are. If a normal women thinks you are worth it she will show it and you will know it. Not much will get in her way to be by your side. But you must be one good catch and its more than looks to be one.

I think a woman who forgoes a relationship because the man is visiting more than one women would be a keeper for most men.  First she decided the vm man was not worth it (why?). She has self respect and knows what she deserves. The mans actions relayed a message to the women which ”naturally” did not register well. No interest in this dude. The vm guy comes across as the player type even though he probably is not. Some men will say she is insecure, ect but she is doing what is “natural” to attract the right mate.

My opinion is the women who are scared away by a vm man are the good girls. They would make fine companions. Their actions give you a taste of how they look at relationships. They have a good grasp of who they are and what they want.

[kievstar]

There is always exceptions but VM or VO will work for most men.  But once you meet the "one" you will not want to visit another.  For example say you go to meet 5 women. 1st two meetings no chemistry.  Third meeting great chemistry you should cancel meeting the 4th and 5th girl.  If you do not, than how great was the third girl really?

5 years ago the dating scene was different but women do not like being second choice.  A desperate or not serious woman maybe ok with this.  But do you want a desperate or not serious woman?

[Gator]

My opinion is the women who are scared away by a vm man are the good girls. They would make fine companions. Their actions give you a taste of how they look at relationships. They have a good grasp of who they are and what they want.

I hope you are correct when you make your first trip. 

Remember she also has a choice, and while you may wish to become more serious, her feelings could differ. 

If you take the VO route, I suggest that you have several hours of telephone calls before you decide to make the trip.

[JR]

Dude, how many trips have you made? Your little box says none...you make a lot of pat statements about the nature of men and women without anything of substance behind what you are saying.

I won't say you are wrong because there is no "right" way. But can't help but think that after your first trip you may sing a slightly different tune.

The few women I feel could become "something more" are the ones who don't even flinch when I tell them I am meeting more than one woman. These are the ones I find to be smart, confident and savvy. The really smooth ones don't even bring it up, they just glide right over it. And I don't bring it up either. I expect them to be dating other men, especially local. Why should they sit at home all the time waiting for some Keyboard Romeo to fly half way around the world to have a first date with them?

I agree with kievstar on this. Visit many but once you find that gem stop all other meetings.

[SMS60]

Some of you men crack me up. I think a good dose of Dukemaxwell is needed every now and then.

My trips, my relationship status, my weight, my height, color of my shoes, ect. Has nothing to do with the subject I was talking about.


The point I was trying to make is about the women on the other end. Her actions and what they say about her.

This has nothing to do about the jet setting men. They are irrelevent at the moment.

[Turboguy]

My opinion is the women who are scared away by a vm man are the good girls. They would make fine companions. Their actions give you a taste of how they look at relationships. They have a good grasp of who they are and what they want.

Perhaps if you made about a dozen failed WOVO trips you might change your mind.   Perhaps the women who are scared away by a vm man are the good ones or perhaps they are the insecure ones who have a lack of self confidence.   Sometimes a little competition can bring out the best in someone.   If she sees you as a really good catch, knowing if she wants you she needs to work at it might be a really good thing.   

[SMS60]

If she sees you as a really good catch, knowing if she wants you she needs to work at it might be a really good thing.  

TB

This is part of the point I was trying to discuss. There are so many varibles and personalities it comes down to generalizations again.

But, Will she see you as a good catch if you are visiting 5 women in 2 weeks?? She might look at you as a loser also? She cant get to know you in a few days to know if you are a good catch? A smart woman knows this.

[Turboguy]

It always seemed to me that I could know more about a woman in the first few hours of face to face time than I could in months of letters and/or phone calls. 

One of the last women I met was someone I had written to for several years.  She always seemed wonderful.   She had told me about being married to an abusive man and having to move to a different city to escape him and about being beaten very badly.   I felt sympathy for her.  She wrote very loving letters full of romance and promise.   Twenty minutes after we met she asked me what I like to drink.  I told her coffee, coca-cola and water.   I asked what she liked to drink.  She answered beer, champagne and vodka.  That never came up in our letters.   She was one of the biggest alcoholics I ever met in my life.   Day one was 5 bottles of champage and a large number of beers up to the point where she passed out spilling her last beer on me.  I am not much of a drinker and really would not want to marry someone who was a heavy drinker. 

It is often said here that until you meet you are only pen pals.   I be live that and always felt the first meeting was to eliminate obvious stubling blocks and see if you had chemistry.   If all goes well then concentrate on her only and spend whatever time necessary to develop that relationship.   

I did make some trips to meet one women.   Most were disasters but a few were not.  Life is a gamble but we are gambling with limits on time and money.   It makes sense to me to make the best use of both.

[shakespear]

There is always exceptions but VM or VO will work for most men.  But once you meet the "one" you will not want to visit another.  For example say you go to meet 5 women. 1st two meetings no chemistry.  Third meeting great chemistry you should cancel meeting the 4th and 5th girl.  If you do not, than how great was the third girl really? 

How great was the third girl?  All you know for sure is she was better than girl 1 and 2.  You'll never really know great she really is until you meet girls 4 and 5.

I'm sorry but IMHO you're providing REALLY bad advice.  In fact you are encouraging a man to make what is the most fatal mistake in the WMVM strategy.  What if girls 4 or 5 have FANTASTIC chemistry with you?  If you are going to use a WMVM strategy, it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL that you meet each of the girls you decided to meet when you stepped off the airplane.

It is a fact that most men have a "pre-trip ranking" of ladies before they meet them.  Virtually without exception, that ranking changes significantly once actual face-to-face meetings take place.

No.  The best advice is to meet all 5 THEN make a determination which ladies you will continue to see and which will be eliminated from further consideration.   

[SMS60]

No.  The best advice is to meet all 5 THEN make a determination which ladies you will continue to see and which will be eliminated from further consideration.    

Shakespear

I want to try and keep this on track with the perspective from the womens point of view.

Yes, meet all 5. Then go have a beer and think about it. Ok, I choose #3. Things are on track so for. The man is doing the choosing. This is good. Ok, Now #3 must show her interest for him to continue. Buuuuttttttt hold on..... she rejects him after she gets a whiff of how many women he met in the last week. Shucks, on to #5.

If a man is the hunter. Many dont know the prey they are hunting. They have the clothes, guns, maps, ect. But know nothing about the prey. They havent even thought about it. When the guy choose #3. The last thing in his mind was her rejecting him because of his VM trip.

[Blues Fairy]

My opinion is the women who are scared away by a vm man are the good girls.

Or the really insecure ones.  If the woman is really confident of herself, she may not give a damn about the guy's other dates - she may not even ask the question (I never did).  How does that make her a bad girl? 

[shakespear]

Yes, meet all 5. Then go have a beer and think about it. Ok, I choose #3. Things are on track so for. The man is doing the choosing. This is good. Ok, Now #3 must show her interest for him to continue. Buuuuttttttt hold on..... she rejects him after she gets a whiff of how many women he met in the last week. Shucks, on to #5.

EXACTLY!

If a man is the hunter. Many don't know the prey they are hunting. They have the clothes, guns, maps, ect. But know nothing about the prey. They havent even thought about it. When the guy choose #3. The last thing in his mind was her rejecting him because of his VM trip. 

My opinion, and I'm sure others will differ, if you are using the WMVM strategy and if a woman rejects you because during the initial stages of your visit to her country you are dating other women at the same time, then you are the better for it.  It's her loss, not yours.  You're just dating on that first trip after all for gawd's sake.  That's why you always take a second trip where it is a WOVO with only the woman you select. 

Any FSU woman who thinks it's unreasonable for you to plan to meet several women after going to all the expense of travelling 6000 miles is being unreasonable herself.  In her own country, it is NORMAL for women to compete for desireable men.  Why should she think otherwise when dealing with a foreign man?

Don't boast about your other dates.  Politely excuse yourself and go about your business.     

[shakespear]

Or the really insecure ones.  If the woman is really confident of herself, she may not give a damn about the guy's other dates - she may not even ask the question (I never did).  How does that make her a bad girl? 

E X A C T L Y ! ! !

[SMS60]

Or the really insecure ones.  If the woman is really confident of herself, she may not give a damn about the guy's other dates - she may not even ask the question (I never did).  How does that make her a bad girl? 

I didn't say "bad girl". But could see where it could be applied given the context of the term "good girl".

I wonder sometimes if it is a fake confidence? Like trying to cover up a flaw?

BF, If a man came to visit you on a WMVM trip. How would he need to conduct himself for you to see a possible future with him? What would you be fine with? And what actions would send you walking away. Would you want to know he is visiting other women?

I agree about not asking.

[Blues Fairy]

I wonder sometimes if it is a fake confidence? Like trying to cover up a flaw?

Fake confidence usually covers up insecurity, not a flaw.   But even then, what's the difference, fake or not fake.  If she's simply too proud to ask, how does that make her "not a good girl"?  What does it have to do with goodness at all?

BF, If a man came to visit you on a WMVM trip. How would he need to conduct himself for you to see a possible future with him? What would you be fine with? And what actions would send you walking away. Would you want to know he is visiting other women?

I never engaged in this sort of dating, I preferred to establish some sort of friendship first, then meet - in Moscow or in third countries (VO).

But suppose I did join an agency and had a guy visit me after a short correspondence.  I would primarily look at how he behaves while on a date with me and how interested he is in me.  What he does outside our dates is none of my business.  If I detected lack or loss of interest in me, I would walk away; but I wouldn't waste my time analyzing possible external reasons such as other ladies.  Enough that it's not working out between us two; that's all that matters.     

[SMS60]

But suppose I did join an agency and had a guy visit me after a short correspondence.  I would primarily look at how he behaves while on a date with me and how interested he is in me.  What he does outside our dates is none of my business.  If I detected lack or loss of interest in me, I would walk away; but I wouldn't waste my time analyzing possible external reasons such as other ladies.  Enough that it's not working out between us two; that's all that matters.

This goes back to what I stated up thread. The hunter does not know his prey.

As good as the WMVM man thinks he is. He will always under estimate the senses of most women. Women have a knack for sensing things men dont have a clue about. They must have a million radar detectors in them. If you are visiting many women they will detect your mind is elsewhere. You can tell her otherwise but she wont buy it. She will sense you are not totally into her. She might not know the exact reason but knows something. Then she loses interest.

[Blues Fairy]

Women have a knack for sensing things men dont have a clue about. They must have a million radar detectors in them. If you are visiting many women they will detect your mind is elsewhere. You can tell her otherwise but she wont buy it. She will sense you are not totally into her. She might not know the exact reason but knows something.

What you're saying is that a woman will walk away from even an otherwise perfect man who is just giving off some suspicious signals on her super-sensitive radar.  If that be the case, I will say the woman with such a radar is in for a very, very long search.  To be so oversensitive on the first or second date is a sign of a serious insecurity. 

[groovlstk]

This goes back to what I stated up thread. The hunter does not know his prey.

Not only may the hunter not know his prey, he often ends up on the short end of the predator/prey relationship without knowing it - at least until he's forced to look in the mirror and notices the mule suit.

[KenC]

SMS60,
First off let's clarify something.  EVERYONE starts off as a WM by virtue of listing their profile on a dating or marriage site.

Secondly, I have always advocated that men use dating/marriage sites as "introduction" sites and no more.  The sooner the man and woman get to one on one without an agency involved, the better it is for them to truly get to know each other without outside influences.

And I walked the talk.  When I went to Russia, I met my former wife first.  She was all and more than I had hoped for, but I still went on to meet other women.  I met about 10 different women and even had dinners with a few other than Lena (my former wife of ten years).  Most women could be eliminated in about the first 5 mins of conversation, while others took longer.  Even though maybe my heart was with Lena, I wanted to be sure that I was not just caught up in the moment.  Let me explain something to you that you do not know before actually making a trip over.  It is all terribly exotic, exciting and romantic to fly across the world to have a date with a beautiful woman.  I can even appreciate how a man would make the mistake of finding "the one" woman for him if he is only meeting one woman.  The circumstances around meeting any woman like this can have an irrational affect on a man (and woman for that matter.)  Meeting the other women, verified in my mind that Lena was indeed someone special and I was not just caught up in the romance of the trip.

BTW, I find your hunter analogy laughable.  You might "think" you're the hunter because you may have initiated the contact, but once you step off the plane you are now in the RW's hunting territory and the roles can change quickly.  IMO, RW are the best hunters in the world.  You may catch one, but only if she wants to be caught by you.
KenC

[SMS60]

SMS60,
First off let's clarify something.  EVERYONE starts off as a WM by virtue of listing their profile on a dating or marriage site.

Secondly, I have always advocated that men use dating/marriage sites as "introduction" sites and no more.  The sooner the man and woman get to one on one without an agency involved, the better it is for them to truly get to know each other without outside influences.

And I walked the talk.  When I went to Russia, I met my former wife first.  She was all and more than I had hoped for, but I still went on to meet other women.  I met about 10 different women and even had dinners with a few other than Lena (my former wife of ten years).  Most women could be eliminated in about the first 5 mins of conversation, while others took longer.  Even though maybe my heart was with Lena, I wanted to be sure that I was not just caught up in the moment.  Let me explain something to you that you do not know before actually making a trip over.  It is all terribly exotic, exciting and romantic to fly across the world to have a date with a beautiful woman.  I can even appreciate how a man would make the mistake of finding "the one" woman for him if he is only meeting one woman.  The circumstances around meeting any woman like this can have an irrational affect on a man (and woman for that matter.)  Meeting the other women, verified in my mind that Lena was indeed someone special and I was not just caught up in the romance of the trip.

BTW, I find your hunter analogy laughable.  You might "think" you're the hunter because you may have initiated the contact, but once you step off the plane you are now in the RW's hunting territory and the roles can change quickly.  IMO, RW are the best hunters in the world.  You may catch one, but only if she wants to be caught by you.
KenC

MY dear KenC

What the does your post have to do with someone hitting their toe with a hammer. If you read the OP post you would know.

I have no problem of how a man decides to approach this insanity. Which I stated. I also stated the way I see as beneficial. But did not want to argue that point. Please read.

The point I was making is......... the man overlooks the actions or feelings of the woman when he does a VM trip. And what does it say about the woman (good or bad) with how she reacts to her being on a list. I have my thoughts and was looking for some others but everybody is worried about me??? Dont worry about me. I'm fine. Im content with going around in circles at high rates of speed and filling the bank account.

How you did it is irrelevent. Unless you have feed back from the women you met and what they thought about a VM they were involved with.

[shakespear]

I can even appreciate how a man would make the mistake of finding "the one" woman for him if he is only meeting one woman.  

Excellent point Ken. Don't forget the extra added pressure the man has to make a WOMO plan work. Because of the commitment of time, money and emotions to the pursuit of this one lady, you're more likely than not to make compromises for bad behavior and rationalize "no interest in a relationship signals" the lady is giving off as cultural difference or being shy. Worst rationalization possible is to think "things will change once she arrives in her new country". They do, but not like you'd imagine. Any flaws or faults in EITHER of your characters or in the relationship will be fully exposed under the pressure of her adapting to a new culture and way of life.    

[shakespear]

The point I was making is......... the man overlooks the actions or feelings of the woman when he does a VM trip. And what does it say about the woman (good or bad) with how she reacts to her being on a list.

Dude, we're trying to explain to you that it shouldn't matter to you one bit how a lady feels about the prospect of you dating other women.  It's none of her business really.  You don't have a mutually exclusive relationship yet.  You're just dating.  I'll guarantee you that she wasn't sitting around locked up in her apartment, celebant and waiting for weeks for your airplane to arrive.     

How you did it is irrelevant. Unless you have feed back from the women you met and what they thought about a VM they were involved with. 

You haven't even touched ground in the FSU yet.  I'd politely suggest less arguing and more listening to those who've been there, done that and have the t-shirt already. 

[Dave13]

KenC, " RW are the best hunters in the world' now that's a true statement!  :evil:

[Ade]

I'll guarantee you that she wasn't sitting around locked up in her apartment, celebant and waiting for weeks for your airplane to arrive.     

And I guarantee that absolute statements like that are total BS. It very much depends on the type of women you're dating; not all are party girls out dating different guys every night or MOB agency girls getting a new American arriving on her doorstep every week.

[shakespear]

And I guarantee that absolute statements like that are total BS. It very much depends on the type of women you're dating; not all are party girls out dating different guys every night or MOB agency girls getting a new American arriving on her doorstep every week.

Of course, everyone would like to imagine that their lady is the exception.  Perhaps some are right in their assessment.  Clearly many are wrong.