Dynamics of VM vs VO

[Blues Fairy]

not all are party girls out dating different guys every night

I see now where the "good girl" vs "bad girl" reasoning may be coming from.  

She doesn't care if you're VM = she's dating many men herself = party girl = bad girl.  :evil:

[groovlstk]

I've never understood why there is so much debate about this, every guy (and woman) should do what they are comfortable with.

I'd also point out that assuming a woman is "good" and sincere, etc. because she refuses to see a guy who plans to meet multiple women is just as silly as tagging them as insecure or control freaks.

SMS60, I did multiple trips of both WOVO and WMVM. There are few feelings worse than facing a 12-hr. flight home after a failed WOVO trip, yet by going the WMVM route you will undoubtedly be turned away by some good prospects.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods, and as long as a guy is aware of the consequences it's up to him to decide which has more acceptable risk.

[KenC]

MY dear KenC

What the does your post have to do with someone hitting their toe with a hammer. If you read the OP post you would know.

I have no problem of how a man decides to approach this insanity. Which I stated. I also stated the way I see as beneficial. But did not want to argue that point. Please read.

The point I was making is......... the man overlooks the actions or feelings of the woman when he does a VM trip. And what does it say about the woman (good or bad) with how she reacts to her being on a list. I have my thoughts and was looking for some others but everybody is worried about me??? Dont worry about me. I'm fine. Im content with going around in circles at high rates of speed and filling the bank account.

You may indeed find yourself going in circles again, if and when you ever travel to the fsu too, if you do not drop the tude and listen to those of experience.

The answer to your question lies in my last paragraph.

BTW, I find your hunter analogy laughable.  You might "think" you're the hunter because you may have initiated the contact, but once you step off the plane you are now in the RW's hunting territory and the roles can change quickly.  IMO, RW are the best hunters in the world.  You may catch one, but only if she wants to be caught by you.
KenC

The RW is a savvy dater.  Very savvy.  They come from a society where there is huge competition for good men.  They are more than up to the task to bag the AM they set their sights on.  Don't worry about them being shy or helpless women that are waiting around for the man to make the decision whether to go forward or not.  Ever hear anyone say here on RWD that "if a RW is in to you, you will know it.  There will be no doubt"?  In fact, I will say that many (most?) AM are in over their head in this venture.

How you did it is irrelevent. Unless you have feed back from the women you met and what they thought about a VM they were involved with.

Fair 'nuff.  None of the women I met had any qualms or questioned if I was meeting others.  Even Lena understood that we had no commitments other than friendship upon my arrival.  But it went beyond even acceptance, it was a challenge to them.  A few examples:

The day after my arrival in Russia, I went into the agency office to meet some if the staff and to get the lay of the land.  I had some coffee with Marc (the agency mgr and an American).  While we were BSing there was a buzz amongst the terps and the head lady in charge, all in Russian so unknown to me.  In conversation with Marc, he explained to me that some of the women I had on my list to meet were very very picky women and many men had tried to capture their attention and failed.  One of the women we spoke about was Olga, one of the very few more mature women they had listed at the agency in her mid 30's.  About 30 mins after my arrival at the office, Olga showed up to meet me.  We had no prior appointment.  What had happened is one of the terps or the head lady had phoned Olga to give her the scoop that I was in the office.  Olga left her work to come make my acquaintance upon getting the feedback.

The terps all talk and they all have their girlfriends in the agency.  Most consider themselves little matchmakers and are not shy to spread the news of a decent guy that is available.

Another time, I was in the office and had set up a series of short meetings with women.  Just an informal "meet and greet" sort of thing.  I was a little uncomfortable when some of these meetings overlapped, but none of the women batted an eye.  I had just finished speaking to a totally beautiful young woman (another Olga) when Tatyana, my dinner date showed up.  I had already determined that Olga was too young for any serious consideration.  Olga was chatting with a terp when Tatyna came into the office.  There also was another guy from MI I had met earlier and he was not having such good luck with the ladies.  He came up to me and asked if it would be OK if he invited Olga to dine with him.  Of course I told him to go for it.

Well......we all 4 (6 counting terps) ended up at the same restaurant!  I was trying my best to give all my attention to Tatyna, but Olga did her very best to distract me with about 4 trips to the ladies room, big smiles and a few winks behind Tatyna's back!  Who's the hunted?

If you are dealing with an agency, it is best to assume every woman you are going to meet knows every detail about any other women you are contacting while there and probably every other woman you communicated with previous to her.  It would not surprise me one bit if they even have compared notes on you.
KenC

[OlgaH]

Ken, I would rather agree with you when a person is not sure it is better for him/her to have some kind of verification... as for example trough a comparison.   By my experience I also know that a first impression can be very misleading. Needless to say that two people finally can realize that they are not a good match even after several years living together   Yes, Unfortunately, such situations also can take their place, there is no any guarantee.  

As for me, during my correspondence I gave my preference to Robert over another men because I felt something more special about him, the more we talked on the phone discussing and sharing everything about ourselves including our childhood and of course photos the more I felt it and I also felt that I was special for him (I would not go farther if I did not).  We both have our preferences, views on life determined by our life experience and through analyzing we could understand an exclusivity of each other.  As we  both were honest about ourselves our meeting face to face after several months of phone conversation just confirmed our thoughts and decision regarding our relationship.    

Though Robert and I met each other through the internet, a free dating website, we have never treated our acquaintance as the internet dating acquaintance, we have treated it as it would be our acquaintance by chance in a cafe during our lunch sitting at the same table and when we got interested in each other through our first conversation we decided to have a meeting again... and again...  This what I like about Robert.

[Ade]

I see now where the "good girl" vs "bad girl" reasoning may be coming from.  

She doesn't care if you're VM = she's dating many men herself = party girl = bad girl.  :evil:

It's silly being judgement over the sleeping habits of anyone and as far as I'm concerned women have every right to party and shag as many men as they want. However, there seems to be an assumption by some men that all RW are out bonking every chance they get and therefore it's okay for them to be deceptive and try to get it on with as many women as they want. It's a typical male "if it's all right for her then it's all right for me" thing. What they totally ignore is the fact that the women's supposed behaviour is quite possibly just a figment of their imagination used to rationalize and justify their own behaviour.

[KenC]

Olga,
I KNOW you and Robert were made for each other!   I have no doubt that the two of you would have found each other in a crowded room if that is how you first met.  But that is my point here too.  "How" you first meet matters not, but that you met the "right" person for YOU.

We all start with a blank slate and as I said before are open to communication with many others.  How everyone weeds through their possibilities is up to them.  But we ALL do weed through them at some point in time.

The "VO" people seem to think that the weeding should be done prior to traveling to the fsu and actually meeting face to face.  While the "VM" see an advantage of weeding through the possibilities face to face.  Whichever strategy one chooses is great if they find the right one.  The relationship is either half baked beforehand with an extended correspondence prior to meeting or it is developed after meeting face to face.  Where I think some people get their nose out of joint is if there is an extended correspondence to multiple women.  I would not think highly of anyone that would purposefully mislead many women into thinking they are their one and only.
KenC

[KenC]

It's silly being judgement over the sleeping habits of anyone and as far as I'm concerned women have every right to party and shag as many men as they want. However, there seems to be an assumption by some men that all RW are out bonking every chance they get and therefore it's okay for them to be deceptive and try to get it on with as many women as they want. It's a typical male "if it's all right for her then it's all right for me" thing. What they totally ignore is the fact that the women's supposed behaviour is quite possibly just a figment of their imagination used to rationalize and justify their own behaviour.

SJ,
So you believe that the sexual mores of Russians are the same as American or British?
KenC

[OlgaH]

Thanks Ken  

I agree that it doesn't matter how people meet each other and the most important to find a "right" person.

Every person is individual. For example when I was offered to meet one and even two men per day in one of European countries by a woman (an acquaintance of mine through my friends) who ran her agency, I caught myself on a thought that I could not do it. I have never had a list of dates.  

The "VO" people seem to think that the weeding should be done prior to traveling to the fsu and actually meeting face to face.

May be some "VO" people do.

I always was "date one" person so I treated online dating in the same way  

I would not think highly of anyone that would purposefully mislead many women into thinking they are their one and only.

I'm with you  

[Gator]

How great was the third girl?  All you know for sure is she was better than girl 1 and 2.  You'll never really know great she really is until you meet girls 4 and 5. 

Is this why you are divorced from your first RW wife?  Always thinking the grass is greener?

Actually this is a key issue for men, whether they go VO or VM.  When do you stop looking?

My style was WMVM, yet I agree with Kievstar - when you "connect" with a fine woman, STOP LOOKING!!!

No one is perfect so it is likely that #4 and #5 are not as good as #3.  And even if they were somehow better than #3, how do you know that they would like you.

#3 likes you; otherwise you would not have connected.  So she is keen to see more of you.  Instead, she will realize that you are moving on to meet other women.  Either she will feel slighted or think you are a player.   Either way, she's gone.   Unless she is looking for a mule.

A guideline for moving on is that you do not care if you never see #3 again. 

[Dave13]

It's not about judging anyone, everyone should realize we all have a past. After the first meeting, is when both parties can start expressing their interest in each other, then it's up too each person to decide how to precede.

KenC, I had some interesting conversations with the LTP staff also, Marc does have points on this process.

[RussianWind]

Or the really insecure ones.  If the woman is really confident of herself, she may not give a damn about the guy's other dates - she may not even ask the question (I never did).  How does that make her a bad girl? 

Oh c'mon. This has nothing to do with confidence. They just have no willing to waste their time on somebody who is not much interested. To go to a meeting for what? To look at each other and hope that a miracle flash happens and love will come?

When you have a good contact in chats, mutual understanding, share your ideas and go to meet just one... and this the one meets you at airport, helps you and spends time with you, pays attention on you... this is a completely different story.

When I was helping to my friends with some translations, I saw THOSE men. They had tired eyes and the only thing they was interested in was to go to the next one. It's like sport. Waste of time for everybody. And frankly speaking their letters were so standard and deadly boring.

Still didn't understand why girls sometimes do not show up? 

[Misha]

My style was WMVM, yet I agree with Kievstar - when you "connect" with a fine woman, STOP LOOKING!!!

I agree as perfection is not of this world. I sometimes get the impression that some men ten years from now will be meeting woman #873 and will still not be able to say enough as they might worry that #874 might be the "One" that will be perfect for them....

[Dave13]

RW, Never give a guy tired eyes!

[Blues Fairy]

Oh c'mon. This has nothing to do with confidence. They just have no willing to waste their time on somebody who is not much interested.
I saw THOSE men. They had tired eyes and the only thing they was interested in was to go to the next one. It's like sport. Waste of time for everybody. And frankly speaking their letters were so standard and deadly boring

Well if you describe it this way - I wouldn't even agree to meet someone whose letters are deadly boring.
But if it's an otherwise perfect guy, and very interested in you - would you brush him of just because he's checking out other girls?  Would you even ask about other girls, unless you are very insecure?

[shakespear]

Is this why you are divorced from your first RW wife?  Always thinking the grass is greener? 

Not at all. 

Actually this is a key issue for men, whether they go VO or VM.  When do you stop looking? 

Easy enough question.  You stop looking on each trip when you've met ALL the ladies you've decided to meet beforehand.  If your strategy was WMVM and you set out to meet 5 ladies, you stop when you meet all five.  You start over again if none of the 5 turn out to be the right lady for you.  Simple really. 

My style was WMVM, yet I agree with Kievstar - when you "connect" with a fine woman, STOP LOOKING!!!

No one is perfect so it is likely that #4 and #5 are not as good as #3.  And even if they were somehow better than #3, how do you know that they would like you.

Exactly my point.  You won't know for sure until you've met them all. 

#3 likes you; otherwise you would not have connected.  So she is keen to see more of you.  Instead, she will realize that you are moving on to meet other women.  Either she will feel slighted or think you are a player.  Either way, she's gone.  Unless she is looking for a mule.

A guideline for moving on is that you do not care if you never see #3 again. 

As my grandmother used to say, "Oh pishaw". 

So you had a good "first date" and now you're ready to "go steady"?  I can't believe that anyone really thinks such sophomoric high school dating tactics are effective in selecting a wife in the FSU.  Grow up people! 

Like I pointed out before, women from the FSU are used to competing for the attention of quality men.  Why should it be any different just because you're a western man?  If she's so sensitive that she can't stomach a little competition for your attention, you haven't lost anything of value anyway.   

Think about how impressed she'll be when she figures out you SELECTED her as the lady you most wanted to spend time with after meeting with several different women. 

BTW, the only style I used during my courtship in Russia was WMVM.  I had to start all over again several times before I latched on to exactly the right lady for me. 

[OlgaH]

But if it's an otherwise perfect guy, and very interested in you - would you brush him of just because he's checking out other girls?  Would you even ask about other girls, unless you are very insecure?

Blues Fairy, it is not just about being very insecure.

If I would sign with an agency most likely I would be aware of "visit many" approach and "look-choose-arrange a date-through a catalog at the place". If a guy I would be very interested in after some time of our correspondence and phone conversation  told me "I would like to visit YOU" I don't see any insecurity in the question "Only me?   " in such situation. It is just a natural thing for a person who likes and is interested in the other person to have a hope that she/he also is or would be liked    Honest question and honest answer helps to avoid misunderstandings and disappointments for both sides.  

[BillyB]

I think the wovo gives the man better odds of finding a mate if that is what he is looking for.

WOVO gives a man a better chance to catch the one woman he's focused on. WMVM gives a man a better chance to find the right woman because he didn't limit his options. Pros and cons to it all.

A guy should be comfortable doing what he feels is best for himself. If he does what he's not comfortable with and can't relax in the presence of a women, he'll lose her.

I found a hybrid way of doing things that has best of both Worlds of WOVO and WMVM

First Write and communicate with many women. Give yourself all kinds of options to choose from. With all the women to choose from, you are less likely to put up with BS, women who have little interest in you or the women who life's problems are solved with your money.

Narrow down the field after solid correspondence and tons of phone calls to your favorite. Your FAVORITE should also be into you and enjoy hearing your voice often. Visit her in her city. You may have to communicate with a few hundred women before you find one worth a WOVO.

Plan a VO trip and be prepared to dedicate all your time to her if she is very interested in you, is a high quality woman and deserving of your attention. Hopefully everyday from day one is a day you two grow fond of each other. If not......

Know when to hold and know when to fold. If things aren't going smooth, fold and get into WMVM mode. Get on the internet and make instant contact with ladies on dating sites. Use marriage agencies if that's up your alley. Walk the streets and socialize. Sitting in your room depressed is not an option and not going to help you get into a relationship.

By nature I'm a one woman type of man but I know the insanity of doing a WOVO and the insanity of already thinking a woman I've never met is going to be my wife.  I've done WOVO with the thought I'm visiting a woman as a "friend first" a few times but I know how to kick it in into WMVM mode instantly. In less than one day I got 4 dates from 2 women I met on the streets and 2 on a dating site. I had additional phone numbers from ladies I met off the streets and further interest from ladies wanting to meet me off the internet but I can handle only so much in a day. Once I could have had at least 6 dates over two days but I settled for 4 and used any down time to meet more ladies walking down the sidewalk, cafe, or coffee shop. I go home with lots of contact info and new friends to communicate with. Stay busy enough to the point of forgeting the name of your #1 which didn't work out hours earlier. She should be off your mind anyway while dating other women.

[jimz10]

>JollyRats writes:
>I agree with kievstar on this. Visit many but once you find that gem stop all other meetings.
Definitely.  But it can be difficult to do if the 1st one you meet seems to be that "gem".  The first morning of my first visit to any foreign country was in Kiev.  I had been looking for American dates and found her on Yahoo personals of all places.  That got me started looking for UW/RW.  I got in the apartment about 9pm,  didn't know if I would even find my way back to the apartment if I went out.  Tanya knocked on my apartment door about 9am.  The chemistry was immediate.  She had a huge dose of charisma, and also spoke perfect English.  Being my first visit, I was more than a bit worried and unsure about everything.  I didn't know if she would steal me blind in the middle of the night or what.
I made the mistake of a lifetime by deciding to go ahead and meet the other 3 ladies I was emailing.  Things just never were the same with Tanya after that.  When opportunity knocks, you have to take advantage of the moment.  You can't go back, but if I could do it over again, I would have spent the whole 10 days with her, and maybe even called my boss to get some more time off.  

[JR]

The point I was making is......... the man overlooks the actions or feelings of the woman when he does a VM trip.

Her feelings? You are not responsible for her feelings, she is. Your are responsible for your feelings and being honest with her.

Let's be real here, would you date this way in your home town? You're interested in a lady and ask to have dinner with her. She says yes but informs you she is going on vacation tomorrow for six weeks and wants schedule it sometime after she returns. You agree, get her number, promise to stay in touch with a few phone calls or emails in the interm and say ciao. Are you really going to tell me that you wouldn't ask another women out until you've had that first date with the vacation lady? Absurd!

[GQBlues]

Silly debate. A WMVM is nothing more than a WOVO waiting to happen. How can one or the other be right or wrong?

[Blues Fairy]

If a guy I would be very interested in after some time of our correspondence and phone conversation  told me "I would like to visit YOU" I don't see any insecurity in the question "Only me?   "

I do.  But perhaps agency women have indeed a different mentality than those who date casually.  If I joined an agency and were constantly aware of other women lined up to meet the same guys who are visiting me, perhaps I would be tempted to ask the question.  But in regular dating, I can't imagine asking "are you dating other women?" without giving off a powerful insecurity vibe.

Honest answer you say?

Imagine such a dialogue:

"I would like to visit YOU!"
"Only me?  "
"Eh, well, you and a couple of other ladies... but you are my first choice"  :evil:

No, Olga, I can't imagine how to ask such a question without inviting trouble.

[OlgaH]

No, Olga, I can't imagine how to ask such a question without inviting trouble.

Blues Fairy,

In such case if I would be an "agency date" knowing the "game" - I don't see any trouble between two honest people.

Trouble is when a man tells a woman "I would like to visit YOU" and more over they start to arrange the time of his visit together...

For example I would prefer a man to say (for example) "I will be in your city... (time of his arrival)" There would not be any question from me. I just would answer "call me when you will be available and we will arrange our meeting"  

[Mars]

The posts by Blues Fairy in this thread are some of the best I have ever seen from a woman.

She is absolutely correct in that it is the insecure women who are so worried about whether the man might be seeing other women.

A truly good and secure woman will not give a rats ass whether the man is seeing other women or not.  They will know that they are the best there is to be had and want the man to be able to compare to verify that fact.

Blues Fairy, if you ever have the time, you could do a great service to all men if you would run a sort of school to try to teach the FSUW how to act in this endeavor.

[kievstar]

We really need to focus on the last 3 years.  Dating scene is very different now than 10 or even 5 years ago.  Stories form long ago are nice to hear but out dated.

[Admin]

We really need to focus on the last 3 years.  Dating scene is very different now than 10 or even 5 years ago.  Stories form long ago are nice to hear but out dated.

How so?