Russian Police Corruption

[Gtex]

Olga H:

Interesting comments and reply:

"Yes, I know.  My point was, the majority of the population did not support the Revolution."

"In such case it would not happen."

Actually, since there were no "polls" at the time, we can but speculate.  I think it is more safe to say the people were ready for change.  There was at first broad support for the Kerensky transitional government.  The success of Lenin is (IMHO) more about the capability of a few committed people (pragmatic = without scruple) to direct events.    Then, the willingness to employ terror... and by doing so gain complete control.

The use of co-opted (idealistic/liberal) artists to produce such dramatic works as the "agitprop trains" and the sideboards produced in simple graphic form under the Mayakovsky  brothers at ROSTA served to sway that illiterate mass to which you referred. 

The idealistic support referred to is cultivated after the seizure of power by the elite.  The CHEKA started with the Tsar, but full controls began with Lenin.   

Please excuse this perhaps faulty estimation by a westerner, but it reflects our general (again IMHO) writing/understanding of the subject.
         

[OlgaH]

Actually, since there were no "polls" at the time, we can but speculate.

We don't need to speculate as there are many historical documents   



The Russian Revolution

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMGrIwLj7gU[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpEaPxNW0g[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mReH_vgrf-U[/youtube]

[OlgaH]

 The CHEKA started with the Tsar, but full controls began with Lenin.   
         

Cheka was created by a decree issued on December 20, 1917, by Vladimir Lenin

[Gtex]

Olga,

The point was, police control existed before and was taken further by Lenin to establish control.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I have read the Cheka was based on preexisting bureaucracy under the Tsar, decrees by Lenin aside.  As you know, many agencies of the government have often changed names under new hegemony's.

As to films, I did not know they were producing these back then.  Anything later was not then... I still submit, as we can not know the "truth" of Rasputin, neither can later interpretations be depended on to accurately reflect the truth of the moment long past.

My comments reflect our (western) understanding available (commonly) of that past.  Perhaps you are right and the populace led to Lenin, but I think not. 

[Boethius]

There has been a lot written by historians about the lack of popular support for the Revolution.  I believe it was the late Adam Ulam who described the Siege of Petrograd most vividly, stating "power was lying in the streets".  One should keep in mind the impact of WWI in the populace not fighting the Bolsheviks.

The Okhrana were Boy Scouts compared to CHEKA.

[OlgaH]

As to films, I did not know they were producing these back then. 

Gtex, ok I agree when we watch channels like history channel we also should not be sure if they use historical evidence or documents or most likely they just fabricate all the evidence


Boethius, I also agree with you. It was most likely just 20,000 Petrogradians (maybe a little bit more) moving all over Russia from region to region and to all other territories of Imperial Russia seizing the rest of population

[Boethius]

Less than 10,000 soldiers were involved in seizing Petrograd.  More than 230,000 Provisional Government troops in Petrograd at that time remained neutral.

Even by 1920, the Red Army totalled about 210,000 NCO's, of a population exceeding 120 million (including war dead).  The Red Army was not popularly supported.

[brad5959]

so what ended up happening to the original police officer, and now a few others who have posted videos??  are they still around or have they silently disappeared?  was this some sort of set up by Putin?

[Boethius]

so what ended up happening to the original police officer, and now a few others who have posted videos??  are they still around or have they silently disappeared?  was this some sort of set up by Putin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Dymovsky

But, don't blame Putin.

[brad5959]

no good deed goes unpunished.  I feel sorry for his pregnant wife.  I wonder if now he wishes he had just kept his mouth shut?  sad but I think that is the only way to survive in Russia.  keep your mouth shut and do as the Romans do when in Rome.

[Boethius]

Russia's police are far less corrupt than those in Ukraine.

[brad5959]

either way I think his loyalty should have been to himself and his immediate family.  charity begins at home.  don't pick a fight when you cannot win the battle.  he could have quietly resigned and drove a taxi or get some other job rather than posting a video and ruining his life and his wife and child's life.  a man has got to know his limitations.  sad but true.

[OlgaH]

Less than 10,000 soldiers were involved in seizing Petrograd.  More than 230,000 Provisional Government troops in Petrograd at that time remained neutral.

Even by 1920, the Red Army totalled about 210,000 NCO's, of a population exceeding 120 million (including war dead).  The Red Army was not popularly supported.

240, 000 members of Bolshevik party participated in 6th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party in July and August of 1917 in Petrograd.  

By June of 1920 the Workers’–Peasants’ Red Army totaled more than 4 millions, by the end of Civil War - more than 5 millions.

The peasants even did not wait for the Decree on Land and begun to seize the land without authorization.    

  

[Boethius]

The peasants seized land before the Revolution as well, Olga.  They were neutral, as the Reds and Whites both plundered them.  Also keep in mind, when the Bolsheviks failed to keep their promises, there were waves of uprisings across Russia, the worst occurring in Tambov.

Most of those Red Army "soldiers" were forced conscripts, Olga.  Before seizing power, the Red Army was only about 500,000, and about half of those were officers (as I indicated above).

[Boethius]

no good deed goes unpunished.  I feel sorry for his pregnant wife.  I wonder if now he wishes he had just kept his mouth shut?  sad but I think that is the only way to survive in Russia.  keep your mouth shut and do as the Romans do when in Rome.

Different people do what they think is right.  Remember Serpico?

[OlgaH]

Boethius, I understand that we read different sources but Russia is too big to be seized just by 500,000 Bolsheviks without supporting.  USSR was established in 1922 just 4 years later by unity of Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, The Transcaucasian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic consisted of Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan.

Regarding peasants as you know the full name of the Red Army was RKKA - Workers’–Peasants’ Red Army, there also was Workers’–Peasants’ Red Navy.

The desertion from Imperial Army begun in 1915 and by 1917 from army deserted more than 1 million and as you know the ordinary soldiers were mostly peasants by origin and many of them joined the Red Army.

[Boethius]

If the population is indifferent, Olga, this can, and is, what occurred. The Revolution was not supported by a majority of the population.   

[OlgaH]

If the population is indifferent, Olga, this can, and is, what occurred. The Revolution was not supported by a majority of the population.   

Boethius, unfortunately it was  From the Left Mensheviks' news paper "New Life" (right on the Revolution Eve): "Party of Bolsheviks is not a gang of criminals that you can execute or imprison in Kresty. Bolshevisks supported by overwhelming majority of population that is not able to follow somebody to make politics" 

[brad5959]

Different people do what they think is right.  Remember Serpico?

I think Serpico was gay.  he didn't have a wife and child.

[Boethius]

Boethius, unfortunately it was  From the Left Mensheviks' news paper "New Life" (right on the Revolution Eve): "Party of Bolsheviks is not a gang of criminals that you can execute or imprison in Kresty. Bolshevisks supported by overwhelming majority of population that is not able to follow somebody to make politics" 

Thanks Olga, but remember, the Mensheviks were not exactly neutral on this matter.  I'll look up some primary sources.

I think Serpico was gay.  he didn't have a wife and child.

Well, first, I don't think there is anything wrong with being gay.  Our society should evolve to a place where we don't care.  However, Serpico had 4 wives.  His last marriage produced a son, and was his longest, ending when his wife died of cancer.

[brad5959]

my bad.  must have been a different Al Pacino movie.

I think a police officer has a much better chance of fighting corruption in the USA than in Ukraine or Russia.

[Jooky]

must have been a different Al Pacino movie.

Dog Day Afternoon?

[Shadow]

my bad.  must have been a different Al Pacino movie.

I think a police officer has a much better chance of fighting corruption in the USA than in Ukraine or Russia.

I think in the USA there would also be a high chance to be fired if you post a video on Youtube accusing your boss.

[Boethius]

No, Shadow, probably not for police.  It is a unionized environment.  However, other police officers, if they viewed the "squealing" as out of bounds, would make life very difficult.

[brad5959]

I think in the USA there would also be a high chance to be fired if you post a video on Youtube accusing your boss.

if a police officer in the US has evidence of misconduct by superiors he should discreetly go to the FBI who can conduct an investigation.  the police officer will not lose his job unless he has also been part of the misconduct.  it seems the Russian police officer was also involved in the misconduct, so he obviously lost his job.  I would agree with you that posting a video on Youtube is not the best way to go.