Russian Police Corruption

[tim 360]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/10/world/worldwatch/entry5599082.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.3

[shakespear]

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/10/world/worldwatch/entry5599082.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.3

All true.  The Russian mafia isn't just criminal gangsters anymore.  The police and government officals ARE the mafia. 

[SMS60]

How long will it be until the guy completely vanishes?

[Blues Fairy]

All true.  The Russian mafia isn't just criminal gangsters anymore.  The police and government officals ARE the mafia. 

Sadly ironic is the fact that the crusading cop is planning to go to Putin and personally tell him about all the corruption.  Yeah, surely Putin will set things right after he is made aware of the abuses!

This eternal Russian belief in the "kind Tsar" is just mind-boggling.

[shakespear]

How long will it be until the guy completely vanishes?

Because he went public and the exposure is international, I'd guess he's pretty safe in that regard. 

I'd guess he'd be more likely to be involved in a line-of-duty fatality or to be retired early based on performance reports from supervisors. 

[Blues Fairy]

I'd guess he'd be more likely to be involved in a line-of-duty fatality

He's already fired.

Very soon he'll disappear completely.

[tim 360]

I'm confident Putin will listen and make big changes...not.  He may have an "unfortunate accident" or maybe just disappear or perhaps a bad case of ricin poisioning.

[Sculpto]

He's already fired.

Very soon he'll disappear completely.

Blues.. can you provide some discussion points "anti Putin" please.  Thanks.

[Phil dAmore]

Because he went public and the exposure is international, I'd guess he's pretty safe in that regard. 

Tell that to  Alex Litveyenko. 
or Galina Starovoitova
or Andrei Kozlov
or Anna Politkovskaya
or Stanslav Markelov
or Natalia Estemirova
or any of the countless lesser-knowns who dared to question Putin.

[JR]

Dead man walking.....does he actually believe Putin isn't aware of this?

[Blues Fairy]

Blues.. can you provide some discussion points "anti Putin" please.  Thanks.

Not sure I understand the question/request.  Care to explain?

[OlgaH]

"I was promoted to the rank of Major last May for having given a promise [to my superior] to put an innocent person in prison. I am not afraid to say this, even though I know that I can be punished for that. But it is a fact."

Why did he agree "to put an innocent person in prison" and  actually did it as he got his rank of Major. Where his honesty and video was at that time?

[Sculpto]

Not sure I understand the question/request.  Care to explain?

Well.. basically someone is a big fan of Putin.. to an actually irrational level.. for example.. everything in Russia is corrupt.. except Putin.  I don't have a clue how to argue/discuss the reality that we see outside of Russia.  Might be better off not even touching the subject but if there are some specific points I can use that are logical, "fact" based and provable I might be able to open someones eyes a bit.

Make sense?

[Blues Fairy]

Well.. basically someone is a big fan of Putin.. to an actually irrational level..

 
And you are looking for rational arguments to reform this irrational fan of Putin? 

Please look at some of our past battles here on RWD and ask yourself, have the arguments I presented in those discussion been of any use in persuading you to accept something opposite to what you passionately believed in?
And you want me to waste time arguing with someone irrational even by YOUR standards, whom I don't even know?

[Shadow]

Allright guys and girls, all who wish to blame Russia for this I challenge that you will write today a letter to the press and give details on what negative sides you think about your employer, or key supplier.
Then please be surprised if you get fired, and make it an international scandal.

[RussianWind]

Please look at some of our past battles here on RWD and ask yourself, have the arguments I presented in those discussion been of any use in persuading you to accept something opposite to what you passionately believed in?

I like your answer, Blues 

2012isFiction thank you for not opening my eyes, ok? I got used to open and close them myself 

You get your "facts" from what your media feeds you, it is not always correctly presented, you should know it. If you want to argue about problems in Russia, it's waste of time, we all know about them too, don't think it's a country of blinds and idiots. Concentrate better on problems in your country, I am sure you have plenty of them, corruption included 

[Blues Fairy]

Allright guys and girls, all who wish to blame Russia for this I challenge that you will write today a letter to the press and give details on what negative sides you think about your employer, or key supplier.
Then please be surprised if you get fired, and make it an international scandal.

Incorrect analogy.  Corporate loyalty rules exist everywhere and have nothing to do with the freedom of speech, the essential part of which is the right to criticize the government and not fear for your life.   

[roykirk]

Incorrect analogy.  Corporate loyalty rules exist everywhere and have nothing to do with the freedom of speech, the essential part of which is the right to criticize the government and not fear for your life.   

Good point.  Reminds me of a debate my wife and I had one night about Putin.  She recited all the good things he had done to improve Russia.  I asked her if it was worth the clamp down on personal freedoms.  Her response was, "What clamp down?"  I then explained to her about all the people who had gone missing or been murdered after criticizing Putin, and how Amnesty International listed Russia as one of the most dangerous places in the world for a journalist.  At first she didn't believe me, until I showed her article after article after article.  My wife is university educated and I think she's brilliant, but it just goes to show how easily people like her were duped by the Putin propaganda machine. 

[Blues Fairy]

She recited all the good things he had done to improve Russia. 

Oh let me guess, "strengthened power vertical"? "People live better"?

All I see is rampant corruption, lopsided economy, absence of civil society, no political freedom, and autocratic power structure.  And poverty, still. 

[RussianWind]

All I see is rampant corruption, lopsided economy, absence of civil society, no political freedom, and autocratic power structure.  And poverty, still.  

I smile when I see such type of comments. So was it better in Yeltsin, Gorbachev, Brezhnev times then?

Was the economy not lopsided that time?   Do you understand that 10 years for economy is like 1 hour for a human life? It should take at least few generations to change completely. Since the bank crisis 10 years ago people still don't trust banks. They still prefer cash in hands... how can it be not lopsided?  
Do you remember inflation rate in 1998? Do you remember the discount rate in 1995? It was 200% (!). Would you start your business if you can't get a loan or you have to give back more than 200%? All state companies were bankrupt and no private companies. So please remove your ironic "People live better". People do live much better.

[Blues Fairy]

It should take at least few generations to change completely.

You are wrong, actually. All it takes is a comprehensive economic reform, no parts of which Putin has achieved.  Russia is still an economy based on raw oil exports - which are state-owned and state-controlled.  Back to the USSR.

Since the bank crisis 10 years ago people still don't trust banks. They still prefer cash in hands... how can it be not lopsided?

Wrong again.  Just look how many loans the Russian banking system has given out in the past few years.  If people didn't trust banks, Russia wouldn't have a financial crisis now.  But still it has nothing to do with lopsided economy, which is characterized by the absence of any decent industrial production except natural resources.

Russian Wind, your argument is indeed emotional and very near-sighted.  You compare Putin's Russia with Russia of the socialist and the so-called "transitional" period, whereas you should be comparing it with a developed capitalist democracy. 

[RussianWind]

Blues I don't want to sound rude but your have a primitive approach discussing of economy. And this is why I don't want to be involved in this discussion. Just few comments.

You are wrong, actually.

I am right. The economy in Russia made huge steps for the last 15 years, very huge. You don't remember those ruins in 90s? People who worked for the state all their lives for the same company with a guaranteed salaries simply didn't know how to start own business. We had no managers, we had no specialists in market economy, we had nothing. Preparation of these specialists took few years. Tax authorities DIDN'T know how count taxes, can you imagine? They also had no specialists. Bandits acted like in America in 30s.

All it takes is a comprehensive economic reform, no parts of which Putin has achieved.

Can you please specify in details each so called reform? In my oppinion there were right and wrong steps. Small companies, the basis of free market, got indulgence - they pay much less taxes.

Russia is still an economy based on raw oil exports - which are state-owned and state-controlled.  Back to the USSR.

It is owned not by state but a small group of people. Give me example where it is different? To produce oil is not like to open a small shop.

While Russia has oil and gas resources, the economy will be mainly based on them. But it's better now, I already forgot when saw American chicken legs in shops last time

Wrong again.  Just look how many loans the Russian banking system has given out in the past few years.  If people didn't trust banks, Russia wouldn't have a financial crisis now.

Crisis touched Russia less than America. Some multimillionaires because millionairs   Normal people do not see the difference (except those businessmen who had big loans). Property prices didn't drop in comparisson with London for example. People do not trust banks - how many companies pay salaries in cash, not by transfers to credid cards? Still very little.

But still it has nothing to do with lopsided economy, which is characterized by the absence of any decent industrial production except natural resources.

Healthy bank and insurance systems are the main parts of healthy economy.
To develope industrial production on a decent level takes years... do you understand at all what you are speaking about? Do you understand how long it takes to rise an automobile plant and avia industry after bankrupcy? As I remember the only new liner from Russia Sukhoi Superjet was presented in Le Bourget this year and they made good contructs.

Russian Wind, your argument is indeed emotional and very near-sighted.  You compare Putin's Russia with Russia of the socialist and the so-called "transitional" period, whereas you should be comparing it with a developed capitalist democracy.  

I will keep silence about your arguments, ok? Are we speaking of a tendency or what? Or you think that Mr President is a magician and he should strike with his magical stick and everything immediately appear?  

It is not only correct to compare different periods of the country, you need to do it to understand if we are moving in the right derection. What is incorrect is to applay American, European, Chinese and Indian models to Russia thoughtlessness. They simply won't work because every mentioned above has own structure developed through decades.

[OlgaH]

Police Corruption is nothing new. Corruption is two-sided process "one gives-other takes; one ask-other agrees and gives)

Dymovsky was serving in the Militia since 2000 and since that time most likely he has known about corruption. So what? He put an innocent person in prison and got his rank of Major and only after 7 months  he suddenly became conscience-stricken. May be during that his silent period  he expected to get a higher rank from his superior but he did not? Who knows...

Professor Preobrazhensky from Bulgakov's novel "The heart of a dog" said: "If  when I go  to the  lavatory I don't  pee,  if  you'll  excuse the expression, into the  bowl but on to the floor instead and if Zina and Darya Petrovna were  to do  the same  thing,  the lavatory would be ruined.  Ruin, therefore,  is not  caused by  lavatories but it's  something that starts in people's heads".

1917 Russians accomplished the October coup fighting for equal rights and they got their equal rights, they even wore identical clothes and shoes they could find in stores, they were fighting against the Tsar regime, for freedom, and during 80 years they were living under the Communist regime...

Probably when people will understand that the democracy first of all is a self-responsibility for your own words and action (and of course also will stop pee in elevators) they will not need to be ruled with a rod of iron.

When I read Novodvorskaya'a articles I understand her good intentions to open eyes of "aggressive-submissive majority of Russian population" (by her words). But may be the majority will listen and follow the "good intentions" if she, and other journalists of a news paper sponsored by Berezovsky will take a different approach "to open people's minds" instead of their journalistic aggressiveness towards "majority of Russian population" and  sometimes not so professional spitting towards the current government.
___________________________

Russian Wind I remember very well 1990s. The country was (pardon) in a sh-t hole.

[Blues Fairy]

Probably when people will understand that the democracy first of all is a self-responsibility for your own words and action (and of course also will stop pee in elevators) they will not need to be ruled with a rod of iron.

Chicken vs. egg. 
When people are given freedom and ownership, they learn responsibility very quickly.

Give a man secure possession of a bleak rock, and he will turn it into a garden; give him nine years' lease of a garden, and he will convert it into a desert.  ~Arthur Young

The cops, by the way, have a quota of arrests and criminal charges; not meeting the quota results in salary cuts or firing.  They are literally forced to grab innocent people when they are short on their quota.  One could argue that people with conscience should not get employed in such a corrupt system; I tend to believe this cop when he says he repented and decided to take action.  Better late than never. 

[Blues Fairy]

Blues I don't want to sound rude

Yet you do.  If you would like to remain within the limits of respectful debate, please refrain from exclamations such as:

do you understand at all what you are speaking about?
I will keep silence about your arguments, ok?

Russian economy is a colossus on clay knees.  Yes it may not be as much of a sh**hole as it was in the post-Gorby period, but its current structure will not survive the next 15 years unless it's thoroughly reformed.  The brief period of prosperity was achieved due to favorable prices on natural resources (that's what had allowed the Brezhnev's regime to survive so long, back in the 70s and 80s), but the property system, the infrastructure, the banking system, the welfare system, the judicial system were not reformed to support long-term growth.  This is all economy 101 and I'm not going to waste time explaining the basics to you.  Your argument that Russia has some kind of "special way" not comparable with the rest of the world does not stand ground.  There are two ways: free market which works, and state-controlled economy which does not.  Russia, with its virtually nationalized key sectors of economy and withering private sector, is in for a lot of trouble in the long run.