Russian Police Corruption

[RussianWind]

Well, after such statements I don't see the point in continuing the discussion. 

You just missed the point. As always 

[Blues Fairy]

You just missed the point. As always 

Which point do you think I missed?

[OlgaH]

Which point do you think I missed?

I guess may be:
The idea to build a classless society with equal rights and freedoms was very exciting for the majority of Russian population who were driven into a corner at that time. And of course the majority could not even imagine that the "nomenklatura" would take exactly the position of the "upper class"   Utopia of Communistic equality remained to be utopia.

[JR]

JR, is the Federal Reserve a republic, democracy or a short-lived dictatorship ?

I would love to hear BF opining.

The Federal Reserve is a private corporate which operates on a for profit basis. It has 12 stock holders and no shares have ever changed hands.

[JR]

And how you imagine the freedoms of speech and press to be allowed under the dictatorship (an autocratic form of government)  

A dictator CAN allow freedom of speech and of press. But his reign would be short lived. Can and will are two different words.

[RussianWind]

I guess may be:
The idea to build a classless society with equal rights and freedoms was very exciting for the majority of Russian population who were driven into a corner at that time. And of course the majority could not even imagine that the "nomenklatura" would take exactly the position of the "upper class"   Utopia of Communistic equality remained to be utopia.

Exactly. Thank you Olga 

There is nothing bad in socialist and communist ideas: "Everybody should get as much as he worths" and "Everybody should get as much as he needs". They didn't know they would fail, they believed in ideas.

[Boethius]

Don't forget that America was founded by settlers who ran away from the monarchy, and started fighting against it almost immediately.  A rather unique situation. No other country is predicated on the supremacy of individual rights and freedoms.  

Have you ever heard of Roanoke Island? (granted, a failure, but it paved the way for future colonization) Jamestown?  There were British settlements for over a century before the Revolutionary War.  Spanish and Dutch settlements, which predate the British, were not in conflict with their monarchs.

I don't disagree with you.
Yes, ideas of the revolution included freedom of speech, freedom of press,  and other freedoms. Do you remember Lenin's decrees in 1918 about freedom of religion and freedom of nations for self-determination   And people accomplished the revolution believing in the ideas.  

Many bright individuals who supported the ideas were disappointed after. Have you read the letter's by Gorky to Stalin?

The freedom of speech/press etc. was through the eyes/mentality of the working class.  Remember, Lenin stated who controls the media controls the state.  Everything was through proletarian ideology, and serving the proletariat.   You can't compare it to freedom in the Western understanding thereof.

Lenin was very pragmatic.  "Self determination", and "releasing" Finland and Ukraine was to save the revolution in Russia.  Lenin believed these nations, because they did not have their own administration, could not survive without Russia.  Finland did, perhaps because of German intervention.  

Never forget, Lenin did not abolish the secret police.  He gave direct orders to Dzerzhinsky, and ordered the execution of the Tsar's family and closest servants.

I will also add, as an afterthought, that the Revolution was never supported, or fought for, by the majority of the populace. 

[OlgaH]

They didn't know they would fail, they believed in ideas.

RussianWind,

Democratic ideas of freedoms as an idea "to everyone according to his needs and of course his abilities" are just an illusion or utopia in society where people don't have their rights to be even individual, in society where a developing of a personality and abilities must be subjected to one main idea that "people are only cogs in the machine". That was the Communism with its "democratic" centralism.  

[OlgaH]

Lenin was very pragmatic.  "Self determination", and "releasing" Finland and Ukraine was to save the revolution in Russia.

Boethius,

Did I say something otherwise? What I was saying  it was easy to lead people to believe in bright ideas of freedoms when majority of people got stuck in poverty. Even Sergei Witte stated in 1899 that the average consumption per capita in Russia was 1/4 and even 1/5 of what that in the other countries was considered to be necessary for average living.     

[Boethius]

I don't think the majority of people at that time were even aware of these "lofty" theories.

[OlgaH]

A dictator CAN allow freedom of speech and of press. But his reign would be short lived. Can and will are two different words.

Can and will of course are different words, but your phrase with "if" - "Dictatorships tend to be short-lived if people are allowed to congregrate and talk openly" more looks like a one Russian saying "Если бы да кабы, да во рту росли бобы – был бы не рот, а огород" - If the beans could grow in a mouth it would not be a mouth but a garden"

[OlgaH]

I don't think the majority of people at that time were even aware of these "lofty" theories.

Boethius, look for the Russian demography at that time. The majority of population was uneducated peasants and workers.

[RussianWind]

Democratic ideas of freedoms as an idea "to everyone according to his needs and of course his abilities" are just an illusion or utopia in society where people don't have their rights to be even individual

Sure but it's we who understand this now. Back to that time the working class believed in those beautiful ideas and supported the revolution. It was a talanted advertising company actually.

Read recently an interesting article that the abdication of Nikolai II was a falsification http://aif.ru/politic/article/30586

[JR]

Can and will of course are different words, but your phrase with "if" - "Dictatorships tend to be short-lived if people are allowed to congregrate and talk openly" more looks like a one Russian saying "Если бы да кабы, да во рту росли бобы – был бы не рот, а огород" - If the beans could grow in a mouth it would not be a mouth but a garden"

"If" is a very big word in the difference between can and will. I was only pointing out that difference to make light (fun) of the discourse. My argument was purely satirical. It is laughable to me that anyone would think that the American Revolutionary War was fought over freedom of speech. The Founding Fathers spoke quite freely. Their beef was in not being represented in the government which ruled over them. Or at least that is what they put forth as their impetus for revolt.

[OlgaH]

I was only pointing out that difference to make light (fun) of the discourse. My argument was purely satirical.

In such case I agree with Sandro.

It is laughable to me that anyone would think that the American Revolutionary War was fought over freedom of speech.

Nobody eves was talking about American Revolutionary War i this thread. You most likely missed something.

[Ludmila]

JR, thanks for your exhausting reply .

quoting you :
The Federal Reserve is a private corporate which operates on a for profit basis. It has 12 stock holders and no shares have ever changed hands.

Last time I checked the text of the cash dollar, it said " Federal Reserve note"


For some strange reason, I don't know why, cannot explain, don't have a clue why, but I am asking myself ( and you)a question  : Is it a dictatorship then?

[Boethius]

Boethius, look for the Russian demography at that time. The majority of population was uneducated peasants and workers.

Yes, I know.  My point was, the majority of the population did not support the Revolution. 

[I/O]

R/W: Not sure if you have seen one of about 50 thousand p!ss!ng matches there has been across who knows how many forums on the RU vs USA thing. It's kinda, well, p!ss weak but it happens. Usually hallmarked at some point by one RW accusing another of lacking patriotism. Just thought I'd mention it.

This poor and honorable ex cop is not so poor he can't hire (remember he now supposedly unemployed) a private body guard. He can't be so naive as to think uncle Vova will sort it all out in a heartbeat. He can send his wife to Moscow (for what?) Sumpin' awful stinky here somewhere........... As they say, follow the money trail.

[RussianWind]

For some strange reason, I don't know why, cannot explain, don't have a clue why, but I am asking myself ( and you)a question  : Is it a dictatorship then?

Ludmila, what the strange questions you ask indeed

Is a director of a small private sole-ownership company a dictator?   It depends on how much freedom and rights he gives to his employees  

The American Federal Reserve System is unique compared to others' in the world, as almost everything in the US. It's again the question to BF how possible to compare the American model with the rest of the world  

[OlgaH]

Yes, I know.  My point was, the majority of the population did not support the Revolution. 

In such case it would not happen.

[tim 360]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/13/tech/main5636070.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.2


Looks like its True Crime Confessions on youtube

[Ludmila]

I am sure, JR got my message.

Russian Wind definately has. :-) :-)

[Ludmila]

Sorry, I meant hint, instead of message.
sorry ab that.

[Tim22]

They just have to pay the police more and the corruption will decrease.

[Shadow]

They just have to pay the police more and the corruption will decrease.

Depends on who pays more....