Men (and women) why do you let age inappropriate relationships get started?

[I/O]

Sometimes women see those unique qualities which nobody else sees 

And...............sometimes you are much too kind.

[JR]

I sent: "Hi, check my bikini photos" to JollyRats and BillyB, still none of them responded   :seething:

I must be special because the photos I recieved....well, there was no bikini Thanks RW!!! I'll respond as soon as I pick my jaw up off the floor. BTW, when can we start having sex? It's not fair for you to leave me hanging like this....

[Mars]

I must be special because the photos I recieved....well, there was no bikini Thanks RW!!! I'll respond as soon as I pick my jaw up off the floor. BTW, when can we start having sex? It's not fair for you to leave me hanging like this....

If you are 'hanging' then you are not yet ready!

[RussianWind]

BTW, when can we start having sex? It's not fair for you to leave me hanging like this....

After you marry me of course. Every day. Twice. No, better thrice.

[Jumper]

but only if you both feel its  an age appropriate marriage

[JR]

After you marry me of course. Every day. Twice. No, better thrice.

Three times a day? What happened to the five times a day you were talking about in your PMs to me?

[I/O]

your PMs

~OMG~ PMS? Run you idiot run.

[Mir]

After you marry me of course. Every day. Twice. No, better thrice.

Three times a day? What happened to the five times a day you were talking about in your PMs to me?

That was for the night

[Mars]

Three times a day? What happened to the five times a day you were talking about in your PMs to me?

Maybe you two should get a virtual hotel room!!

[RussianWind]

Three times a day? What happened to the five times a day you were talking about in your PMs to me?

As a normal woman I can write many discrepant things in my PMS. What else did I promise? 

[JR]

As a normal woman I can write many discrepant things in my PMS. What else did I promise? 

PMS? Do you know what PMS stands for? It's not Pre-Menstrual Syndrome...Oh no! It means Put-up with Mens Shit! LOL.

[IAmZon]

I promised NOT to participate on age gap threads on RWD anymore.   There is only so much time in life.  BUT, I  CAN STILL QUOTE.  This comes from another board, and from a Frenchman. I thought it was accurate and succinct.  So the REAL question in all this BS, is accepting the hidden financial contract.

"You will see once you are here that there is love for everybody. It will depend less on your physical traits, age than on your capacity to secure your partner financially. With 40% of the population under poverty level, what would you expect?

The question is not if you will find affection here but if you can live confortable with the love for security hidden contract. After all, this was something fairly normal before the rise of feminism in western democracies, when sexes stopped to be complementary and started to become competitive, when the Ying and the Yang merged into a Big Bang of lonelyness."  by Cool French guy on Argentine Expat Forum

[Gator]

"You will see once you are here that there is love for everybody. It will depend less on your physical traits, age than on your capacity to secure your partner financially. With 40% of the population under poverty level, what would you expect?

The question is not if you will find affection here but if you can live confortable with the love for security hidden contract.

I am not buying this concept as something that would enliven the heart of a real man.  A man's loins, yes.  His heart, no.

I  notice this quoted opinion comes from Argentina, a country that has sufferred economically for some time. 

An AM for sure has an economic advantage in such countries.  It  facilitates the initial meeting with a woman.  From there, the advantage should not be leveraged and instead the enduring depth of a serious relationship should be measured based on all the normal factors such as having fun together, values, attraction,  goals, intellectual stimulation,  etc.  Otherwise the man is merely a knight in shining armor or sugar daddy.  Neither is enduring. 

It is difficult not to play the "financial security" trump card. Even if the card is downplayed by the man, the woman expects it to be there and that it will eliminate her worries.   Even after knowing my wife for over 7 years, I still feel uncomfortable about not knowing how much of the glue between us is due to money.  If I were Gandhi, she would not have married me.

The advantage even comes to play with American women.  My AM wife of 25 years was a very popular woman with plenty of choices.   In the beginning of our relationship we had the usual girl likes boy stuff; my economic prospects and/or success mattered little.  As we became more serious, she chose me because I did not bore her AND I had a good professional career.  All of her other men had just one of these two.  She wanted children and did not want the turmoil of financial ups and downs.  If I were Gandhi, she would not have married me.

[IAmZon]

I offered the quote because it says much in few words.  Interestingly, it originates not from Argentina, but from France. It's application can be made in the USA too.  However, it takes on an added effect in places like Colombia and Urkraine - Argentina to a less degree ( Portenas are very challenging.  Similar to AW, sin embargo más apasionado )

I think we American men have become too "in touch with our feminine side."  For example: "I am not buying this concept as something that would enliven the heart of a real man.  A man's loins, yes.  His heart, no."

Why do we presume to have a choice in the matter?  It seems to me there is genetics and heredity at work here?

Of course I understand your position and the story of your first wife. I have a similar story.  In both of our cases Gator, we are not married to those fine ladies anymore. In both our cases, we examined our new lives without borders or preconceived limitations.

Now then, I have traveled and lived outside the USA, mostly in South America, for the past couple of years.  I have noticed the truth in the above quote often, not its limitations.  It explains much.  I think to brush aside its truthful observations makes us less.

Besides, these two notions are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for attraction to be based mostly on female beauty for the man, security/ status for the woman - ESPECIALLY in the beginning.  From there physical chemistry; compatibility; and other deeper attractions are formed. 

There is a hard truth at work here that we often bend over backwards to ignore, or avoid. 

I am tired of being so arched:)  Young, beautiful women are attracted to me not because I am "pretty; or their ideal boy friend."  That is an untruth.  Rather, it is that they see, or presume, I possess what they are lacking/seeking  - control; stability; status; and abundance. 

[mies]

Answering your question Mars - because sometimes people get smitten, and then logic starts looking for plausible future scenarios. Both man can fall in love with younger/older woman, and woman can fall in love with younger/older man.  

Another explanation - calculativeness. Girl thinks she can get something out of it and can spend few years of her life as a "price", man thinks he can get something at affordable cost, and hopefully it will last long.

and third - the most sad case - when one person in a couple is smitten/in love, and another is purely calculative. And not always RW is a calculative one - quite often the man is.

[Mars]

Answering your question Mars - because sometimes people get smitten, and then logic starts looking for plausible future scenarios. Both man can fall in love with younger/older woman, and woman can fall in love with younger/older man.  

Another explanation - calculativeness. Girl thinks she can get something out of it and can spend few years of her life as a "price", man thinks he can get something at affordable cost, and hopefully it will last long.

and third - the most sad case - when one person in a couple is smitten/in love, and another is purely calculative. And not always RW is a calculative one - quite often the man is.

Good analysis Mies.  However, in your first scenario, someone lets themself get smitten.  But the question was . . . why do they let the relationship get started in the first place?  If they didn't let it get started; no one would become smitten!!

But I wonder about your third scenario.  Do you really think there are many cases in which a FSUW truly gets smitten and the western man (who is not smitten in this scenario) acts in a calculative manner?  I sort of doubt it.

Remember, we are usually talking about situations where the western man is looking to trade up in terms of looks, youth, education, cultured woman, etc.

[Gator]

Do you really think there are many cases in which a FSUW truly gets smitten and the western man (who is not smitten in this scenario) acts in a calculative manner?  I sort of doubt it.

Sure, such WM are called players or devious sex tourists.   They have no concern about the woman's feelings.

[IAmZon]

Generally speaking, most AM travelling abroad for romance do not have much "game".  I have seen many "mongers" but very few "players."  Only 20%  - 40% of AM that travel abroad are NOT bona fide, red flag weirdos.  Most of this group is physically and socially challenged versus their dating targets. However, most of this group are successful and well meaning; but, again, at an emotional disadvantage.

The eligible women are the object of desire and - most of the time - possesses looks, intelligence, choices = leverage.  Yet, the women are negotiating compromising positions too.

Who is really at a disadvantage?  Both, Neither, it depends

I do not understand what a Sex Tourist is?  Sex is not a crime like a "burglary" or homicide.  And we Americans ARE ENTIRELY TOO UPTIGHT ABOUT IT. Naturally, there are men that throw their money and a promise of a better life around in an effort to manipulate women (probably more common 10 years ago) ... but, these guys look pathetic as soon as they assert themselves and almost always land on the a$$. The Russian men I know are 1000 times worse in this regard - being insensitive that is.

I think we are over looking an area of behavior called - NORMAL.

[mies]

Good analysis Mies.  However, in your first scenario, someone lets themself get smitten.  But the question was . . . why do they let the relationship get started in the first place?  If they didn't let it get started; no one would become smitten!!

some people first get smitten, and then - start the relationship. they start relationship because they are smitten, and because good emotions from this state are more important to them than logical analysis of the situation.

But I wonder about your third scenario.  Do you really think there are many cases in which a FSUW truly gets smitten and the western man (who is not smitten in this scenario) acts in a calculative manner?  I sort of doubt it.

yes i do - because i've seen it quite a few times with various people/couples. Man starts dating with rational and skeptical approach - he knows what he wants, how much money he can spend, and what is the timeframe. He knows what he will offer to a woman and what he will get, he is better informed. Woman makes uninformed decision based only on her feelings, emotions, and some irrational hopes/dreams. Some men just want to get temporary fun, each time with new woman. If man intentionally feeds woman's irrational dreams, or leads her to unrealistic assumptions trying to get his well-informed and well-calculated objective - this is the case #3.

Remember, we are usually talking about situations where the western man is looking to trade up in terms of looks, youth, education, cultured woman, etc.

I understand that. We do not normally think that WM goes to Russia to find sugar-mama. But looking for a "good deal" is a calculative activity. There are many American and Canadian 20-30yo girls at "plenty-of-fish" or "beautifulpeople" or even "facebook" and "myspace", and many of them are very hot. What are the chances that a 55yo man with 60K annual income will get reply from American 20yo college hottie? Don't tell me american girls are not attractive and immature - many of you have daughters of that age and you know very well they are beautiful, and smart, and intelligent, and so on. Will man's chances change if he writes to a Russian hottie? hmm.. i think the picture will be quite different. So what else is it rather than a good deal, or accessibility, if you will? Man gets same quality body/looks, with some extra charm from foreign accent and culture, and extra problems from same foreign origin. Man assessed his means and abilities, and decided he can afford the endeavor. Just read the threads on this forum "can i afford a russian wife?" To me it looks like calculative decision. Some women genuinly fall in love, while the man they fall in love with is merely carefully weeding out the multiple redundant candidates to take the winner of the quest to the Fairyland with K-1 ticket.

[IAmZon]

The original question is answered by simply realizing that the heart has an appetite all its own and that men (and women for that matter) do not act rationally in matters of the heart.  The heart wants what the heart wants.

I agree with this post by and large:

I understand that. We do not normally think that WM goes to Russia to find sugar-mama. But looking for a "good deal" is a calculative activity. There are many American and Canadian 20-30yo girls at "plenty-of-fish" or "beautifulpeople" or even "facebook" and "myspace", and many of them are very hot. What are the chances that a 55yo man with 60K annual income will get reply from American 20yo college hottie? Don't tell me american girls are not attractive and immature - many of you have daughters of that age and you know very well they are beautiful, and smart, and intelligent, and so on. Will man's chances change if he writes to a Russian hottie? hmm.. i think the picture will be quite different. So what else is it rather than a good deal, or accessibility, if you will? Man gets same quality body/looks, with some extra charm from foreign accent and culture, and extra problems from same foreign origin. Man assessed his means and abilities, and decided he can afford the endeavor. Just read the threads on this forum "can i afford a russian wife?" To me it looks like calculative decision. Some women genuinly fall in love, while the man they fall in love with is merely carefully weeding out the multiple redundant candidates to take the winner of the quest to the Fairyland with K-1 ticket.

However, with some CAVEATS:

The USA is an extreme example of male sexual frustration today. In the US - to a lesser degree other western counties - the VALUE of a man is greatly decreased from where it was only 30 years ago (I am not saying it is right, or wrong. It just is).   Can you imagine a Russian; Romainian; Frenchman; or Argentino who is 35 - 55 years of age; intelligent; "not ugly"; and financially successful NOT BEING ABLE TO GET A DATE WITH A SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE female? 

NOPE. I CAN'T.  But, that is the situation for many in the US.  Rich men; Musicians; those with a powerful personality can still negotiate, but the US is clearly weighted down in this regard.

I know guys that do not treat women exceptionally well; are not particularly well off financially, and are the physical equivalent of a used cardboard box.  BUT, these residents of Russia; Romania; Colombia; The Dominican Republic ... they could have  - in most cases DO HAVE, there own harem of 8s, 9s, and 10s.  That is just the way it is.

I think it is important that we apply a real world measurement to your observations. 

Additionally, most men over the age of 30 in these other countries look like crap compared to an American man who is trying to keep himself in shape. 

[Mars]

The original question is answered by simply realizing that the heart has an appetite all its own and that men (and women for that matter) do not act rationally in matters of the heart.  The heart wants what the heart wants.

Your reply is not in the context of what is generally happening with men and women on this board.

You are referring to situation where man and woman spy each other at the office, at a friends party, at TGIF, etc.  There the man and woman are thrown together, so to speak, and shit happens.

Here we are talking about situation where man selects from web site, etc., the woman he will pursue.  He can be totally rational and simply ignore those who are of an inappropriate age, according to his own definition.

[IAmZon]

Directly to the contrary!  The Heart has an appetite all its own

You think this dynamic is ONLY at work in short term, spontaneous, and accidental matters?  I think not.  It is the foundation for most long term goal attainment as well.

Let's assume reasonable statistics where available that showed problems / failures resulting from cross cultural marriages with large age gaps and specifically where the living standard of the RW was greatly improved by the single virtue of, or the initial cause of, becoming married to an AM. 

I would imagine that the greater the distance between the to before/after points (very poor to very rich; no English/third world manners to modern and fluent; 30 year age gap - to same age) the greater the frequency of problems and higher percentage of failure.

Who would guess not?  I think this simple proposition is at the crux of all age / league discussions. However, it still is only a generalization!  There are exceptions to the rule.  I know if I buy I lottery ticket, I probably will not win ... but somebody is bound to.

So, if and when a AM sees that he can have a relationship and perhaps marry a woman younger more physically attractive woman than that which is rationally practical in his "community standard", it is no wonder that he goes forward often, despite his better judgement. 

How many beach front homes; sports cars; and yachts are sold each year to men who must struggle to afford them?  They ASPIRE.

NOW BEFORE YOU CLOBBER ME!  I am not suggesting that marriage is similar to the acquisition of a toy ... but I am certainly drawing a comparison between practical and less practical decision-making.

What is the cause?  Who's at fault?  The HEART, not the head.   DESIRE supersedes risk avoidant decision making in these cases; and if feelings and intentions are not genuine, generally everybody gets what they deserve in the long run.

And let's not forget that there is a lottery winner.  Who is to say?

[mies]

However, with some CAVEATS:

The USA is an extreme example of male sexual frustration today. In the US - to a lesser degree other western counties - the VALUE of a man is greatly decreased from where it was only 30 years ago (I am not saying it is right, or wrong. It just is).   Can you imagine a Russian; Romainian; Frenchman; or Argentino who is 35 - 55 years of age; intelligent; "not ugly"; and financially successful NOT BEING ABLE TO GET A DATE WITH A SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE female?  

NOPE. I CAN'T.  But, that is the situation for many in the US.  Rich men; Musicians; those with a powerful personality can still negotiate, but the US is clearly weighted down in this regard.

I know guys that do not treat women exceptionally well; are not particularly well off financially, and are the physical equivalent of a used cardboard box.  BUT, these residents of Russia; Romania; Colombia; The Dominican Republic ... they could have  - in most cases DO HAVE, there own harem of 8s, 9s, and 10s.  That is just the way it is.

I think it is important that we apply a real world measurement to your observations.  

Additionally, most men over the age of 30 in these other countries look like crap compared to an American man who is trying to keep himself in shape.  

I agree that 20-30-40 yo middle-to-upper class European or American men look on average much better than same class/age men in Russia/FSU. It most likely has to do with diet, lifestyle, and eagerness to exercise. I also see many sexually attractive females (or at least what I consider to be sexually attractive). And by sexually attractive I do not mean slutty outfit. Anyone can dress-up like a whore (look at the American girls dressed for Halloween).

I cannot judge how hard is it for US man to get a date with sexually attractive female. I know several AM who are in that age group and are currently single. I also know few who are 40-50 and currently single.
Those who are 40-50 feel very comfortable being single and as some has told me - never wanted to get married. I don't know what's going on in their private life - how many dates they are having or how often, but they don't look unhappy.
Those my single acquaintances who are younger - some never been married but had some long-term relationship in the past, some are divorced. In my impression - they do not really want to get a new girlfriend because they aren't completely over their past relationship, or they are not trying hard enough. For example - one friend complained to me that he cannot find a girlfriend, so I asked him how about the girl he met last weekend.  (The girl was American, a medical student - very smart, young, and hot.) My friend said it wasn't serious, he woke up in bed together with her after night of drinking, and then she left and he was not interested in meeting her again and he never called her back. And that he had met a bunch of "not serious girls" in the past. So - it does not look to me like this guy is lacking sex, or can't get dates with sexually attractive girls. He makes certain mistakes himself, and for some reason - he thinks that those girls are not serious. Maybe they aren't indeed, but I don't think he is doing proper things.
Another acquaintance of mine - does not mind having easy-going dates, but does not want to have long-term commitments. So girls do not stick with him for long-term - either they break up with him, or he breaks up with them.
I think the problem for American men (and women) - is not in the diminishing role of male in society - but in rather complex civil law system. It is too costly to get married with a wrong person. It is too risky to marry anyone, or to get close with anyone. It is too risky to accumulate common property, to have children together and so on. And people value their financial stability and security far more than anything else. Everyone is too independent.

I also know two american guys in their 40s dating 20yo  american college girls. Guys are very fit, 'have it all' - looks, income, flashy cars/houses etc. I don't think girls mind the age gap, guys look quite happy too. Guys do not take girls seriously though, and they do not want commitment nor families with these girls. Girls, for now, do not mind just dating. I don't know how their relationship will evolve as girls grow older/wiser.

I have never met a 50+ yo american with 20yo american girlfriend (in non-celebrities circle that is).

Another story: a female friend of mine recently graduated from college and moved to another state. She sold her house (she is from well-off family and done some successful investments too, her new job pays over 100K). Before moving to a new place - she made a plan:
- rent downtown apartment for 1 year - to be close to people and have more chances to meet a man
- find a man during this year
- marry him and buy a common house - the two of them will contribute, and therefore they will have a bigger house
- start family, have children

Very logical, mechanical, and rational plan. Primary purpose not to find love - but to find a good partner to buy large house with, and to have financial stability.
Is it really easy to find a man to fall in love with in a 1-year term? How many other women like this are there? (I don't think my friend is the only one like this)
She looks OK. Not superhot, but quite attractive.

I am not making any conclusions from these stories. Just sharing my observations of US life. Maybe it is harder for AM to get a date with sexually attractive AW in a same manner as RMs are getting their dates with RWs. But maybe it is not that hard to find a partner to start a family with. But men avoid risks? Or women avoid risks too?
I do have many American friends in their 30s with families and children.

What do you think?

[IAmZon]

Modern society / modern advertising creates an obsession with youth and beauty - both male and female.  (This goes beyond the genetic pattern of look for a mate with strong teeth and good symmetry:)   So, there is a strong difference in how age groups behave.  I most cities in the US, there is a "youth cut off" that happens about 30 years of age.  In New York and LA that cut off might go to 40 years of age.  Under the cut off, everything is even.  After the cut off things change for the man and the woman.

Most of the men at RWD are beyond the cut off, so my remarks are directed to that group (and that is where I live anyway). I have several friends that are happy being single and have healthy dating lives. They are at the top of the class. But, I think something is missing in a person that is "happy" being single for life.  Just my opinion. And to compare my recent dating life with my friends in the US, no contest. The rules are different in the US and it does not make the man's choices greater.

You wrote: "I think the problem for American men (and women) - is not in the diminishing role of male in society - but in rather complex civil law system. It is too costly to get married with a wrong person. It is too risky to marry anyone, or to get close with anyone. It is too risky to accumulate common property, to have children together and so on. And people value their financial stability and security far more than anything else. Everyone is too independent."

This only contemplates material assets, and people's incorrect priorities. And, of course that is part of it. 

But, when I live in South America, I FEEL different as a man with a woman because of:
1, I provide a sense of security (there is no reliable 911.  So a man IS a man.  Not a mannequin).
2, I provide resources - dinner; transportation; etc... (There is a different kind of appreciation and generosity at work here)
The difference is remarkable as it becomes manifest in the man / woman relationship.  (And do not perceive my comments in the stereotype of a devious sex tourist.  Rather, most of my relationships have been sincere and good, and not short.)

These are the primary attributes of being a man as the story of humanity tells it: Protection and Security.  Resources and Assets.  In less than a generation that has changed.  I am not saying it is right, or wrong.  I am just making a stark realization.

[Gator]

My friend said it wasn't serious, he woke up in bed together with her after night of drinking, and then she left and he was not interested in meeting her again and he never called her back.

That story is told a million times a day, not only now but well into the past. 

Mies, most of your comments are not about age gaps, yet do touch on some key issues of the state of marriage and dating in America.  I do not claim to be an expert, yet have my own observations, the observations of my two sons (29 and 25), and the observations of single friends (mainly 50+).

Another acquaintance of mine - does not mind having easy-going dates, but does not want to have long-term commitments. So girls do not stick with him for long-term - either they break up with him, or he breaks up with them.

How do you know my 29-yo son?!    This is the same attitude as a 51-yo friend, who refuses to date seriously anyone who has something that eats (kids, pets).  He rather be alone than face the inevitable questions such as, "Why is our relationship not advancing?"

I think the problem for American men (and women) - is not in the diminishing role of male in society - but in rather complex civil law system. It is too costly to get married with a wrong person.

That is a large part of the reasoning.

And people value their financial stability and security far more than anything else. Everyone is too independent.

Money and independence are two key issues.  A common saying from my 20-something days was that two people could live as cheaply as one.  That is not the prevalent case today.  It seems today that both the husband and wife must work to buy a house, own two cars, etc.  If the couple has kids, the mother must still work and daycare becomes an issue.  If the couple does not have kids, one can only question why they are married.

I also know two american guys in their 40s dating 20yo  american college girls. Guys are very fit, 'have it all' - looks, income, flashy cars/houses etc….I don't think girls mind the age gap, guys look quite happy too. Guys do not take girls seriously though, and they do not want commitment nor families with these girls. Girls, for now, do not mind just dating.

Ah, one of my golfing friends.  He is good looking, has a delightful personality and is never interested in marrying again. 

I do have many American friends in their 30s with families and children.

 

How are they doing?  My son’s married friends are doing well.  All, however, are DINKs.

But maybe it is not that hard to find a partner to start a family with.

My 29-yo son and his unmarried friends say the better women are already married. They have not met anyone who justifies the risks:  the costs of marrying (not just money but independence), the issue of kids, the high frequency of divorce among seemingly compatible people, the costs of divorce, etc.

Perhaps the only thing saving marriage is the fact that humans are hardwired to live as couples.