western men of above average income??

[SANDRO43]

My pension puts me in the farming category - awkward for a city dweller living in his debt-free apartment, maybe I should consider swapping it for a caravan , to fit in the poll grid .

[Jumper]

Jooky - i agree!!
and ive lived it on both sides afterall?




I was just hoping the piont of the thread was to clear up the misunderstandings,
not persecute anyone for thier personal standards ..
 
as you ,mentioned 50K in areas of the US,can be stretched very far and certainly provide  a
better family life that the same average in the FSU.

so  RW listing in a marrage agency, are hoping for a better life! of course! ("just" how better is the crux i suppose?)  
and both the WM and RW are wishing for  a good place to have a famly-

So from yahoo news today ..
The top ten best US cities for families
(villages!! because there is this HUGE cultural gap about living in the CITY, verses the wests often preferience of living the suburbs and nearby towns, you wont find a major USA city listed as a great place to raise a family)

http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/americas-best-place-to-raise-your-kids.html


#1
Tinley Park, Illinois
Nearest city: Chicago
Population: 54,491
Median family income: $90,377
Runners-up: Arlington Heights, Schaumburg  (note that nearby Mount Prospect was #1 last year)

 (I live very near here,, and a very very similar town by the way,  and yes our "family" income is about this average,most families here
both work, at least part time)
(Chicago area)

Arcadia, California
Nearest city: Los Angeles
Population: 55,817
Median family income: $83,480
Runners-up: Monterey Park, Diamond Bar

Warner Robins, Georgia
Nearest city: Macon
Population: 49,515
Median family income: $62,715
Runners-up: Valdosta, Roswell

Honolulu, Hawaii
Nearest city: Honolulu
Population: 377,399
Median family income: $74,504
Runners-up: Hilo

Quincy, Massachusetts
Nearest city: Boston
Population: 92,181
Median family income: $74,160
Runners-up: Weymouth, Barnstable Town

Woodbury, Minnesota
Nearest city: St. Paul, Minn.
Population: 58,566
Median family income: $114,156
Runners-up: Rochester, Eagan


Tonawanda, New York
Nearest city: Buffalo
Population: 57,922
Median family income: $63,827
Runners-up: Irondequoit, Cheektowaga

Beaverton, Oregon
Nearest city: Portland
Population: 87,676
Median family income: $78,946
Runners-up: Corvallis, Eugene

Clarksville, Tennessee
Nearest city: Nashville
Population: 118,209
Median family income: $53,795
Runners-up: Hendersonville, Johnson City

San Marcos, Texas
Nearest city: Austin, Tex.
Population: 45,366
Median family income: $53,690
Runners-up: San Antonio, Houston



These are considered the top TEN places to raise a family in the USA,this year,
 based on cost of living, schools, parks, general atmosphere of
the neighborhood, income, housing.and other factors like local culture, amusement, entertainment, libraries etc.

of course they are debatable,
but they illustrate a point well?


Notice the median housing costs , and income?

income is FAMILY income, by the way, and yes in the west both adults typically work
(amusingly this is also equaly true in FSU families,as many many RW women work ,
but in AW/RW discussion groups this knowledge seems to disappear)


*If* some of the top ten "family " places in the west ,
with thier rather average housing and incomes ,,
and plenty of truly happy families in them,
looks a bit "Low" to your average RW looking abroad,

it illustrates the misconceptions that exist?

I have lived in many many countries.

Those top ten cities mentioned,,in the average situation offer a nice  lifestyle,
and while i am not putting the FSU down, sorry but certainly a much higher lifestyle than the average family there.

yet it is not enough perhaps?  



this is meant to be informative..
and clear the air of what is "normal"!!!

These families in these towns typically enjoy a lifestyle that is far from glamorous.

RW should avoid them like the plague if they dream of living in a major cities "center" ,
and having a life as depicted on most sticoms or tv shows  

no juegements on countries, but those same families enjoy a lifestyle that , is on average, well above the average FSU family.


Reaching for something better is a good thing.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
being realistic in your grasp is also?
that's true for both sides in these equations?



Groov, well said-
and my panties are not bunched i hope lol, as  I know the provider /husband drill well enough over my life

i was just hoping to supply the "concrete" which seems to be so missing ?

a true comparison of average western family life, to average FSU family life would be enlightning ?
( i know it well, just do not have the numbers or stats for the FSU)

I guess its amusing to me,since i've supported my family here,(hopefully quite well,,new home, new vehicles,entertainments,designer shopping forays lol )  and one extended family in ukraine for many years now....

 

some of the speculations, without the "concrete"
is perhaps why you see the "reactions"??

[BillyB]

So what's wrong or more shallow about a woman looking for love, but also someone who can financially support her and a family?

Absolutely nothing wrong with a woman who wants an man who can support a family. The problem people have with Brave Girl is that she considers a man who makes $49,999 a year to be a poor man that she would have nothing to do with. She has an unrealistic view of what that money can buy but she does know that kind of money will not keep her happy. Maybe if she said she needs a man who makes $1,000,000 a year to support a family and keep her happy, the point of this debate will be clearer on why it strikes a nerve with many people.

I wish I could find a woman who makes big bucks but I am open to marrying a woman who does not work because what makes me happy goes beyond what money can buy. Not even a hot looking hooker that can provide fantastic sex everyday can make me a happy man. Although I wouldn't expect a woman to work, I wouldn't expect her to marry me if I was unemployed. I don't expect her requirements financially to be lower than mine when searching for a life partner.

Groove, I don't consider the debate here widespread panty bunching. BG made a statement. People reacted. Many men implied BG is not the girl for them. No man replied BG is their type of woman. I can set my standards high too and state "Me and my friends won't date a woman that looks below a 9 out of 10 on the beauty scale since it won't make us happy unless we achieve our dream." When all the women come out and post "looks alone won't make you happy and you will probably die a lonely and unhappy man.", is it okay for me to claim they got their panties all bunched up for something I said that is not only shallow but having expectations completely outside the norm for most people? They are probably right that I would die a lonely and unhappy man. Will the statements being made by both sides reveal more about those ladies or reveal more about me?

[Misha]

also think most men know and accept the idea that they are going to be evaluated on their ability to provide during courtship, but then get touchy when someone like bravegirl tries to understand it in concrete terms, with specific $$ thresholds.

The main advantage with dating in Russia is that there were MANY single, available women. I could easily set up a date with a woman that I was interested in meeting in an hour or less. I wouldn't have gotten "touchy" meeting a woman like brave girl, I would simply have moved on. Again, men have choices and I have no pity for those who whine as they could have moved on and found somebody else. The same is true for the women: if they thought they could land themselves an oligarch or a man earning X dollars, they should simply have continued their search until the found a man fitting their desires.

[groovlstk]

I wouldn't have gotten "touchy" meeting a woman like brave girl, I would simply have moved on.

Misha, I would hope for her own sake that brave girl has enough grace not to ask such blunt questions when she's setting up a date. However, I believe most if not all women make the same evaluations she's doing in this thread, yet do it privately.

[GQBlues]

Once we all removed the onion-like layering or points and counter-points as to the significance of money, affluence, affordability - or lack thereof; Brave Girl's post is really not that much different from when we tell men to make sure they can easily or honestly afford this venture.

0-50K: frankly even if I was living in a city where that may be deemed enough, I would be more than apprehensive to chase tails in FSU for the obvious reason. There are costs involved in this experience that are constant regardless of income. Further, 50 grand/year for an average American couple is NOT the same as 50 grand/year to an AM with a newly arrived Russian bride with 'a' suitcase couple. Many of you already know the cost implications in these affairs so I don't need to elaborate on this.

Lastly, I would wonder how many of you folks really understand what living 'poor' is really like. Exactly how many of you really WAS poor? Living in poverty in the US, FWIW, hardly defines living 'poor' in it's purest definition.

Love ain't paying for those trips to FSU, money does. OR, if you didn't have money, how can you afford to look for BIG LOVE in FSU?

Money is not the most important thing to have in life, but it sure helps to enjoy life with those important to you..

[groovlstk]

Groove, I don't consider the debate here widespread panty bunching. BG made a statement. People reacted.

I agree, what I was pointing out was that people overreacted, as men here tend to do whenever a Russian woman openly states her desire for one or more of the following qualities in a boyfriend or husband:

1. A handsome man
2. A man who is financially secure
3. A man who is within a few years of her age

As RussianWind found out, mention any of the above and the moralizing about true love and anecdotes about unhappy wealthy people always follow, usually by the same guys who can openly discuss how to do a WMVM trip or what gifts to bring, etc. without worrying that their approach is too business-like.

[Turboguy]

0-50K: frankly even if I was living in a city where that may be deemed enough, I would be more than apprehensive to chase tails in FSU for the obvious reason.

Well as the voting stands at the minute almost one out of 5 of the RWD voters are doing exactly that GQ.   I am assuming those guys would disagree with you.   I am sure love isn't paying for those trips but I have seen people who managed money well do better on $ 50 grand than others who make 3 times that.  

[BillyB]

Interesting how men with shallow pockets speak about BIG LOVE when topic is about finances??     brave girl

I want to go back to this quote and blend it in with an example of what I mentioned earlier to Groove.

Say I created a thread about gorgeous women and I got ganged up on by most women based on what I said and then I defended myself by saying "Interesting how women who are ugly speak about BIG LOVE when the topic is about beautiful women." Some of those "ugly", under a 9 out of 10 on the beauty scale, women posting could be the wives of members here.

What would that say about me BG? What does it say about you? Since I'm a man and not many here are interested in getting into my pants, people here would be a whole lot less forgiving with me than they have been with you. They would be outraged by my comments but women tend to get away with more than men. It still doesn't mean you should push the limits because you could get away with it based on your gender. Show class and good manners occasionally especially if you want to catch a better and/or richer man.

[groovlstk]

I want to go back to this quote and blend it in with an example of what I mentioned earlier to Groove.

I thought her sarcastic response was perfectly appropriate given that guys had already insulted her and labelled her a gold digger. 

[brave girl]

I also think most men know and accept the idea that they are going to be evaluated on their ability to provide during courtship, but then get touchy when someone like bravegirl tries to understand it in concrete terms, with specific $$ thresholds. As long as a woman states her desire in vague terms, most are OK with it, but specific $$ amounts results in widespread and comical panty-bunching

Correct! 

Men with small pockets does not want to see or hear about truth!  Many scandalous tones with answers to my question shows this!!  brave girl

[Misha]

However, I believe most if not all women make the same evaluations she's doing in this thread, yet do it privately.

I am sure they do, and I have a great deal of respect for women who know what they want and simply move on immediately if they know that a guy is not for them for whatever reason. Both men and women are free to say no and continue looking when dating. We are make our own choices in life, but I expect people to live with the consequences of their choices and not seek to blame others when the choices they made led to results not to their liking.

[Ade]

Correct! 

Men with small pockets does not want to see or hear about truth!  Many scandalous tones with answers to my question shows this!!  brave girl

Even those of us with pretty deep pockets aren't interested in gold diggers don't ya know.

And no, I've nothing against a woman that looks for love with men that are able to support a family comfortably but that's a long way from women that puts wealth ahead of love.

Call me a romantic fool if you like.

[GQBlues]

Well as the voting stands at the minute almost one out of 5 of the RWD voters are doing exactly that GQ.   I am assuming those guys would disagree with you.  

If those guys feel they can, then of course more power to them TG. Knowing what I know now, IMO, if I was to start this today and making 50G - as well as I have managed myself financially - I wouldn't do it. Why? Because if I managed my financials well to begin with, I wouldn't be in this search in the first place, yes? 50G for a financial well-managing person is great - but add another person who absolutely do not have the same accompaniments in life against that sum will not be one I would define as a 'good money-manager'. You're adding (literally) a 100% expense, if not more, against the same income with little or no addition to that amount in the very near future (someone will likely exaggerated and say something like - yeah, but he's got more asset than Trump, etc., or speculate he was able to 'save' 50G in preparation for this experience...).  

First year associated costs alone will definitely impact that sum. 2 grand for AOS - plus trip back home, added food and household expense, education/classes, car (?), health related costs, life insurance and her future welfare planning investment, etc...I will not even add any cost for pleasure trips to show her around your state/country. I will just assume she's so in love with you she'll be basically content to sit at home everyday of the week waiting for you with a hot meal to come home.  

Can it be done? I'm sure it can TG. Likely many do. I just won't be one of them.

[Makkin]

Brave Girl,


  My friend is looking for a lady in the FSU and he lives in his home that is all paid for. His assets are large enough and he has worked hard to establish himself in the industyr that he works in.
  His ability and finacial workings are very interesting in that he can afford most anything he wants. His keen awareness affords him the ability to not allow you or most other women to know how much money he makes or how much he is "worth".
  many men are keen and many men are not keen to protect themselves from ladies such as yourself and this all comes down to common sense. I doubt you will find many men who want to bid or fill out an application for love interests and by setting a financial standard that you may not understand in the first place with make your process and hunt possibly last years and years...lol


Makkin

[Misha]

First year associated costs alone will definitely impact that sum. 2 grand for AOS - plus trip back home, added food and household expense, education/classes, car (?), health related costs, life insurance and her future welfare planning investment, etc...I will not even add any cost for pleasure trips to show her around your state/country. I will just assume she's so in love with you she'll be basically content to sit at home everyday of the week waiting for you with a hot meal to come home. 

Can it be done? I'm sure it can TG. Likely many do. I just won't be one of them.

In my case, I actually saved money when it came to food and household expenses as I was eating out less often and putting more effort into preparing nutritious meals at home. My wife's frugality also ensured that we saved money in other household expenses.

Education: ESL classes are free from immigrants to Canada;
Health: I paid $60 for a doctor's visit before my wife got her provincial health care card. No other additional expenses to speak of after that.
Car: well, it perhaps cost $100 in fees for my wife to pass her exams to get her driver's license and I paid $70 for one hour of driver's education to get some pointers as to helping my wife pass the her driver's exam.
Trips back home: she went once in 3 years. Sure, an expense but hardly an onerous one. In a couple years we will likely try to bring her mother over for a trip.

You are right in that each case is different. I can't complain that I am spending large sums of money simply because I am married to a RW.

[BillyB]

I thought her sarcastic response was perfectly appropriate given that guys had already insulted her and labelled her a gold digger.  

I don't want to be labeled a sex tourist although I love sex. I don't want to be labeled shallow although I lust for beautiful women. I also know happiness isn't one dimensional. I like to think I'm an intelligent man for my age and I know how to put my words together so when I speak there is a clear understanding and not a huge debate on whether or not I'm not a sex tourist and shallow on these issues. I hope BG learned a lesson from this to avoid from having to trade insults with others next time. There are a lot of RW that just doesn't care how anybody else feels when they speak. I hope BG isn't one of them.

As far as being a gold digger, she has yet to deny it and danced around the questions asked of her. How hard is it to discuss how important love is in a relationship for her and how she would react if her man lost his job or went bankrupt? We could put all assumptions to rest.

[Turboguy]

GQ, I have to agree with Misha.   Why do you feel expenses would double.    Do most expect to set up a second household for their woman?   Housing is a big budget item for many and will not change at all for most.    I am probably spending less married than I did single.  One big expense I don't have any more is trips to the FSU searching.   My housing costs are the same, maybe less since she keeps a tighter reign on the thermostat than I did and keeps after me for turning off lights etc.  I eat out less so food is probably down.  AOS was a one time thing and not that expensive.  Less than you quoted.   Yes, there are trips home but that is not a big deal.  I have education expenses I didn't have before but that will pay off in the long run.  ESL classes were free but she prefers to learn on her own and can learn faster that way.   Yes, I have a little extra clothing expense and one more driver on my insurance but all in all the costs for married life are not that much different.  Certainly not 100% as you state.  

No one thinks there is anything wrong with having a good income which it sounds like you do.  Lots of others do feel they can do this just fine on a smaller income.  You might not agree but you are wrong.

[GQBlues]

Misha-

If 'he' was eating out all the time before he got married - that took him out of being the good money manager grouping now, doesn't it?

ESL is free here, too but it hardly help extends her knowledge of the language beyong the basics. 3 months of ESL - she's done. Now what?

Health Insurance generally can be added from the spouse's employer (assuming it is available) but again, that's subjective. I didn't have medical cost the first year, but to believe the likelihood of that happening is good for everyone then the point is being missed.

Car lesson was hardly what I was speaking about. It is the cost of one, mantenance, gas, etc...if he's living in an average metropolitan city where public transportation is readily available, then there are extenuating additional cost associated to living in the city, yes? Further one is from 'downtown' (then having a car becomes huge again) the likely cheaper the cost of living is.

[GQBlues]

GQ, I have to agree with Misha.   Why do you feel expenses would double.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Like I said, I'm sure many do this with the stated amount of income. All I'm saying it isn't something *I* would do if I was in that position. It was never a question if it's doable or not - it was simply a question of 'choice'. I cited why I will not.

Again, if your marriage is saving you money for eating at home instead of dining out before - then that disqualified you from being the well-managing person we sampled, yes?

e.g. expense was for 'personal' not the 'fixed expense'.

[Misha]

If 'he' was eating out all the time before he got married - that took him out of being the good money manager grouping now, doesn't it?

In my case, I have learned quite a bit from my wife when it comes to money management and frugality The point nonetheless is that you cannot generalize from one's own experience to all.

ESL is free here, too but it hardly help extends her knowledge of the language beyong the basics. 3 months of ESL - she's done. Now what?

My wife has been at it for two years now, and she is now upgrading her skills (for free) with adult education. Yes, in a few years, she will likely go back to university, but that will be a few thousand per year at most here in Canada.

Health Insurance generally can be added from the spouse's employer (assuming it is available) but again, that's subjective. I didn't have medical cost the first year, but to believe the likelihood of that happening is good for everyone then the point is being missed.

Does not apply to someone from Canada. The only real out-of-pocket expenses that I would have to cover would be prescription drugs, but my plan at work would cover most of the cost.

Car lesson was hardly what I was speaking about. It is the cost of one, mantenance, gas, etc...if he's living in an average metropolitan city where public transportation is readily available, then there are extenuating additional cost associated to living in the city, yes? Further one is from 'downtown' (then having a car becomes huge again) the likely cheaper the cost of living is.

Each couple is different. We have one car. I bike whenever and wherever possible in the summer. My wife is now working and she keeps everything that she earns and she has proposed using these savings to buy a car when the time is right.

[GQBlues]

This must be the comic segment...

You went from:

You are right in that each case is different.

To:

The point nonetheless is that you cannot generalize from one's own experience to all.

Forget the fact that what I have been saying ALL ALONG, if it was ME...

FWIW, my wife's higher education was front and center for me in terms of priority along with making sure her welfare is well grounded in our society. Cooking me hot meals everyday was never the cause I aspired in my search for a life partner in FSU, and I don't even speak Russian. 

[Misha]

Forget the fact that what I have been saying ALL ALONG, if it was ME...

Yes, and I shared my experience about ME. 

[Turboguy]

My disagreement with what you said GQ is first the statement that expenses would double for two.   Housing is a big cost of living expense and it won't usually double although there could be some RW who are not happy with the way the guy lives and in those cases it could double so you are not entirely wrong. 

I mentioned eating out.  When I ate out, it was lunch only.  5 bucks at MickeyD's which would give me an extra half hour of productive working time is no reflection on my money management.   Now I go home for lunch and it is ready when I get there so I am not losing time but save as much as the extra groceries add to my expenses. 

Education can be a big expense.   So far ours haven't been bad but when she changes schools down the road then it will go up a lot which is still a good investment in my book and I am happy to spend every penny even though I must make a fraction of what you do. 

So, a gal with a finished education was a requirement for you.  I have to wonder if you have all this money why that was a big deal for you?

So, if you didn't have this great big income you wouldn't try it, or so you say.   I think when someone wants something they find ways to overcome the obstacles and for some that could be an obstacle to overcome.   Still I think you would find there are ways to do most anything you really want to do in life.

Sorry GQ, but when it comes time to discuss a subject, a couple of guys married to a RW would have a little more experience about what expenses are or are not involved than someone in the looking stage.  The cost is no big deal.

[Jumper]

The loss of perspective even amoung people that live in the west is what seems comical

as example: Lets have a american woman post that the average family income in the USA isn't enough?
now granted  she likely wont be berated? as its her personal choice,..??

but she certainly would get feedback that if she comes from the average situation,odds are she will marry into it as well?
and yes ,hard  questions would likely  be asked on what she offered specifically,that led her to feel entitled to live
'better" than most people lives?    brains?beauty? etc ??? or maybe willingness and abilty to help the family toward that goal?

these questions would not arise?
what if this American woman was from a low income area and background ? no questions then either?
 interesting.


USA-
In 2007, the median annual household income rose 1.3% to $50,233.00 according to the Census Bureau.[4] The real median earnings of men who worked full time, year-round climbed between 2006 and 2007, from $43,460 to $45,113. For women, the corresponding increase was from $33,437 to $35,102. The median income per household member (including all working and non-working members above the age of 14) was $26,036 in 2006.[5] In 2006, there were approximately 116,011,000 households in the United States. 1.93% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $250,000.[6] 12.3% fell below the federal poverty threshold[7] and the bottom 20% earned less than $19,178.[8] The aggregate income distribution is highly concentrated towards the top, with the top 6.37% earning roughly one third of all income, and those with upper-middle incomes control a large, though declining, share of the total earned income.[3][9] Income inequality in the United States, which had decreased slowly after World War II until 1970, began to increase in the 1970s until reaching a peak in 2006. It declined a little in 2007.[10] Households in the top quintile, 77% of which had two or more income earners, had incomes exceeding $91,705. Households in the mid quintile, with a mean of approximately one income earner per household had incomes between $36,000 and $57,657. Households in the lowest quintile had incomes less than $19,178 and the majority had no income earner.[11]


This is certainly no huge salary average,, but it is far higher than any FSU "average" family standard
(perhaps Moscow should be the huge exception)

While nothing glamourous, this is no step down for any average FSU citizen.
and it is certainly not trailor park, which was the threads initial question?

So yes its pretty obvious most RW marrying a western man , marry one that is above average income.

very few,if any ,marry someone in a trailor park- its a forum myth in my opinion.
(whose salary would still be greater than the FSU average families,perhaps  ironically)


This reaction in the thread wasnt  about RW looking for a better life when marrying abroad (duh)
it seems to have changed to  just how much "better" over the standard she currently lives.??.
and wether its an "expectation"
 or instead a goal to attain together with her husband (in any country, even her own)?