Why are some members on here, arrogant?

[Handycam72]

 
 Handy, it was not the content of the story as much as your delivery of the story.  It seemed very one sided to me, in that you did not accept any accountability for what happened to you.  The reason the teenager was able to take advantage of you day after day after day, was not her high level of scamming skills but your total reluctance to react to very simple tactics she used.  Ever hear the saying: "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."?

I have reread my story and I can see where your coming from. It does come across abit whiney in parts and I don't really take much accountability in it. Guess I will be sure to make a better delivery in future.

I am curious to know, what is this TG/PG story all about?

[I/O]

Photoguy (PG) is probably the most unrealistically romantic minded person you would ever come across with a heart of gold and a head of honeycomb as far as this type of thing is concerned. He became the resident whipping boy after a series of ridiculous clangers, in particular, a failed K-1 import with all that preceded, about which he defended his actions to the enth degree and refused any advice even after basically asking for it. If you wanted someone to take care of your baby sister or baby daughter, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone nicer, kinder or probably more trustworthy than PG. Unfortunately nice and this pursuit aren't always a good combination.

Turboguy (TG) is probably one of the most decent and kindly people you could dream of meeting hence everyone being aghast when you took the bat to him as it was just sooooooooooooooooo not correct. Nevertheless, our beloved TG has a slightly checkered history with facts and this tends to come to light in his defence of anyone downtrodden or anyone he feels is being unfairly treated, whether the treatment is presenting an accurate picture or not. TG is a supporter of the extreme risk and I am sure was the co author of "The power of positive thinking". TG will jump to the defence of anyone under the gun. TG has written comment in every age gap thread ever posted anywhere on the internet and I'm fairly sure he was writing articles in age gap debates for newspapers before you or I thought of the internet. To be fair, he has the courage of his convictions and married a lady 30 odd years younger.

The story condensed to PG being belted hell west and crooked which was in part his own making together with TG being his lone defender. I recall joining this board near the end of the saga having lurked and read through much of it. From an outsiders perspective it was about the most ridiculous and amusing exchange one could imagine. I laughed for hours reading various posts. Apparently the residual lingers...........

[Turboguy]

I am curious to know, what is this TG/PG story all about?

Just think blind men and elephants Handy.   You just got one blind man's opinion of what an elephant looks like, here is another. 

Photo Guy joined RWD in it's early days, a few days after me.  He posted for a few months without controversy, asking good questions making good comments.   A few months later he began to ask questions concerning a trip to Kiev to meet a lady he had been corresponding with.   I hooked him up with an excellent translator/ friend that I had used many times and off the Kiev he went to meet Larisa.

He spent 7 days with Larisa I believe in late April 2005.  He fell head over heals in love with her and had a really nice trip.  She was affectionate and romantic towards him but no sex and not even a kiss which might have changed everything on RWD. 

He returned from Kiev and posted on RWD.  He posted a detailed story of his trip along with a bunch of photos.  He was really taken with her but was concerned about if she was really into him.  He posted his concerns about this on RWD and this is where the problem started. 

To my view of the elephant, instead of saying, Doug, you should be really concerned about this and perhaps before proceding you might want to spend more time with her.  Usually if a RW is into you you know it and she seems to have left some doubts.  We are all sure she is a wonderful girl but a lifetime decision needs to be done with care and patients he got:

You are a stupid moron for thinking of doing a K-1 with a woman you have never kissed.  She is ugly and doesn't look like a quality woman.  She is trailer trash.  She is a low classed shop girl.  You are not much better yourself being a low classed bus driver.  You don't deserve a RW.   Your income is too low ($ 55,000) to afford to persue a RW.

To be continued:

[Turboguy]

Part 2.   

I will agree that I do sympathize with someone going through the so much undeserved emotional abuse.  He did not deserve what he got and his treatment was shameful.

Ken sort of believes that in supporting him I encouraged him down a road to disaster.  Personally my view of the elephant is that had his concerns been addressed calmly and reasonably I would not have needed to defend him and we could have all discussed the issues with less bias and more productivity.

Ken evidently also believes if I would have stayed out of it they would have clue batted him, humilated him and insulted him to the point of surrender and he would have been saved.  Personally I think he had to see it through win or lose.

I/O's analasis of PG is probably not that far off.  PG was probably a hopeless romantic. I also agree with his statement "you'd be hard pressed to find anyone nicer, kinder or probably more trustworthy than PG"

PG did ask to have the original thread removed and posted a new one where he tried to avoid the controversy and emphasise the positive.  I can't disagree with the altering history comment.

To be continiued.

[Turboguy]

Anyway PG did a K-1 visa for Larisa.   She came and spent 90 days with him and decided to return to Ukraine.   I am not sure what the ratio of K-1's that return are but it happens and enough that I don't think it proves that those who felt it was a train wreck in the making are "proven" right but yes, they were right.

Larisa had a father who was very sick.   She worked with orphans in the local orphanage.   Doug was a tour bus driver.  He took her along on some trips but usually she would stay home when he was driving and had to spend several days at a time alone.   Larisa was also shy and didn't feel comfortable making new friends even though several of the wives of Doug's RWD friends offered her friendship.   In the end, she missed being with the children in the orphanage, she felt a duty to help her Dad in his hour of need, she felt a lot of boredom as Doug did tours to the Grand Canyon, Vegas etc.   She decided to return home rather than marry. 

Doug was heartbroken but recovered.   He plowed himself into his photography and did his best to recover.    I believe Larisa's Dad died, she is back leading a rather dismal life and Doug will probably have some emptiness in his for a while.   I believe he was dating a local RW the last I heard.

  Oh really now?  That wasn't your position then.  You encouraged him to go through with his mislaid plan.

Ken, looking at the date of that post it was a few weeks before Larisa arrived.  Do you really think at that point in time there was any reason to try to talk him out of anything. 

[Turboguy]

RWD is a little calmer these days.  Some of the players who bashed PG are gone.  Anono was one who is long gone.  jb seldom pops in and he was one of the major players.  A few remain.  I recall in those days frequently suggesting we could do more good with a calmer more helpful RWD.  I haven't said that for ages so I do think it is far better now.   Dan has a really big challenge keeping the likes of us under control and really does an amazing job. 

I/O, the internet is vast.   I am sure somewhere in this electronic universe there is an age gap thread I have missed.  Perhaps I need to hunt harder.

I have always believed that life was a learning experience.  My hopes from my view of the elephant is the hope we can learn you can do more good by keeping things positive and helpful than you can trying to beat someone into submission. 

[I/O]

I/O, the internet is vast.   I am sure somewhere in this electronic universe there is an age gap thread I have missed.  Perhaps I need to hunt harder.

Nope, you've got 'em all.

Handycam: I've noticed forums and RWD is no exception tend to have a navel gazing session every so often. Very often, funnily enough, something positive comes out of it if you're patient enough to wait long enough. Watch the space here and now...........................

[KenC]

Handy,
You might be surprised to know that I think T/G's account is rather accurate, with of course a few differences of opinion.

In PG's first (and erased) T/R there was NO indication of any affection or romance at all.  Larisa was bodyguarded by a friend she insisted to bring along.  IIRC, the only time PG & Larisa were alone together is when she turned down his advances for a kiss.

The other embellishment I would point out is that the membership or the segment of the membership welding the clue bats did not all just of a sudden attack PG either.  A lot was brought upon by himself.  When PG began posting here, he was like a naive teenager, asking questions, sometimes silly questions, but all were answered in a kind and respectful manner.  I remember PG being like a nervous schoolgirl at her first school dance.  It was all kind of cute and everyone was falling over themselves to help him.  The helpfulness continued right up until PG rewrote his T/R.

There was such a stark difference between T/R #1 and T/R#2 that it was obvious that PG was blowing smoke up our collective arses.  That is when things began to get ugly.  When called out for his distortions and re-writting history, PG was full of denial and excuses without any substance to support his own two versions of the same story.

At this point PG had all the answers and became aggressive.  He started a thread "Assorted Knowledge and Wisdom I know" (sub titled "You wanna a piece of me?") in the no holds barred section that invited debate and conflict with the membership in general.  His challenge was met with enthusiasm.  Game on.

Even the inappropriate insults of Larisa were somewhat self induced by PG.  I made no comments regarding her education, job choice or looks in the threads.  Privately in PM's and emails, PG pressed me for my opinion.  After multiple answers of "My opinion doesn't matter, only yours counts", finally I told PG that Larisa was not my type and I thought that he could do better.  Literally, for years, I had PG claim that I posted Larisa was a dog.

I also would think that if T/G was half the friend to PG he thought himself to be that he would have shared his honest opinion on his chances for success.  Instead TG enabled PG's fantasy with his "go for it" encouragement.  Being nice does not counterbalance bad advice IMO.
KenC
(BTW, consider the hatchet buried after your last post to me)

[groovlstk]

To my view of the elephant, instead of saying, Doug, you should be really concerned about this and perhaps before proceding you might want to spend more time with her.  Usually if a RW is into you you know it and she seems to have left some doubts.  We are all sure she is a wonderful girl but a lifetime decision needs to be done with care and patients he got:

You are a stupid moron for thinking of doing a K-1 with a woman you have never kissed.  She is ugly and doesn't look like a quality woman.  She is trailer trash.  She is a low classed shop girl.  You are not much better yourself being a low classed bus driver.  You don't deserve a RW.   Your income is too low ($ 55,000) to afford to persue a RW.

To be continued:

I joined RWD and made my first trip around the same time PG did, and I don't recall the above sequence. I remember PG asking for and receiving sound advice, then rejecting it and arguing point by point about every minute detail that didn't jibe with his romantic view of his relationship. It didn't matter that they hadn't shared any affection before engagement, it didn't matter that she couldn't speak English, it didn't matter that they spent a week together before the K1 was filed.

This may be a comment on the reach and pull of RWD, but blaming TG and the cheerleaders who encouraged him or blaming the OMBs who attacked him is laughable - once PG made up his mind to bring this woman to the US, no one could have changed his mind or made him amend his plans. I'm sure everyone would feel better if there had been less acrimony but it wouldn't have changed anything.

[BC]

Literally, for years, I had PG claim that I posted Larisa was a dog.

IIRC the dog comment was made by anono, and the 'you can do better than a shop girl' or such remark when he locked horns with jb.

Things were clearly quite ridiculous at that point.

[KenC]

I joined RWD and made my first trip around the same time PG did, and I don't recall the above sequence. I remember PG asking for and receiving sound advice, then rejecting it and arguing point by point about every minute detail that didn't jibe with his romantic view of his relationship. It didn't matter that they hadn't shared any affection before engagement, it didn't matter that she couldn't speak English, it didn't matter that they spent a week together before the K1 was filed.

This may be a comment on the reach and pull of RWD, but blaming TG and the cheerleaders who encouraged him or blaming the OMBs who attacked him is laughable - once PG made up his mind to bring this woman to the US, no one could have changed his mind or made him amend his plans. I'm sure everyone would feel better if there had been less acrimony but it wouldn't have changed anything.

Groov,
An accurate recap IMO.  You are most probably correct in our thinking that anything written here had much, if any influence on PG's actions.  But nobody really will ever know for sure either. 
KenC

[Gator]

Things were clearly quite ridiculous at that point. 

Not just in regard to opinions, but based on the following two comments hard facts were ignored:

...the 'you can do better than a shop girl' or such remark when he locked horns with jb.

She worked with orphans in the local orphanage. 

But who knows the truth?  Re-writing a T/R just to deflect criticism is bizarre.  Rationalizing away red flags is bad enough but to pretend that they never existed is like a 3-yo kid closing his eyes to make something go away.  That's the zenith of living a fantasy.

Overall, it sounds like the PG saga was more entertainment than educational.  Knowing some of the players I probably would have been like I/O - looking forward to opening the thread to get a daily chuckle.  It must have increased readership of RWD.

Why didn't PG just drop RWD?  Again, very bizarre.  That is an exception to the opinion that "arrogant" posts will discourage newbies from posting. 

Perhaps harsh "arrogance" does discourage newbies from exposing their concerns and mistakes, yet I imagine it increases the number of newbie lurkers hoping to learn something from the accounts of brave newbies who stepped up to the plate to face some fastballs.  It is the newbies who click on ads.   

[Daveman]

I arrived just after the PG saga.  I didn't have the opportunity to read the first T/R for comparison with the second, however, what I did read in the archives was truly mind blowingly outrageous.  I also agree with Groov in that I think absolutely nothing other than the actual events of the scenario would have disrupted the flow of that fantasy.  Of course, KenC is correct as well in that we'll never really know.  I doubt we were actually privy to the story in its entirety.  Who know what really went on between them?  The scene unfolded before the members here from a one sided perspective altered through the rose colored glasses of a fantasy so anchored that even after the dream crumbled, he still held onto it seemingly justifying and rationalizing away the steps which led to the demise of that attempt.  So it appears that even the crash and burn didn't actually enable the learning process.  Who knows?

This is one venture where fantasyland dreams can really bite one on the butt.

[KenC]

Gator,

Not just in regard to opinions, but based on the following two comments hard facts were ignored:

Just for the record, this is the first I ever heard of Larisa or her father working with an orphanage.  An urban legend growing?  She was a manicurist and did use her free trip to Kiev to shop for supplies IIRC.  It did come out that Larisa's father was adamantly opposed to her coming to America and that he was an ill man. Which BTW, PG never knew before she came here on her K-1.
KenC

[I/O]

Overall, it sounds like the PG saga was more entertainment than educational.  Knowing some of the players I probably would have been like I/O - looking forward to opening the thread to get a daily chuckle.  It must have increased readership of RWD.

"Robust Discussion" IIRC was the term I used in opening discussions with Dan back then. Gator, you're right, it was too ridiculous not to read each day. Junkie stuff actually.

[Turboguy]

There was such a stark difference between T/R #1 and T/R#2 that it was obvious that PG was blowing smoke up our collective arses.  That is when things began to get ugly.  When called out for his distortions and re-writting history, PG was full of denial and excuses without any substance to support his own two versions of the same story.

KenC
(BTW, consider the hatchet buried after your last post to me)

Ken, as I recall it the abusive comments were in TR # 1.   TR # 2 was after all that and I believe there was some kind of request for no comments or no negative comments.   Yes, he did start a thread "You wanna piece of me" which was also after everyone was attacking him

Yes, It was jb who commented she was trailer trash and a lowly shop girl.  I do remember it as Anono who called her ugly.