My trip to Ukraine - Part three

[NickB]

A little bio of my second trip to Ukraine.  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=10394.0 and http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=10444.0 are reports of the first trip.

   This trip I wanted to see Helen and Nina again. Seems Helen and I have developed a nice report in emails and I'm anxious to meet her again. Nina is playing hard to get but not too hard. She can't make up her mind if she wants me to chase her or not. She doesn't want me too close or too far. If I was a psychiatrist I would say that she wants to be sure I'm serious and is putting me to the test. Fair enough.
Helen on the other hand seems the type of person who is more interested in what I can do for her.
More on all that later.

   My trip started with me making reservations a week ahead of my departure date and under some pressure. Mistake!
Do not make reservations when under pressure! I wanted to avoid Paris. My options were (among many) Amsterdam, London, Paris and Frankfurt as my entry point into Europe. I wanted to stop in Kiev because on the way out I wanted to spend a couple of days there to meet one woman. Her and I have had some wonderful communications via email and telephone. I like her personality and she speaks wonderful English.
Somewhere between a loss of communications to the company (main trunk went down) and my trying to research flights I booked to London.
   
   First mistake. Do not book thru London thinking one hour is enough between flights. I thought Paris was bad. London is 5 times worse. I had to walk miles, take trains and walk more miles to get from Terminal 5 to Terminal 2. Bottom line.. I missed my flight.

  Second mistake. I booked thru Prague on Czech airlines (good airline) and missed Kiev. So... here I am in London airport, missed flight. The lady behind the counter booked me to Prague later that day and on to Odessa the next morning. As I waited for the flight to Prague later that day I roamed the airport. Terminal 2 is scheduled to be closed in a few days and there was nothing there. Everything was closed except the coffee shop. Ok how about a big capp and a little food. Great! Somehow I forgot my wallet on the counter when I paid. A nice woman flagged me down and gave it back to me. Thank you nice woman!!!! While in the airport I booked a room in the Prague Holiday Inn at 95euro per night.

   Flight to Prague. Uneventful, slept most of the way. Food was a cheese sandwich and orange juice. Arrived in Prague and found the courtesy fone for Holiday Inn. "I need a shuttle van to pick me up" - "OK 15 minutes"... 15 minutes later I'm still standing outside freezing. While standing I see a Holiday Inn van parked across the street. No one around it. I go over to it and find it cold as a stone so it hasn't been driven in a while. I find a phone behind it and call again. "Ok 5 minutes". 15 minutes later I call again "Ok 5 minutes". "That's what you said last time. Hurry.. it's freezing out here". "click". A few minutes later there is the van. Tall, "big boned", blond girl driving it. I get in and off we go. She drives like a woman possessed, darting in and out of traffic, braking and accelerating hard.
Arrive in the hotel and find it to be very nice. Not your typical Holiday Inn. Room 412. Nice room, big bed, plenty of pillows, high speed internet but not cable, wonderful bathroom. I retrieve the ethernet cable and message a few that I've arrived in Prague and will be in Odessa tomorrow. Meetings are being set.
   Third mistake. In my sleep deprived state i typed a message into the translator and copied it. I pasted it into the wrong message box!!!! Now many many times I've had multiple windows open and have not had any problem with sending messages to the wrong party. This was a big one!
I had not told Katya, the woman I stayed with my first week in Odessa, that I was coming today but that I was coming next week. So when I pasted a message to her that I was in Prague and that I would be in my apartment in Odessa tomorrow... You can imagine the response. I didn't lie to her but I didn't tell her the entire story. I did not lead her on by telling her she was the only one or anything.. just that I would come back and visit her. I had planned to meet her the second week there but not let her know I was there the first week. Ooops. She asked "what?" and I told her everything. How I had planned to meet two women before I would spend the week with her. There goes the sweet red head. My fault. I should not have tried to play it like that.

   That event started me thinking. I've been online chatting with this one and that one and it's become an addiction. I do not go a day without chatting. Around every corner there is a woman and she's got something or says something that the last one didn't have or do. I've lost the original quest which was to find a nice woman to settle down with. Now I've turned into the thing I didn't want to become. I won't call it the sexual tourist because in my mind that is a man who comes strictly for sex. He knows why he comes here and that's all. I wasn't looking at the women as sex objects but more as "I think she would be more compatible than this one". Is there a name for that? Time to rethink my priorities.

   Ok so I thought about it as I fell asleep. I'll go as my original plan. Meet Helen, spend some time with her and if we don't hit it off I'll move on to the next. I'll give her my undivided attention and asses the situation based on real emotions and not hormones.
Next day.. off to Prague airport after a good shower and shave. I feel good! physically and mentally after the ordeal of the night before. Sad because I really liked Katya but no one to blame but me.
I stop in the duty free shop and pick up some Chanel No.5, Helen's favorite, and some chocolate.
Flight to Odessa is uneventful. Same sandwich only this time with water and coffee.

   The driver is there to meet me and off we go to the apartment I rented. This time of year the tourist business is very slow and I was able to get an apartment for $80 per night that normally rents for $150. I see why it rents for that. Very nice. Modern, fully loaded with all the good stuff and plenty big. You can feel the difference in quality from the last two I rented. Everything is much nicer.

   Helen calls. She's in the area and ready to meet. I drop my suitcase and run to meet her. We meet at the restaurant nearby. She has two suitcases!!
She is dressed to kill. Spike heal boots, skin tight skirt, black stockings. I grab her in a hug and lift her and the suitcases off the ground. She's laughing and talking and kissing me even though she can't move. I take her suitcases to the apartment, she gave her sign of approval when we went in, and we went to eat. Now if you remember she didn't speak any English and would not even try to use body language etc.. to try and communicate. It seems she has been studying and has loosened up a little. Now she can say a few words and is using her hands and face to communicate. Great! We're getting somewhere. After dinner we retire to the apartment and all is good. Next day she's off to work and I'm off to explore more.

   We meet at the restaurant below the flat when she gets off work. A nice meal, good wine and back to the apartment. We chit chat a while and my initial impression that she is out to get what she can is reinforced. She asked several times if i could help her with this and that. The next 4 days only make the feeling stronger.
Something that bothers me is she will not kiss me or allow me to kiss her. I have never experienced that before and I do not like it one bit. I won't even mention what it reminds me of. It will become a major stumbling block. I have questioned her about it and she says that "you are doing the right things". What ever that means. Forcing my tongue between her lips (that won't happen again)? Hand holding, snuggling, sleeping almost on top of each other stark naked but.. no kisses. Very strange.

More later.

[SMS60]

Something that bothers me is she will not kiss me or allow me to kiss her. I have never experienced that before and I do not like it one bit. I won't even mention what it reminds me of. It will become a major stumbling block. I have questioned her about it and she says that "you are doing the right things". What ever that means. Forcing my tongue between her lips (that won't happen again)? Hand holding, snuggling, sleeping almost on top of each other stark naked but.. no kisses. Very strange.

This reminds me of years ago and one paticular women. After I picked her up for a date (AW) I started noticing a faint foul smell. The closer I was to her the stronger it was. Finnally I realized it was either her body odor or bad breath. I narrowed it down to bad breath. It would actually knock you over. There was no way in hell I was going to kiss her much less stick my tounge in that smelly cavity. Could not wait to get her home.

[Jumper]

thanks for the trip report.

but more as "I think she would be more compatible than this one". Is there a name for that?

We used to call it "kid in the candy store syndrome"

easy to let happen.

[NickB]

We used to call it "kid in the candy store syndrome"

Describes it perfect.

Helen and I are going smoothly but... there is no chemistry between us. Sure I'm sexually attracted to her but the real chemistry is missing. The spark that sends vibrations thru you when you touch her or even hear her voice. It's not there.
I'll have a talk with her tonight and cut our time together short.
I really wanted it to work and spent 6 days with her last trip and she's lived here with me for 6 days this trip.

SMS60:
   Bad breath is not the problem. I think it's something psychological.

[boaterguy]

The impressions I have gathered about FSUW and real kissing is quite different. For some reason a real kiss is more serious than even having sex. They don't seem to play by the rules of the 4 bases. When an FSUW decides she is ready to have sex most I hear about seem to jump to homeplate. I have often wondered if it is because of the lack of privacy and when the opportunuty presents itself....Wham!

[NickB]

The impressions I have gathered about FSUW and real kissing is quite different. For some reason a real kiss is more serious than even having sex. They don't seem to play by the rules of the 4 bases. When an FSUW decides she is ready to have sex most I hear about seem to jump to homeplate. I have often wondered if it is because of the lack of privacy and when the opportunuty presents itself....Wham!

Interesting impression.
My initial thought was a trust thing. She had to trust me to kiss me which sounds crazy.

I questioned her directly "what is the problem with kissing?". Her direct reply "Kiss me any time you want, I am not opposed".
I haven't figured out how that ties in with "you are doing the right things".
Unless she just doesn't know how to kiss... She's inexperienced in love making?
That would explain many things.

[boaterguy]

Interesting impression.
My initial thought was a trust thing. She had to trust me to kiss me which sounds crazy.

I questioned her directly "what is the problem with kissing?". Her direct reply "Kiss me any time you want, I am not opposed".
I haven't figured out how that ties in with "you are doing the right things".
Unless she just doesn't know how to kiss... She's inexperienced in love making?
That would explain many things.

I have heard other guys stories that helped strenghten my opinion. In my case....A week into my 2nd trip(1st was almost 3 weeks together) I did something my now wife had been wanting me to do. She convinced me to shave off my well trimmed beard. I wasn't giving up my virgin mustache though! Well...after thoroughly hacking up one side of my face(my trimmer died and I had never used a razor!) she did the other side. I was sitting on the couch holding back my bloodfest from my work and she went into the kitchen to start dinner. I thought...WTH...I went back into the bathroom and shaved off my mustache! When she saw me it was over. After almost 4 weeks of face time and 3 weeks of trying to get a real kiss it finally happened...all the way to homebase in less than 10 minutes!

[NickB]

Darn it Boaterguy!

I haven't shaved my facial hair in.. well in decades!
I don't have stiff facial hairs but I suppose to that soft, supple skin of hers it might feel like a wire brush.
Shaving my face will be a big step.

[NickB]

After 5 days together Helen went back home for the night to check on her flat and shop for groceries for her daughter (19). She will return tonight after work.
I had plenty of time to think last night and I've reaffirmed my original thoughts that we are not that compatible.
We have almost nothing in common. We think differently on many things and I still get the overwhelming feeling that she's looking for someone to support her and the biggest block.. she speaks almost no English.
Anyway.. whatever her motives are I don't feel the spark and it's time to move on.

I have gone thru my list of woman to meet and looked at them with different set of criteria this time. Which are women I would truly have a chance at being in a serious relationship with. The top of the list is Lena. We have a few things in common, she's easy to talk with, no kids at home, she's got snap when we talk on the phone and her English is great. Self taught she says by studying books and watching TV. Interesting that her English is so good from this type of study.

Onward!!!

[boaterguy]

Darn it Boaterguy!

I haven't shaved my facial hair in.. well in decades!
I don't have stiff facial hairs but I suppose to that soft, supple skin of hers it might feel like a wire brush.
Shaving my face will be a big step.

I don't know how the feelings about facial hair in the FSU are now(this was 6 years ago). But it was highly recommended to me before I left on my tour to shave! I was told very few FSUW like facial hair. My wife's comments on Facial hair were only priests and bums have it!

[NickB]

Just as I was about to let go of Helen.. she calls and wants me to meet with her daughter to go over her English paper. Her daughter turns out to be a sweet young lady with really good manners and excellent English. I take her to eat and we spend an hour and a half going over her papers. Talk about difficult! I haven't been in class in many years (decades???) and she's talking infinitives. I struggled but I think we got thru it. Then she tells me that her mother really likes me and thinks I'm a good man then to top it off she gives me a present to bring back to my daughter.
Talk about tugging at the heart strings ((

It is an example of the people I find here. All have been kind and warm to me. Helpful and considerate and patient with my struggles. I have not met one that has been in a bad mood or in that constant state of anger I've seen in the US lately. I could easily live here permanent.

[NickB]

boaterguy.. you hit the nail on the head!!!
Yesterday I shaved everything about two hours before she got home from work and Bingo!!! There are those sweet kisses I've been missing!!
I couldn't stand to look myself in the mirror and my chin is cold but it was worth it!

Added:

We were having a conversation this morning about what we're going to do on the weekend. We'll go shopping for food and make some Red Borscht then she wants to go shopping at a bazaar that is a good ways away. She says there are good boots and coats there then she says "I want a new coat and the good ones cost about $700. Will you get one for me?". I say we will see what they look like first.

Now this may seem strange and to me it is a little forward but what really struck me was the priorities of her life.
Here she is making probably $300 to $400 a month and she's asking me for a $700 coat? I would think that with a daughter in college her priorities would be elsewhere..
I'm getting that "Sugar Daddy" feel and it's not pleasant.

[boaterguy]

boaterguy.. you hit the nail on the head!!!
Yesterday I shaved everything about two hours before she got home from work and Bingo!!! There are those sweet kisses I've been missing!!
I couldn't stand to look myself in the mirror and my chin is cold but it was worth it!

Added:

We were having a conversation this morning about what we're going to do on the weekend. We'll go shopping for food and make some Red Borscht then she wants to go shopping at a bazaar that is a good ways away. She says there are good boots and coats there then she says "I want a new coat and the good ones cost about $700. Will you get one for me?". I say we will see what they look like first.

Now this may seem strange and to me it is a little forward but what really struck me was the priorities of her life.
Here she is making probably $300 to $400 a month and she's asking me for a $700 coat? I would think that with a daughter in college her priorities would be elsewhere..
I'm getting that "Sugar Daddy" feel and it's not pleasant.

Glad the shaving tip helped!

About the shopping. My wife did sortta the same thing..but not nearly sold bold or pricey. We became engaged...this was before I shaved and I had extended her trip another week. She only had a couple of outfits. We met in Moscow and proceeded to go to Kiev. The 1st morning in Kiev,the minute we stepped out of the hotel she grabbed me by the hand and said "You are my future husband and you need to buy me clothes!". I actually didn't spent too much...I don't even remember...a sweater and maybe a blouse.

Her birthday was a couple of weeks after we were to say are goodbyes on this trip. On about the 5th day I told her I wanted to buy her a present for her birthday. This turned into an all day event! I would see things I liked and she would pass. I was actually hoping to buy her a nice business type suit as our plans were she was going to work with me in my business. After 1/2 a day I started stepping forward and pushing her on some of the outfits I liked. Turned out the reason she was passing was because she didn't think I wanted to spend so much.

Now my advice for you. You do not seem to be as far along with your lady. You need to put your foot down now and set the limits. I can honestly say my wife and my 1st 2 years together was a constant tug of war on how much she could spend to satisfy the fashionista in her! The strongest battles were the 3 trips I made to be with her while we awaited her K-1 approval. I new she needed more clothes...but paying the outlandish FSU prices was not on my plate. There were times she would pitch a fit like a 5 year old! Yes, I did give in once in a while. When she came to the states we spent several days shopping and buying clothes...Yes! She admitted she was wrong and understood why I wanted to wait til we came to the states. There was peace for about a month. Then the nasty face of gaining weight hit her. Most of these lady's require their clothes to fit perfectly ya know. So once again the battles began. My wife's sizes went from a 2-4 range all the way up to 10-12 and then back down to the 2-4 range over the course of 2 years. I spent more money on clothes during that 2 years than I did the previous 25 years, of which I was married for 22 years and had twin boys.

One of the biggest battles was teaching her to be a savvy shopper. My point finally sunk in when she found a blouse which had just arrived in one of the major departments stores. I think it was a bit more than $100. She had to have it!(She won this battle) I tried and tried to get her to be patient because 9 times out of 10 these type of clothes end up drastically reduced in a month or so. Bingo! We walked into the store a month or so later and the 1st thing she saw was the exact same blouse marked down to around $30! My rantings finally sunk in!

Our battles ended when we finally agreed upon a budget or fixed amount per month for her to maintain her wardrobe. My wife has become quite the savvy shopper now.

Good luck with your lady. Even if the cost of this coat is only a dime for you, you are setting the stage for how your relationship evolves. I personally think it is way over the top. I consider it a RED FLAG. I could have turned my wife loose with a credit card, and so long as she didn't hit the movie star designer shops I would not have been financially strained. But! I am not the type of person to spend money in this way. These thoughts of mine I think you should evaluate in yourself and what you are willing to bear.

Another point I would like to make is quite a few FSU lady's really do believe westerners have money trees. They can be calmed down, but, either they are frugal or they are shopaholics!

[Mars]

We were having a conversation this morning about what we're going to do on the weekend. We'll go shopping for food and make some Red Borscht then she wants to go shopping at a bazaar that is a good ways away. She says there are good boots and coats there then she says "I want a new coat and the good ones cost about $700. Will you get one for me?". I say we will see what they look like first.

Now this may seem strange and to me it is a little forward but what really struck me was the priorities of her life.
Here she is making probably $300 to $400 a month and she's asking me for a $700 coat? I would think that with a daughter in college her priorities would be elsewhere..
I'm getting that "Sugar Daddy" feel and it's not pleasant.

I would not spend one additional hour with this gal . . . ever.

Good looking prostitute would probably be only $30-50 in Odesa.

[groovlstk]

I would not spend one additional hour with this gal . . . ever.

Good looking prostitute would probably be only $30-50 in Odesa.

I agree w/Mars. You're setting yourself up for a disaster if you want a serious relationship w/this women.

As for the local people who are so kind to you, if you want to understand them pay attention to how they treat each other, not how they treat a "wealthy American." It's very easy to get drunk on the attention but take the blue passport out of the picture and you're treated w/the same indifference as a local.

FWIW, whenever I dated a woman who wanted me to take her on a shopping trip, that was my cue to exit stage left. I don't believe a person can be rehabilitated or taught to behave differently - a woman who sees you as a cash cow will simply learn to be less crude in the future and instead of asking for $$ or gifts directly will subtly lead you in that direction.

[Jumper]

Nick,

How serious are you about her? you were about to drop her even a date before that as you wern't sure the connection was there and language barrier.
Would you buy an AW you dated for two weeks a $700 coat? it isn't about the money, or the actual *amount*,
it is about the principle of her asking or suggesting this in what seems very soon in the relationship.
since it doesn't appear you gave her indication of where you both stood as a couple?
( you did go back a second visit to her)

Granted i bought my (ex)wife many things.after our relationship was solid and we were a committed "couple?
but not when simply *dating*.
At that "dating" point we  gave each other small gifts of course as well,but the key there is each other? she was also buying
me some thougtful items..(and with money she really din't have to spend)
It's a grey area sometimes ,where dating someone,  turns into a committed couple

In this case from just reading your TR,, it seems you are dating her, not a comitted couple?
and in either case  the nudgiung you towards a large gift, seems inappropriate.
(in my opinion, far different than a committed couple, or fiancee situation, and you notice she needs ,or has been wishing for ,a new coat and offer to buy her one)

[BillyB]

Glad the shaving tip helped!

I think you and NickB are the only two who thought the shaving helped get kisses. The kisses were coming regardless if NickB shaved. They were coming to soften NickB up before asking him for a $700 coat. You also realized when women go shopping, they desire more than one item? Not even in the weathiest nation on Earth have I ever been on a date where a woman asked for a gift costing $100's of dollars. Where do some of those FSU get the nerve? I don't know if the RW assumes NickB is a rich man or Nick sold himself as a man with money in emails to the point she thinks a $700 coat is chump change.

[kievstar]

$700 is really not much for a coat. Also, maybe someone talks a lot about money and what they have.  When men starting talking money, career, and what they have it will lead to shopping.

[docetae]

$700 is really not much for a coat. Also, maybe someone talks a lot about money and what they have.  When men starting talking money, career, and what they have it will lead to shopping.

700$ is the price of a good winter coat in Canada. Prices for clothing are higher in Ukraine (only imported brand). Last year I bought one coat for my wife in Canada and brought it to her. and we had a fine supper with the money saved

[Vaughn]

My wife's comments on Facial hair were only priests and bums have it!

boaterguy - your wife and mine might just be cousins !   

[boaterguy]

I think you and NickB are the only two who thought the shaving helped get kisses. The kisses were coming regardless if NickB shaved. They were coming to soften NickB up before asking him for a $700 coat. You also realized when women go shopping, they desire more than one item? Not even in the weathiest nation on Earth have I ever been on a date where a woman asked for a gift costing $100's of dollars. Where do some of those FSU get the nerve? I don't know if the RW assumes NickB is a rich man or Nick sold himself as a man with money in emails to the point she thinks a $700 coat is chump change.

BillyB...Ya know what! The jest of your post tells me you will have a tough time in the FSU. I have always been the type of person to give the benefit of the doubt. If I hadn't done that I would not be married to my wonderful wife of over 5 years! My wife probably threw up every Red Flag in the book to someone who's perpsective is like yours. Giving the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean you have to open your wallet!

[boaterguy]

boaterguy - your wife and mine might just be cousins !   

Could be! It's amazing the in's and outs you learn year after year! I'm still learning!

[Misha]

She says there are good boots and coats there then she says "I want a new coat and the good ones cost about $700. Will you get one for me?". I say we will see what they look like first.

So, let me see if I understand this. You are with a woman, you feel no chemistry, she doesn't seem to be into you, you were going to stop seeing her, and when she asks you to go buy her a $700 coat your reaction is "we will see what they look like first"? Sorry, I will echo what others have said, I don't get it.

I would think that with a daughter in college her priorities would be elsewhere..

How often will she have a nice foreigner willing to buy her a $700 coat 

I'm getting that "Sugar Daddy" feel and it's not pleasant.

How does it go "it it looks like a duck, if it waddles like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, then it is most likely a duck." Based on what you have written, you do seem to be playing the "sugar daddy" role.

[BillyB]

I have always been the type of person to give the benefit of the doubt. My wife probably threw up every Red Flag in the book to someone who's perpsective is like yours.

It worked for you but do you really think this is good advice? Give the benefit of the doubt to a woman who throws up every red flag in the book?

If a RW asked me to buy her a $700 gift on the first few days of knowing her, my thoughts would be that she does not like me or respect me enough to ask that of me. I'm currently dating 3 RW locally and soon another local RW besides the RW I've met in the FSU. They seem to respect me enough to not ask for gifts like that and I do get kisses and hit home runs.

One local RW occasionally buys me dinner. I doubt she willl ever insult me by asking for a gift. I'll prove to her I'm a man in my own way and it doesn't cost a lot of money.

There's plenty of RW that don't need your money and have good enough manners not to ask for gifts from a person they barely know. With so many RW out there like that, you don't have to put up with ladies who's always trying to test you if you're a greedy man. That's the excuse they use if you decline to buy them something and they will accuse you of failing the test but of course give you a second chance to redeem yourself and buy her a high dollar item.

Some of these ladies got foreign men visiting them every other week besides dating RM. If all they got to put out is a few kisses and receive gifts, then they could have a nice wardrobe in no time with little effort only satisfying their sexual needs with their favorite lover/s. Some of those women are in on a scam. When the man leaves, she returns the brand new coat/shoes to the store and split the money with the store manager.

If by chance NickB has already talked of marriage and she is his fiancee, then she has some rights to start sharing his wallet. I hope Nick has not talked of marraige this early. Like most women, she may know how to soften up a man before getting him to do as she wishes.

[Boethius]

I assume Nick's story is after the fact.

I am somewhat appalled at the correlation between this woman and a whore.  The people of Ukraine are poor, and  they don't understand what $700 means.  Plus, I agree, it is not a lot of money.  You take the request as Westerners, that the woman is playing you for a sucker.  But most Ukrainians are caught in a society where less thn 1% of the populace has stolen all the wealth, and who are working for themselves, rather than the people.  No normal person, even if working, can afford a "nice" coat, in a culture where these things mean more than they do in the West. 

I would say this is a woman who has never known real hardship, but the request is not necessarily a red flag.