My trip to Ukraine - Part three

[Boethius]

You have his answer verbatim, Billy.  Now I will admit, I answered it first, but I did ask him, and his answer was exactly as I posted.  That is the wonder of being married for more than half your life.

If the KGB, poverty, and near death experiences couldn't break up our marriage, what makes you think some silly issue on an internet board could cause any trouble?

[GQBlues]

REALLY?? I think you know exactly!! :evil:  brave girl

Based on his report, they really didn't feed the beaver. Maybe just polished the bishop. It was a rhetorical question anyway, BG.

Something's not right from the get-go. The signals between them were always crossed. When NickB said he was going to let her go was the day she brought along her daugther to meet him. When she spoke of the silly coat, he never balked at the price but simply told her "well see what it looks like...". This tells me he was leading this woman on the entire way to feed his ego.

Boethius is absolutely right. NickB played the role perfectly. This is a large part why AMs never seek our FSUWs already living here, or women in a more opportuned countries. It has nothing to do with anything other than the fact their role playing won't work with these women.

[greg2654]

This tells me he was leading this woman on the entire way to feed his ego.

WHAT ?!?
This was a shakedown.
She knew Nick was leaving and needed to make a score before he left. Nick was being a gentleman by not telling her to take a short hop off a long bridge! If he didn't boink her then there's no harm, no foul.

Taking advantage of the desperate and impoverished? Let me give you a different example of that: Some downtrodden, divorced guy from middle America that hasn't been laid for over 6 months goes to the FSU and is met by "Elvira" dressed in full Hubba-Hubba gear and proceeds to grind on him for a week. (this is every guy, not necessarily Nick!) The fact that Nick could resist this and walk away makes him the ultimate in self control.

My hat's off to you Nick !

[BillyB]

You have his answer verbatim, Billy.  Now I will admit, I answered it first, but I did ask him, and his answer was exactly as I posted. That is the wonder of being married for more than half your life.
 

Okay. Next time you speak for your husband, I will keep it in mind that he may not have said anything because being married to him so long, you already know what he's going to say 100%. When he talked of men here shopping at a meat market and putting his head down, did he actually put his head down or you just assume he'd do that too since you know him so well?

You have his answer verbatim, Billy.    

I didn't see a "yes" or "no" answer. The only other answer to my question is that if he was single, he wouldn't date any women anywhere but that can't be true since he went out with you. Ask him about if he dated you and you asked for a $700 coat in the first few days. What's the dollar amount he's willing to pay for a good piece of meat who's not family.

Some have insinuated Nick may have bought that coat if there was sex the night before. Not honorable although possible but it would be basically a business deal between the two adults jockeying to see what they can get out of each other.

The sex tourism info you posted earlier  Boethius... we know. That's old news but you trying to associate it with the people at this forum is wrong. We are on the edge of going off track of Nicks T/R but but sex tourism and child porn is way off topic cause it hasn't happened according to Nick. Most men here are looking for a life partner. Some are married and their wives are not prostitutes. Google "International or World Sex Forum" and go and convince those men to change their ways. Also petition the Ukrainian government to reinstate the visa requirements to enter their country so there will be less exploitation of the women there since access going in will become more difficult and more costly but you'll probably be unsuccessful since the government likes the money coming into the country. Since you care so much about the ladies there, your efforts to protect them would be better served elsewhere.

[Gylden]

Writing just to bring maybe some different perspectives for reflection here, hope it may be of some help to someone in this type of situation.
These are just a few of my observations/comments from my perspective. I don’t blame people for trying to find good partners from other countries. (I think it is actually good for us in many ways) But let us examine some of the ways this phenomenon has been developing.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that, yes indeed the poorer countries around the world have been the focus (for the most) in these endeavors. (again no PHD in rocket science needed here, nice looking women with the prospect of a perceived better life, maybe more tolerant concerning looks/age in her man) Financial ability or success of the man is an expected element from the perspective of the lady, otherwise what is the point? From my own experience, I have met quite a few fantastic Russian and Ukrainian men, the sincerity and integrity in friendships equals or quite honestly exceed that of the western man.  As a result I just can’t buy into the idea that RM are no good and therefore RW must look for a WM. However I have been witness to many other types of foreign marriages which have nothing to do with the FSU. I do believe that people, both men and women have a certain romantic inclination for the foreigner.
What does it bring to your minds, when someone spends the night with another the first day in which they have met? Especially when they don’t speak the same language? (IMO it has almost only sexual attraction to do with, very difficult and highly improbable to develop any serious relationship in this situation) This is a difficult subject (common language) and one that IMO many men are confused about for the reasons that you can find online, many supposedly success stories (some of which by some miracle are true). Especially on the marriage or dating site itself! (hmmm… should probably lose some credibility there right?). 
At any rate this whole situation is ripe with uncertainties from both sides, as it is such a rather new phenomenon. Do we forget about the traditional values in society and just stay the night with people we have just met? (OK well this maybe has been going on in the west for some time, take a girl home from the club for some ONS thing).  Don’t forget the premise here is a wife not a ONS, don’t want to give the wrong impression right?  My conclusion is that it is difficult for both man and woman here. Should the man rent another apartment/hotel room for the woman to show his respect and his financial capabilities? Should the woman conclude that he is not the one she is looking for because he can’t afford a room for her?
To finish, IMO the biggest cause of misunderstandings in this FSU/WM endeavor is the environment which the “Agencies” have bred, i.e. The “covergirl” method which is used to portray the women. (photo shoot presentation in bathing suits, posing like models. Even the use of words such as models etc. in their names) Along with the propaganda which I am guessing women are fed from the agencies.
With all of this confusion/anticipation and such I think NickB, you made the right decision. You deserve respect here for it.  I don’t think she was or is a scammer per say, just had different expectations. Maybe it would have gone different if she was good with English?       

Good luck with the rest of your trip
 

[GQBlues]

Taking advantage of the desperate and impoverished? Let me give you a different example of that: Some downtrodden, divorced guy from middle America that hasn't been laid for over 6 months goes to the FSU and is met by "Elvira" dressed in full Hubba-Hubba gear and proceeds to grind on him for a week. (this is every guy, not necessarily Nick!) The fact that Nick could resist this and walk away makes him the ultimate in self control.

LOL, get serious....and which decent American woman, or western woman for that matter, would be silly enough to shack up in an apartment for a few days with a downtrodden, divorced guy from middle America that hasn't been laid for over 6 months? LOL.

Obviously the fact each of these ladies are packing suitcases ready to play house tells me NickB went to FSU to swim in sheets with a few ladies - likely- unbeknownst to any of the women he's meeting. Call that anyway you want, I am calling shaft a 'downtrodden, divorced guy from middle America that hasn't been laid for 6 months'.

There's a better than a good chance each of these ladies *think* they are more than just mere dates. Like a FSUW said above, dating is meeting in a cafe or restaurant someplace...

Look, he reported she's a bit too liberal in her expectations by day one. Literally complained about her since then. If she wasn't meeting his expectations then hanging around after day one (or make her hang around) is just stroking your ego amongst other things.

[greg2654]

LOL, get serious....and which decent American woman, or western woman for that matter, would be silly enough to shack up in an apartment for a few days with a downtrodden, divorced guy from middle America that hasn't been laid for over 6 months? LOL.

I'm totally serious. It happens every day of the week. BTW, I'm talking about WM going to the FSU.

[Mars]

Boethius, you are absolutely correct when you state that men go to FSU and date women that they could not date in their home country or in Western Europe.

However, you get a bit confused when you are blaming or castigating the men for doing this.

The reason that they are going to the FSU to seek a woman . . . is that these very women place their pictures and profiles with the various marriage agencies and dating websites.

So when you, your husband and others think it is terrible that WM go to FSU to seek women, there is a very simple way to stop it that has nothing at all to do with WM.

That is to simply stop FSU women from posting their profiles.
When FSU women stop advertising themselves and allowing themselves to become involved with WM; then WM will certainly stop viewing those profiles (since they would not exist) and planning trips to FSU.

Thus, while you, your husband and others would like to portray the FSU ladies as victims of WM; it is a hollow argument since the women themselves have the absolute means to stop it.

[GQBlues]

I'm totally serious. It happens every day of the week. BTW, I'm talking about WM going to the FSU.

So was I.

This T/R reminds me of the one written 5 years ago by an AM travelling on a WOVO trip to Tver. The very first day he arrived, there was not a doubt in his mind his virtual inamorata was no other than Ice Princess herself. He knew it, everyone knew it, the taxi driver knew it.

What did he do? He went along to whatever he planned despite the fact. They went to dinner, bowling, etc...with a couple of her friends in tow every single time. There was even a time where he wondered if this was cultural that women be chapereoned on every single date. She took him shopping and despite his better judgment, though not as pricey as NickB's $700 coat, he paid for a top, blouse, etc...

Why? Because the guy couldn't say 'no' to a pretty face.

Then the whopper of the story came when she spotted a nice sweater that cost $350.00. This was on the 5th day of his trip. He fudged because up until then he couldn't even get a smooch from the gal, let alone some serious skin action...he balked and told her so. Dismayed, she told him straight up, "Buy me that sweater and I'll have sex with you tonight!"

He pays for it. Takes her out to dinner along with her friends, again. Afterwards, they go to his apartment. He was writing how, after she showered, he took one himself and he left the bathroom door slightly open so he can 'watch' her to see if she tries to skip out on him. Apparently she had to cross the bathroom on the way to the front door.

Now, how pathetic is that - you asked? Which one of these nutjobs is short of a few screws? She gets a new sweater and a load, he gets to feed the beaver. You decide which one is 'wrong'.

Remember now, this was a guy 'looking for a wife'.

[greg2654]

You decide which one is 'wrong'.

Neither was wrong because they traded goods for services and both were satisfied.
In Nicks case also, no trade was made and no wrong was done by either side and they parted (if my understanding is correct) without hard feelings. There was no harm in the woman asking for a coat and no wrong done by Nick in refusing.

What chaps my fanny are the insinuations that Nick (and by extension ALL AM) are exploiting these women for not caving in to unreasonable demands. Nick kept his self control and didn't fall to her demands and for THIS he was being roasted.

[GQBlues]

Neither was wrong because they traded goods for services and both were satisfied.

We can agree to disagree then. The man went to Russia in hope of, and in search of, a 'wife'. I presumed he did his due diligence in his correspondence with her during the course of their virtual association prior to the trip. Sadly, in the end, getting laid became his core and lone pre-occupation. Not how the woman was treating him. Not how she took him shopping. Not how she was listed in a marriage agency. Not how she had to have her friends be wined and dined in addition to herself...

....but rather whether or not he'll get to boink her in the end. He easily departed with the money.

In Nicks case also, no trade was made and no wrong was done by either side and they parted (if my understanding is correct) without hard feelings. There was no harm in the woman asking for a coat and no wrong done by Nick in refusing.

What chaps my fanny are the insinuations that Nick (and by extension ALL AM) are exploiting these women for not caving in to unreasonable demands. Nick kept his self control and didn't fall to her demands and for THIS he was being roasted.

Day One
"It seems she has been studying and has loosened up a little. Now she can say a few words and is using her hands and face to communicate. Great! We're getting somewhere. After dinner we retire to the apartment and all is good. Next day she's off to work and I'm off to explore more."

Day Two
"A nice meal, good wine and back to the apartment. We chit chat a while and *my initial impression that she is out to get what she can is reinforced.* She asked several times if i could help her with this and that. The next 4 days only make the feeling stronger.

Something that bothers me is she will not kiss me or allow me to kiss her. I have never experienced that before and I do not like it one bit. I won't even mention what it reminds me of. It will become a major stumbling block. I have questioned her about it and she says that "you are doing the right things". What ever that means. Forcing my tongue between her lips (that won't happen again)? Hand holding, snuggling, sleeping almost on top of each other stark naked but.. no kisses. Very strange."

Day Three, Four and Five
"After 5 days together Helen went back home for the night to check on her flat and shop for groceries for her daughter (19). She will return tonight after work. I had plenty of time to think last night and I've reaffirmed my original thoughts that we are not that compatible. We have almost nothing in common. We think differently on many things and I still get the overwhelming feeling that she's looking for someone to support her and *the biggest block..she speaks almost no English*"

..and NOT the fact she asked him to get her a $700.00 coat.

The dinger is...he added:
"I have gone thru my list of woman to meet and looked at them with different set of criteria this time. Which are women I would truly have a chance at being in a serious relationship with. The top of the list is Lena. We have a few things in common, she's easy to talk with, no kids at home, she's got snap when we talk on the phone and her English is great"

WTF? Then why shack up with Helen if LENA was at the top of the list? What if Helen dug her tongue deep down his throat when they kissed and moaned in perfect English, would he had bought the coat with matching boots? Would Lena fall off of the prized hierarchy? He keeps saying it isn't the $700.00 that was the problem (you boys seem to be so pre-occupied with).

Day One he had a valid notion she isn't what he came there for...then why the trivialities of the ensuing 6 days?

You boys can pin this on the women, and thus, I do hope many of you do get what you come for in FSU.

[greg2654]

Day One he had a valid notion she isn't what he came there for...then why the trivialities of the ensuing 6 days?

Why not? It sure beats going to the art museum by yourself. They went out for 6 days, saw the city, had fun, played house. Where's the harm? If she had pounded him through the bedboards then this story might have a different ending but she didn't. So again - No Harm No Foul

[dogspot]

Greg, don't you know? If your ladies are not staying in the same hotel and your screening process isn't methodical and more like an interview than a date, you are doing everything wrong. Some guys feel if things aren't done as they have done them, then there is something wrong with the guy. That is what I see with most of GQ's arguments.

Nick, I see nothing wrong with your actions. You are dating and you realized the gal you were seeing, regardless if she was your #1 choice or not, was not the right one for you. You moved on. No harm, no foul.

There are plenty of great ladies out there who are not expecting gifts. I have dated two ladies in the FSU, both age 25 and both in Russia, and neither of them wanted anything from me except to be with me. My current girlfriend even insisted on paying for many of the concerts and events we attended during my last visit. I will also use the example of the much needed umbrella on a cold, rainy autumn day in St. Petersburg. Without an umbrella during a downpour, my girl and I ducked into a small shop selling high quality umbrellas. She asked my opinion on which one *we* should buy, and when I pulled out some Rubles to pay the clerk, she insisted that I put my money away so she could pay for the umbrella.

I realize that some guys might think I am not a *real man* or a gentleman for allowing my girl to pay for our umbrella. But in her eyes, I am a real man for allowing her to contribute and not treating her like she is less than me.

[Boethius]

GQ, good points, and I agree.

Billy, I posted “He would never be in that position.”   I don’t know how much clearer I can be.  When I quoted my husband verbatim, I so stated.  

I never posted men here are sex tourists.  My response was directed at AJ’s statement that there are not "hordes of men" going to Ukraine to meet women.  That is not true, and that's the reason for the response.

Mars, is it okay to sleep with the teen aged prostitutes you see advertised on craiglist because no matter how they ended up in the situation, they willingly come to your room, and it is “their choice”?  They could just stop anytime, right?  Is it okay to buy drugs from a dealer because he has chosen to sell drugs?  The violence your drug use causes in neighbourhoods is irrelevant.  People don’t need to live there, and they could just get rid of dial a dopers if they really wanted to, couldn’t they?  It is okay to pay an illegal immigrant one third what an American would receive for the same work, because it is his choice to be an illegal, right?   He/she can just go home instead of cutting your lawn, or building your house, or cleaning your house, or taking care of your kids, correct?

Would it be okay to hire an American at less than a working wage because there are no jobs in his area, even if your contract profit remains unchanged?  After all, why should you be affected by the poor schmuck’s inability to get a job?  His kids are hungry but he can find another job too, or feed them soda and macaroni.  You need that extra profit to fund trips to meet all those nice FSU women.

Where does morality begin and end?  Where does the exploitation of others who are desperate begin and end?  We all have our own lines in the sand.  Mine evidently is different from yours.

My husband's response (and for Billy's benefit, I will note this quote is verbatim):

I know my country from the macro to the micro levels.  I know how they live, how they think, and how they have been destroyed.  Perhaps some of these men don't.

On Wall Street, they call specimens such as these "vultures".

If you have half a brain, you know these women are advertising because they are desperate.  If someone were dying for a piece of bread, would you say “Here it is, you can have it if you let me sleep with your daughter”?  Perhaps our notions of what is normal and decent differ.  Taking advantage of people where, with $100 in your pocket, you can be a boss, and justifying it by saying “they can remove their profiles at any time” is a perverted notion of what is decent.  

Finally, this has nothing to do with the coat or the money.  GQ got it too, so you may as well count him in with "the ladies".  

[brave girl]

Sadly you tell the truth but they NEVER listen 
It is impossible!!    brave girl

[BillyB]

Ask him about if he dated you and you asked for.......

“He would never be in that position.”

I tried to make the question simple and I don't think I can make the question any simpler so I'm done. I hope you're not answering for him again. Since he would never put himself into a postion of dating you, I guess your relationship with him doesn't exist. Is there even a real Ukrainian man out there giving his opinion on this subject based off words that came out of his own mouth?

Brave Girl, did you say something? I can't hear you!

[dogspot]

Brave Girl, did you say something? I can't hear you!

She's pretty easy to ignore...without using the ignore feature. 

[Boethius]

Or perhaps, Billy, his sense of morality is more acutely formed than is yours.

I have 3 beautiful children who are the evidence of his existence.  Nothing, including those children, came to us easily.  But I would not change anything, because it made me appreciate everything I have.  I can never take him for granted, because I know what it is like to be madly in love yet unfulfilled because of circumstances beyond your control, to be alone, yet not alone.

My husband came from an "undesirable element", (that was part of the Soviet definition) and was surrounded by informants before he started grade school.  Marrying a foreigner made things worse.  I would hazard a guess no one here was called in for questioning by the KGB ever, let alone during so called "glasnost'".  My husband was.  I was scheduled to go to Moscow for my visa when he was called in.  He told me if he was gone when I got back, to go home and "tell the world our story".  

After several years, I was kicked out of the country, and not allowed to return until the final years of "glasnost'".  Before I came back (it took 8 months to arrange my visa), my husband was called for a second term (7 months) of military service.  This was unheard of for someone his age - his previous service was not yet far enough inthe past.  He was assigned to the Chernobyl' zone.  He didn't tell me, he just told me he'd be gone for military service (he came back the day before I arrived).  When I asked why he didn't tell me he'd been at Chernobyl', he said "I knew someone would tell you, and I wanted to know who it would be."

The purpose of assigning him to Chernobyl' was to break our marriage - not their first attempt, but it was their last - assuming I would not want my future children to be affected, possibly, by radiation. (It was common among Ukrainian commies to divorce for this very reason.)

At age 14, my FIL took my husband on a road trip across Ukraine and Russia so that he could really learn and know the country he lived in.  My husband had to pay the bribes, and to react to certain situations.  All of this was done to ensure he remained unarrested and alive.  Because he lived in acid, he lived by his wits.  God gave him the gift of being able to meet someone, and know, immediately who this person really is, whether they will harm or betray you, or whether they are trustworthy.  When he arrived here and would size someone up negatively, I would joke "That is the result of your rotten Soviet upbringing."  Because really, the consequences here of trusting the wrong person, or of coming across someone who is not, as my husband says, a "well wisher" are not even remotely similar to what they were there.  But, he always, and I mean, always proved correct in his assessments.  

God gave him this gift so that he could survive, and be God's gift to me.

So, that, coupled with his high moral character, are why he would never be in that position.  

[NickB]

Lot of good comments but I think there is a little confusion.

I've been stereotyped because I'm a western male in Ukraine.

Unless you're here and know every nuance of the interaction between Helen and I you can only guess at what is happening.
I am not exploiting Helen or Katya. They both were/are with me under their own free will and all have had a good time.

Yesterday Katya and I went to a little restaurant around the corner. It was very small with only a few tables. When we entered at 3:00pm in the afternoon it was full with only one table left. What was interesting about the restaurant was that it was full of mafia! I felt that they were not your typical business men and she agreed. She said she could tell by looking at their face.
They looked too wild, too much like they would ice your ass and put you in the back of their car and not business men that would be eating in a very expensive restaurant with leather place mats. I had pork ribs with potatoes and grilled veggies. She had blue cheese stuffed beef and shared my veggies. One glass of wine each and the bill was 619rph or $79. The food was good but not that good.
Interesting.

We walked and talked and wound up downtown where we had coffee at a little place who's name I forgot. We went to the grocery and picked up some wine, tea and water and made our way back to the flat. I opened the wine and we chatted more about life in Ukraine. We started talking about dancing and I opened my laptop and put on some music. She stared moving to the beat and before long we were dancing. I was a pretty good dancer in my day and a few glasses of wine later I was bustin out the moves again! We laughed and danced and had a great time until bed time. She had work in the morning.
She just left for work and I'm here thinking what I'll do today. The sun is shining so I think I'll walk down to the port area and try to find a cafe with an ocean view to have lunch.

[Misha]

Where does morality begin and end?  Where does the exploitation of others who are desperate begin and end?  We all have our own lines in the sand.  Mine evidently is different from yours.

Likewise, definitions of "desperate" can also vary. The impression that I get is that all women in Ukraine or the FSU are somehow desperate. Yes, this would not characterize most of the people that I met over the years in Russia. The majority had apartments or lived with their parents who had apartment, they had jobs and were quite content for the most part with their lives. The fact of the matter is that the women don't have to marry a foreigner. I did not meet my wife through an agency and she was not "desperate" by any means. However, she wanted a good husband and fortunately she fell in love and I met  her criteria for good husband material. Her friends and family of course warned her of the dangers of evil foreigners and how she should not go for fear of becoming a "sex slave"   Luckily, she we was capable of judging me for who I was and decided that I was worth the risk  

To sum up, then, I would say that you are seemingly and IMHO incorrectly presenting women of the FSU as more "desperate" than they are in reality.  

[GQBlues]

You have a bright future as a politician, dogspot. Like Dodd, Frank, and Pelosi, you'd make a fine Democrat.

I previously said:

In the end, much of this experience is highly subjective. What works for one doesn't necessarily mean will work for another. So all the silly debates about approaches means nothing to the casual observer unless they have a full understanding of who they are and an appreciation of what needs to be done. Every plan is the right plan unless you phuck it up.

To which you replied:

Great post GQ. Thanks for sharing your story with us new folk. I think your last paragraph pretty well sums up this debate and your own experience sheds light on your POV. Personally, there is no way I would've put forth the effort to fly all those ladies in AND put them all up in hotels for the night. Bravo! I guess I am just a WOVO guy who will never be able to pull off a WMVM (and hopefully will never have to). 

But now say:

Greg, don't you know? If your ladies are not staying in the same hotel and your screening process isn't methodical and more like an interview than a date, you are doing everything wrong. Some guys feel if things aren't done as they have done them, then there is something wrong with the guy. That is what I see with most of GQ's arguments.

If you're going to make a point, at the very least be consistent.

[Zmejka]

I totally agree with BillyB, Daveman and other people who found that logic of Boethius and brave girl just weird. I can't understand why they can't understand that such offers to buy something expensive from a person she knows for a few days - it's not acceptable, it shows at least lack of selfrespect. That has nothing to do with "dating in poor countries", it has everything to do with the character and inner qualities of women. If there're sex tourists (demand) - there're women who welcome them (supply). Why to give 100% blame just to one side?
Of course it's always good to mention "ah, they, rich westerns, come to poor FSU countries just to shop there like at the meat market" but there're everythere bad and good apples (people), why making such generalizations? People from both sides search for love, commitment, there come sex-tourists (bad) for decent girls (good), there come decent men (good) to scammers (bad) etc. Here i didn't notice that a man came initially to "shop around", and i did notice the attitude of a woman, so i put it in the position "good-bad", not saying that the woman is surely a scammer, but at least she lived the whole her life without that westerner in her life, and why such a need to ask for gifts in the first days? As i told that has everything to do with her inner qualities, i consider them to be not of a high quality. There's no need to mentiong "poor conditions" etc, indeed - like westerners "own" fsu women something only due to fact they (as everybody else) want happiness and loving relationship. Nobody owns anything to each other, everything should come due to mutual agreement, and i don't consider to be that agreement if a woman demands and a man is there only to pay.

There was a nice discussion recently on a forum of russian brides and wifes in the USA, about old cars. A woman almost expressed her disgust to the fact that her not-yet-husband didn't want to buy a new car for her but offered to use an used car for the first time (the woman just got her driving license), she was angry for 3 days at her not-yet-husband only for suggesting that and eventually she expressed her set of mind in "i was not born to drive that old car, i thought only working people use public transport" and "why in general get married if you can't afford anything and should work hard?" Quite resembles the attitude of somebody who would demand $700 coats after a few days. Of course that forum member can be a troll, a Friday joke, but nevertheless such women with such set of minds do exist.

[Zmejka]

After several years, I was kicked out of the country, and not allowed to return until the final years of "glasnost'".  

When was the last time you or your husband visited Ukraine or Russia? According to the phrase of your husband
"If you have half a brain, you know these women are advertising because they are desperate" you both are still in the years of "glasnost" or "perestroika" if you still think all these women are desperate. If it could be true in 90s, now at least half of these women are quite ok with their financial position and what they're really looking for is to creat a family. So please don't exaggerate, there's a HUGE difference between then and now. And i'm talking from my own dating experience from 4 years ago and there're endless examples of the newest experience on different women forums dedicated to searching and marrying a foreigner.

[Boethius]

When was the last time you or your husband visited Ukraine or Russia?

July/August.

I'll be sure to let him know the economic situation has improved markedly since then.

[dogspot]

If you're going to make a point, at the very least be consistent.

 

GQ, Did you really think that my first quote was actually complimenting you on your methods? No, no...I was complimenting your post for *finally* adding some validity to your argument after pages and pages of dancing around the discussion. I was not saying that your methods are better than anyone else's.

My second quote was stating that time and time again you are quick to pass judgement on a guy who does things slightly different than you. The fact is, Nick didn't do things much different than you. His method of WMVM might be slightly different than yours but it is no more or no less "right".

You seem to have an issue with the fact that Nick spent time with a lady that he wanted to find a spark with but hadn't yet. There is no problem with this. It might have been a mistake by him but it was an honest mistake and I really don't think he was leading her on.

By the way, I also agree with what you said in this quote:
 

In the end, much of this experience is highly subjective. What works for one doesn't necessarily mean will work for another. So all the silly debates about approaches means nothing to the casual observer unless they have a full understanding of who they are and an appreciation of what needs to be done. Every plan is the right plan unless you phuck it up.

...but I wonder why you don't always agree with yourself.

Obviously the fact each of these ladies are packing suitcases ready to play house tells me NickB went to FSU to swim in sheets with a few ladies - likely- unbeknownst to any of the women he's meeting. Call that anyway you want, I am calling shaft a 'downtrodden, divorced guy from middle America that hasn't been laid for 6 months'.

Every plan is the right plan...

There's a better than a good chance each of these ladies *think* they are more than just mere dates. Like a FSUW said above, dating is meeting in a cafe or restaurant someplace...

..or flying in from another city, staying in the same hotel where all the other ladies are staying and waiting their *turn* to meet with the nobel one? C'mon man...get real! You are not much different than the OP.